But things only got better..."You can teach creationism without its being Christianity"
— Dover Board Member Heather Geesey
Even the judge seemed confused by the testimony and proceeded with questioning the witness himself.Geesey testified that she recalled Buckingham and fellow board member Alan Bonsell discussing intelligent design at the June 2004 meetings. That contradicted her sworn deposition, in which she said board members hadn't named what alternatives should be presented to balance evolutionary theory. When Walczak questioned the discrepancy, Geesey said her letter to the editor, along with Eveland's, had jogged her memory.
Interestingly enough Geesey could not even define the concept of Intelligent DesignAt the end of cross-examination, Jones was not satisfied and he began to question the witness himself. Saying he was confused, Jones asked her to explain specifically how the letters triggered her memory. "I ask you because intelligent design is not mentioned in either letter," he said.
Fascinating stuffn court Friday, she agreed with Walczak that she hadn't thought much about the concept and said she had taken the word of fellow board members Buckingham and Bonsell. "Bill and Alan said it was a scientific theory," she said.
Quote of the day "I don't know what you could possibly hope to achieve." --- Judge John E. Jones III, to Dover lawyer Patrick Gillen on Friday. Gillen had asked Jones if he could question school board member Heather Geesey after cross-examination ended and Jones himself had questioned Geesey, telling her he was confused by her testimony.
35 Comments
Steve S · 29 October 2005
In the immortal words of Karl, that's Frickin Awesome.
Jack Krebs · 29 October 2005
PvM · 29 October 2005
Since Buckingham used the Oxytocin defense, perhaps Geesey could use the twinkie defense?
plum · 29 October 2005
"I don't know what you could possibly hope to achieve."
I think we can all see where this is heading. With each passing day, the judge seems more and more sympathetic to the plaintiffs.
I predict that the Christian right will wait for the inevitable ruling in favor of the plaintiffs to come down and then will start sliming John E. Jones III like there's no tomorrow. Doesn't he realize that the US is founded on Christian principles?
Also: Isn't there a superhero whose secret identity is John Jones, a.k.a. J'onn J'onzz, THE MARTIAN MANHUNTER? It's obvious to any God-fearing American that this judge is an alien implant.
Sir_Toejam · 29 October 2005
Steve S · 29 October 2005
Oh, great. Look who just ruined Halloween. You know you're like the A-bomb! Everybody's laughin' and havin' a good time until you show up. Then boom! everything's dead.
Steve S · 29 October 2005
Jeremy · 29 October 2005
Who wrote "The Moon Rulez #1" on MY FRICKIN CAR?!
Michael Hopkins · 29 October 2005
K.E. · 29 October 2005
John · 30 October 2005
"Bill and Alan said it was a scientific theory"
The blind leading the blind...
Hyperion · 30 October 2005
What really scares me is the part of her letter where she talks about America being a Christian nation. It scares the hell out of me, I mean literally freezes my blood:
"Our country was founded on Christian beliefs and principles."
I've heard that phrase before, but only on the History Channel, on black and white film, in German.
Steve S · 30 October 2005
Gott Mit Uns.
Pastor Bentonit · 30 October 2005
Ssssssh! Don´t invoke the LAW... ;-)
Stuart Weinstein · 30 October 2005
""Bill and Alan said it was a scientific theory," she said."
Well there you have it, dumb and dumber,
tweedle-dee, tweedle dumb..
Quite the authorities
Finback · 30 October 2005
We could ONLY HOPE the judge was J'onn J'onzz. Then he'd just read everyone's mind, and one peek into Behe and his ilk, well.. says it all, really.
Michael I · 30 October 2005
Behe and his ilk have minds?
:)
mark duigon · 30 October 2005
Maybe it's that thick Dover accent that makes "Intelligent Design" sound like "Creationism" to people from out of town.
'Rev Dr' Lenny Flank · 30 October 2005
ega · 30 October 2005
I read somewhere that the motives were important in this case. IDists in the US clearly have religious motives, it's inescapable. Ummm, isnt it?
Albion · 30 October 2005
These people seem to be embracing ignorance to an alarming degree for a bunch of school-board members. She's happy to get behind a concept that's rejected by the scientific meainstream on the word of a couple of colleagues without bothering to lift a finger to check its scientific status.
If this is an example of the sort of critical thinking they're expecting their schoolkids to use when faced with this issue (or indeed, any issue), it speaks volumes for what they're really trying to achieve. The argument from authority run wild.
Registered User · 30 October 2005
If this is an example of the sort of critical thinking they're expecting their schoolkids to use when faced with this issue (or indeed, any issue), it speaks volumes for what they're really trying to achieve.
Of course, we're way way way beyond "if" in late 2005.
These ID peddlers are morons, professional liars and/or reality-denying fanatics. All that matters is the outcome: spread the Word, sell some Bibles, affirm their religious beliefs, and everyone else can rot in hell (gays and commie atheists, especially).
Rubes like this Geesey character simply cannot understand how anyone could find her position on these matters so revolting. After all, Geesey knows that the Bible is scientifically accurate because her preacher told her that it was. She knows that the US is founded on Christian principles because she read that in a magazine endorsed by her church.
Is anyone claiming that these Christians could be wrong or misrepresenting the truth about anything? Geesey is flabbergasted by the possibility.
I mean, yeah, Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggart got in trouble -- but they weren't Christians when they did those things that they did. How does Geesey know that?
Her preacher told her so. And she read it in a magazine endorsed by her church.
Arne Langsetmo · 31 October 2005
Frank J · 1 November 2005
In fact you can't teach creationism, or ID, or the designer-free phony "critical analysis," with it being Christianity, or Judaism, or any religion that says "thou shalt not bear false witness."
shenda · 1 November 2005
Sir Toejam wrote:
"In the end, it doesn't matter what Judge Jones rules. All that matters is what the Supreme Court does with the case."
I (a non lawyer) strongly doubt this case will be appealed by TMLC for several reasons:
1. Several key defense witnesses may have perjured themselves. This would taint any appeal.
2. The testimony of the defenses expert witnesses actually harmed their case rather than helping it. This weakens any appeal based upon a ruling that "misconstrues the facts" of the case.
3. The DI will put whatever pressure they can to have TMLC not appeal the case. However, given the current tension between these two, the DI may have no influence.
4. Given how badly the defense has gone for this case, and given the ample legal precedent on Establishment cases, Judge Jones should be able to make a ruling that is very "appeal proof".
5. Money. While the TMLC is doing this case pro bono, the Dover Board may be held liable for the plaintiffs legal fees. Appealing the case will only increase this potential liability.
On the other hand, should Judge Jones make a ruling in favor of the defense (highly unlikely), the plaintiffs can make a strong appeal.
I am cautiously optimistic that we may end up with a major win; a ruling against ID without an appeal. This would make future ID cases harder to win or appeal.
Frank J · 1 November 2005
Shenda,
With the caveat that IANAL, here's my pessimistic 2c:
A Dover loss could actually be better for the DI in the long run. Sure, they would have preferred if Dover and other followers abandoned the direct references to ID and used the DI's designer-free strategy in the first place. But a Dover loss may be what it takes to get IDers and even classic creationists to see that a much sneakier approach is necessary. Granted, the "big tent" will still be unmistakable with unabashed YECs raving about designer-free "don't ask, don't tell" approaches, and pro-common descent IDers making excuses for YECs. But "big tent" association alone might not be enough to keep a few sentences of misrepresentation or a phony "critical analysis" out of public school science class on "establishment" grounds.
Frank J · 1 November 2005
Note, By "Dover loss" I mean a Dover Board loss, and mainstream science win.
Sir_Toejam · 1 November 2005
shenda · 1 November 2005
"uh, I didn't write that."
Ooops..... It was 'Rev Dr' Lenny Flank. My apologies to you both.
Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Mea Maxima Culpa!
Shenda
'Rev Dr' Lenny Flank · 1 November 2005
'Rev Dr' Lenny Flank · 1 November 2005
Frank J · 2 November 2005
'Rev Dr' Lenny Flank · 2 November 2005
'Rev Dr' Lenny Flank · 2 November 2005
Tom3 · 9 November 2005
The judge hasn't ruled on the Dover case yet...but THE VOTERS HAVE! All 8 school board members up for election were soundly defeated.
Maybe you can teach Intellichimp Design Cretinism without Christianity, but you cannot teach it without GOD. There must be a supernatural being to intelligently design the universe, no ordinary mortal could do it. Therefore, Intellichimp Design Cretinism is religion, since it requires a supernatural being.
Kansas Board of Education members are going to be nervous this morning...they're NEXT!!