During his testimony, Rob Pennock used this quote in court in support of the proposition that explicitly religious concerns are part of the substance of ID. The quote is from Nancy Pearcey, in her recent book “Total Truth”. I had not seen it before, and it definitely deserves more attention:
“[D]esign theory demonstrates that Christians can sit in the supernaturalist’s ‘chair’ even in their professional lives, seeing the cosmos through the lens of a comprehensive biblical worldview.” (Nancy Pearcey, Total Truth pp. 204-205)
Pennock argued that for ID proponents, intelligent design is intended to scientifically prove the supernatural, moving it into the realm of scientific fact.
34 Comments
Ed Darrell · 28 September 2005
In other words, they want to be able to throw themselves from the temple parapet and have God intervene so they float to the ground. There is warning in scripture against such testing of God.
Sometimes I worry that these people really have not read the book they idolize so much.
Of course, that book also warns against such idolization.
Sheesh.
shafiq · 29 September 2005
Updates on intelligent designer available!
http://sqsme.blogspot.com
Moses · 29 September 2005
Andrew · 29 September 2005
As crank.net would say: illucid.
'Rev Dr' Lenny Flank · 29 September 2005
the pro from dover · 29 September 2005
back in the 60's that would have definitively qualified you for space cadet status. Wasn't that part of a cheech and chong comedy routine? I expected "is that you Dave?" at any moment.
'Rev Dr' Lenny Flank · 29 September 2005
KiwiInOz · 29 September 2005
No man - its Dave!
Alencon · 30 September 2005
Schmitt. · 30 September 2005
Oolong · 1 October 2005
You folks are being commented upon over at Right Reason (this thread actually). Here's the URL if you want to join in
http://rightreason.ektopos.com/archives/2005/09/why_sciencetype.html#more
Cheers,
Oolong
vampire killer · 1 October 2005
Ralph Waldo Emerson: "All I have seen has taught me to trust the Creator for all I have not seen."
Nick (Matzke) · 1 October 2005
'Rev Dr' Lenny Flank · 1 October 2005
'Rev Dr' Lenny Flank · 1 October 2005
vampire killer · 1 October 2005
United States Supreme Court 1963, The case of School District of Abington Township v. Schempp: The State may not establish a "religion of secularism" in the sense of affirmativaly opposing or showing hostility to religion, thus preferring those who believe in no religion to those who do believe.
It might well be said that one's education is not complete without the study of comparative religion or the history of religion and its relationship to the advancement of civilization.
It certainly may be said that the Bible is worthy of study for its literary and historic qualities. Nothing we have said here indicates that such study of the Bible or of religion, when presented objectlively as part of a secular program of education, may not be effected consistantly with the First Amendment.
vampire killer · 1 October 2005
United States Supreme Court 1952, Zorach v. Clauson: We are a religious people and our institutions presuppose a Supreme Being...When the state encourages religious instruction or cooporates with religious authorities by adjusting the schedule of public events to sectarian needs, it follows the best of our traditions.
For it then respects the religious nature of our peolpe and accomodates the public service to their spiritual needs.
'Rev Dr' Lenny Flank · 1 October 2005
'Rev Dr' Lenny Flank · 1 October 2005
vampire killer · 1 October 2005
Overturned? I don't think so. You sight a ruling from 150 years ago that has been obviously overturned. Many think that our government is opposed to religion in education, and that teaching ID or creationism along side evolution is promoting a "particular religious view." Read your history.
vampire killers · 1 October 2005
Fundies? Our founding fathers must have been fundies too. To quote Bruce Hornsby " That's just the way it is."
qetzal · 1 October 2005
'Rev Dr' Lenny Flank · 2 October 2005
'Rev Dr' Lenny Flank · 2 October 2005
'Rev Dr' Lenny Flank · 2 October 2005
Nick (Matzke) · 2 October 2005
It might be useful if people actually went and read Zorach v. Clauson, I don't think it contradicts more recent decisions, it was a case that upheld a policy whereby parents could excuse students from public school classes to go attend religious instruction on private ground.
Lurker · 2 October 2005
Francis J. Beckwith writes,
"Thus, the falsity of materialism helps support the truth of Christianity."
This is the danger of acting for the sake of apologetics, because there is precisely nothing to prevent FJB from excusing ID thus:
"The falsity of any naturalistic science helps support the truth of Christianity."
Except, maybe, the obvious impropriety of the statement. It is becoming clearer everyday that this is the sole aim of ID: to promote the lie that naturalistic sciences are a defeater to Christian theism. Even if that were true, FJB ignores (despite all of his praises for sound philosophical argumentation) the logical truth that defeating a defeater does not automatically render a promotion. Thus, one can reject as implausible FJB's excuse that ID exists to "help support the truth of Christianity". Rather, the more plausible explanation is that ID is merely a program designed specifically for the purposes of forcing others to "the truth of Christianity". It does so, not by removing the alleged obstacle of materialism, but by obfuscating the flaws in the ID-promoted worldview, all for the sake of apologetics. In this regard, FJB has already decided which flaws he would prefer to obscure, and truth be damned. For instance, the notion that any naturalistic science is equivalent to materialism is equivalent to an obstacle to Christian theism is one such peculiarities of a flawed worldview. To think that people need the help of FJB to come to Christ by his heroic overthrow of a specific naturalistic science is also rather peculiar. To require others understand how FJB thinks and believes, via imposing bad policies through legal / government endorsement, is another peculiarity of a flawed worldview. Make no mistake, this is the intended effect of Dover advocates like Buckingham.
So, in the end, the natural question is what is the primary motivation of people like FJB. Is it to save Christianity or is it to obscure the flaws in their particular version of Christianity? One has to believe that Christianity needs saving, I suppose, especially in a country where the large majority of its citizens are Christians. But, let me offer this: if reinstituting the design argument (even an allegedly "modest" version of one) is going to save Christianity, then it is already in a bad place. In particular, it will require the Herculean feat of convincing people of the scientific evidence of Design (in particular the Design of the Christian God, and not of some ET from Outer Space). I believe, FJB, to date, has not been willing to stake his reputation on the evidence presented by his peers thus far. Now, isn't that interesting...
Ed Darrell · 3 October 2005
For millions of Christians there are not two chairs. For Darwin and other faithful Christians of his era, their faith started with the assumption -- faith-based, not "proven" as science -- that God is the motivating force and creator of everything in the universe. From this faith foundation naturally flowed the idea that one could observe God's methods by observing nature, and further, that what is observed in nature is an accurate and true manifestation of God, God's work and intentions. Some faithful make the error of creating a deceitful role for God, as was laid out in the book Oomphalos in the early 19th century. Christian commentators then dismissed the idea that God created a new, but "old-looking" Earth because that view is contrary to the nature of God.
Schaeffer may well have made the Oomphalos error. That does not make Schaeffer correct, nor does it make evolution wrong -- it just points out that even very good theologians can make serious theological errors.
Science and law should not be built on serious theological error. If there are two chair with different, conflicting views of the universe, it is because somebody has moved the right chair. Put it back.
Oh, one could make a case that the view is better from a different chair -- but that case would have to be made with facts and data, with observations in nature.
Clearly that's not a chair ID advocates care to occupy.
PvM · 4 October 2005
frank schmidt · 4 October 2005
Ah, Beckwith, who has previously posted here that the civil rights movement was religous and not secular, based on the language of Martin Luther King's "Letter from a Birmingham Jail," conveniently ignoring that it is addressed to anti-civil rights clergy who were telling him to go slow when pushing for integration. Now he says that the obviously monotheistic, specifically Christian underpinnings of IDC aren't really based on religion.
I'd say it was amazing, but in Beckwith's case, it's entirely commonplace.
David Heddle · 4 October 2005
'Rev Dr' Lenny Flank · 4 October 2005
vampire killer · 7 October 2005
David, even most Bible critics would agree that the author of Genesis meant 24 hour periods when referring to the days in Gen 1.
'Rev Dr' Lenny Flank · 7 October 2005