Eugenie Scott in Virginia

I looked down the list of speaking engagements a bit, and saw something about the Greer-Heard Forum. The debaters are Dembski and Michael Ruse. I've read Ruse's account of the Arkansas trial in the Science & Creationism essay collection edited by Ashley Montagu, and he comes across extremely well.

It ought to be a fine debate. I wish I could be there :)

Salvador: First of all, I do thank you for something you said in the article in Nature, "College professors need to be very aware of how they talk about things such as purpose, chance, cause and design...You should still be sensitive to the kids in your class." Eugenie: You might like to see an article I wrote on this in a truly obscure publication that scarcely anyone will find, but I think it makes some good points. I often lecture on the topic when I speak for university science departments. Here's a reprint, so you don't have to find the Paleontology Society Papers somewhere... http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/articles/695_problem_concepts_in_evolution_10_1_1999.asp Salvador: Along those lines, could you further clarify your position regarding the following question: "Do you oppose the offering of courses on Intelligent Design and/or Creationism in the Philosophy and Religion Departments of secular universities?" Eugenie: No. They are quite appropriate for such courses. In general, in American universities, Religion departments offer scholarly analysis of religion, rather than devotional study, for which one would seek a seminary. Certainly the c/e controversy is a public controversy that bears studying as a public controversy (that's why I wrote my book, after all!) Whether ID is a valid scientific or philosophical or theological approach can also be determined at the university level, and certainly is more appropriately determined there than by the local school board.

The IDEA chapter of George Mason University extends a cordial welcome to Eugenie Scott.

if non Christians are elected to become [IDEA club] officers, the club can continue under it's constitution, but it can no longer be a recognized as sanctioned chapter by the IDEA center in San Diego, but rather would have to delcare itself a renegade ID chapter.

— Salvador T. Cordova

The University's non-discrimination policy prohibits discrimination based on race, color, religion, national origin, disability, sexual orientation, veteran status, sex, or age.

Hey George Mason: I was curious to know if GMU's non-discrimination policy means that the IDEA club is disowned by the GMU administration. Unfortunately, none of your links works for me.

Russell,

As far as I know, GMU's IDEA club is in good standing with the university, in spite of its clear violation of GMU's written discrimination policies. Only the GMU administration can tell you why this club continues to be sanctioned.

This is a subject that the GMU community should take up.

And sorry, those links are broken -- use these:

www.gmu.edu/facstaff/policy/sexb.html
www.gmu.edu/equity/discrimination_prohibiting.shtml
www.gmu.edu/facstaff/handbook/aA/discrimination.html

Hmmmm, since Cornell University has similar anti-discrimination policies, I wonder whether the new IDEA chapter at Cornell will face a similar problem.

George Mason is an equal opportunity and affirmative action institution committed to the principle that access to study or employment opportunities afforded by the university, including all benefits and privileges, be accorded to each person-student, faculty, staff member, or applicant for employment or admission-on the basis on individual merit without regard to race, color, religion (employees), national origin, veteran status, disability, sexual orientation, sex, or age (except where sex or age is a bona fide occupational qualification). [emphasis added]

Posted by qetzal on November 30, 2005 04:42 PM (e) (s) Except that the anti-discrimination statement at the above GMU link reads:... Perhaps religious "discrimination" is OK for student-run groups at GMU?

Hmmmm, since Cornell University has similar anti-discrimination policies, I wonder whether the new IDEA chapter at Cornell will face a similar problem.

Posted by qetzal on November 30, 2005 04:42 PM (e) (s) Except that the anti-discrimination statement at the above GMU link reads:... Perhaps religious "discrimination" is OK for student-run groups at GMU?

BTW, the faculty advisor for the Cornell IDEA Club is an engineer.

I'll give you a moment to recover from the shock.

Hey, the Club at Nebraska-Lincoln is named Intelligent Design Theorists of Nebraska. With all those theorists on the job, I wonder if they've come up with an actual theory yet.

Even though IDEA Center is pro-design, we applaud Eugenie's support of the college courses exploring Intelligent Design and Creationism in universities.

And, as I think we've wondered before, if ID was truthful in claiming to be science rather than really being religion:

Why exactly does Sal's national IDEA outfit require the local IDEA-chapter officers to declare themselves to be Christian?

Chew on that big bambu for a while, Sal, and let us know in the unlikely event that you actually come up with a sensible thought that you'd like to share.

Why exactly does Sal's national IDEA outfit require the local IDEA-chapter officers to declare themselves to be Christian?

Posted by 'Rev Dr' Lenny Flank on November 30, 2005 08:35 PM (e) (s) ... For the same reason, I suppose, that ICR refused to allow anyone but Biblical-literalist Christians as members, at the same time they were trying to declare in court that creationism was "science". Once again, we see that ID is nothing but recycled ICR boilerplate. Including all the stupid stuff...

"ICR" = Institute for Creation Research, one of the older "scientific" creationism pushers.

RBH

As RBH said, "ICR" stands for "Institute for Creation Research". I'm not sure what "IICR" means; at a first guess, perhaps it might stand for "If I Correctly Recall"?

Even earthworms can learn from unpleasant experiences. Creationists, apparently, aren't that bright.

I'm amused by the idea that science is "attacking" religion. To paraphrase Linus Torvalds*, "Really, we're not out to destroy fundamentalist religions. That will just be a completely unintentional side effect."

*Interestingly, there are quite a few other parallels between the Open Source movements and science as a whole, particularly in terms of methodology ("many eyes make all bugs shallow" vs. "sign your soul away and we'll let you in on our secrets"). The major difference is that, with software, there's generally no definitive right or wrong solution to aim for.

800 adults were polled, (I hope they did the poll at a Baptist church and it's skewed) 47 percent favored organized prayer in public school, 56 percent wanted creationism taught alongside evolution and 64 percent want religious symbols such as the Ten Commandments displayed in public buildings.

for every PhD, there is and equal and opposite PhD

ooohhh you old tart Sal
smooooth as a rat with a gold tooth.

The difference, Sal, is that Dawkins got an eduction.
Behe just got his BS Piled Higher and Deeper.

And proved it, too, in Dover, for all the world to see, and some of the world to understand.

hugs,
Shirley Knott

Well now Sal you may need help for a 'Count'.

1. DI/ID no science yet or for the last xx number of years nothing in the pipeline except tautology solipsism and deusexmachina stuff.

2. Removed by you from comparative religion

Now what does that leave Sal

Politics, Psychology or Philosophy

Now since Eugenie did portray you as being rather slick cultural engineers.

That would put you firmly into the Politics basket right ?

Now lets see what would comparative political studies reveal ?

lets check the elements
cultural engineers -yup
philosophy "Magical reality"

so "Social Magical Realism" ?
let me see where else around the world has a system like that ? ?? ...hmmmmm ?

Maybe you should get that dropped from political studies as well ...just a thought.
Now you *could* tell the 'Count' that the enchanted Dulcinea is really an ugly peasant but since he ...umm has a problem (giggle).
Oh that's right you just love the glamor, the flash, the rapture of the spotlight you will keep going for ever.
Delicious Sal, please don't stop.

That was a masterpiece of Not Answering The Question, Sal. Egregious even for you.

Sal, the charge has been made that there is a requirement that IDEA chapter officers MUST be Christian. I have no idea whether this is true or not, but if it is, don't you think it seriously undermines the claims by ID proponents that ID is not religious in nature, and fosters at least a perception (rightly or wrongly) that ID is indeed a primarily religious idea? I hope you can clear this up for me. I'm interested because I hear an IDEA club has formed at Cornell University, where I went to school as a biology major.

She did not describe either of them as reprensible or dishonest.

Sal, the charge has been made that there is a requirement that IDEA chapter officers MUST be Christian. I have no idea whether this is true or not, but if it is, don't you think it seriously undermines the claims by ID proponents that ID is not religious in nature, and fosters at least a perception (rightly or wrongly) that ID is indeed a primarily religious idea? I hope you can clear this up for me. I'm interested because I hear an IDEA club has formed at Cornell University, where I went to school as a biology major.

— MrDarwin