Intelligent Design on CNN

Dobbs is very conservative, ergo, I am not expecting good things.

Why, I can't believe that you would imply that Debbie would lie...
"Deborah Owens-Fink, a member of the Ohio State Board of Education (SBOE) did a remarkable job on TOTN...saying that 'we need to be very careful that we don't get into the issue of religion, but yet, at the same time, that we also do not censor ideas that might go against what some elite scientists believe with respect to evolution . . . explaining the total diversity of life and origins of life.'" (2002, link)

"Owens Fink said the lesson is a good compromise (between two opposing viewpoints), and she said that 'ID concepts are not in the lesson.'" (2004 SBO Meeting, link)

You guys think she would lie? Surely, not!

I woner if they'll show the guy in the panda suit looking in the window of the building where the board meeting was held?

hehe.

The segment would be a good opportunity for Dobbs to take allygally's suggestion and refer to 'ID is science' as a hoax.

The only issue even close to a "controversy" was whether ID is science. If Kitzmiller didn't put that to rest, nothing will. Any reporter or journalist with integrity should now identify the ID movement as non-scientific/religious and the 'ID is science' movement as a hoax. The "discussion" is over.

Hopefully the segment will not be yet another display of lazy, non-analytical reporting, i.e. no reporting whatsoever, just two unequal views presented "equally." Let the viewers decide, if you will.

That format may be entertaining, but it does a disservice to the viewers by abusing their trust. They should be told up front that one side wants quality science education and the other side wants to teach science students something that has now been exposed as a hoax.

In my dreams, I guess.

BTW, if anyone's interested in reading through the objectional part of Ohio's lesson plan, read the "Critica Analysis of Evolution" section.

http://www.re-discovery.org/active_1.html

Track record...

'we need to be very careful that we don't get into the issue of religion, but yet, at the same time, that we also do not censor ideas that might go against what some elite scientists believe with respect to evolution ... explaining the total diversity of life and origins of life.'"

http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/9519/panda6aq.jpg

Never watched this show before, and it hasn't even gotten to the ID part yet, but I don't think I've ever been less impressed with a news anchor/talk show host.

Ok, little more impressed with Dobbs, he seemed to make it very clear that ID was religous. Not impressed with Hovis. There were several opportunities for him to tear apart Fink's argument and he didn't take any of them. He was on the defensive the entire time. It would have been interesting to actually hear what the "Five Conecepts" are, along with their merits, or lack thereof.

If anyone else wants to watch that tripe, I captured it on my PC.

I think Dobbs and Fink should hook up.....they appear to have much in common.

De-lurking to comment:

The pro-science side on the show was not as strong as it should have been.

Where can I send contributions to support legal action.

christine

Debbie said it was "never our intent" to introduce intelligent design. I guess she forgot her motion before the Ohio Board of Education, March 7, 2000, to give 50% evolution, 50% intelligent design int he classroom.

Debbie said that the material in the "critical analysis" plan is not ID. She knows otherwise. She said these topics are debated in the scientific community. She is either ignorant or dishonest.

I don't care if she accosts me again at another Board of Education meeting with this simple message, I'll say it anyway:
she is a liar.

It makes me very sad for the state of Ohio that someone like this controls the content of what my children will be taught.

In disgust,
Jeff

A disappointing segment... exactly what was expected. We hear the same old, boring argument from the science side ("non-science is not science") and the slick new phrase from the creationist IDers ("critical analysis").

What uninformed viewer could possibly have learned anything from that segment? It looked like a legitimate debate... let's just call it even, shall we?

Clearly the ID (CA?) side wins every time something like this is aired.

I can't imagine watching Mr. Dobbs again if this is how he "reports" the "news." Ugh.

Ok, little more impressed with Dobbs, he seemed to make it very clear that ID was religous. Not impressed with Hovis. There were several opportunities for him to tear apart Fink's argument and he didn't take any of them. He was on the defensive the entire time. It would have been interesting to actually hear what the "Five Conecepts" are, along with their merits, or lack thereof.

Owens Fink came off as reasonable until the very end. Her statement that students should be taught to critically evalutate theories, "especially one that is so dogmatically taught" gave her away.

Did anyone watch the segment on the avian flu after the ID discussion? There were three medical doctors talking about how H5N1 has mutated so that it can more easily stick to human skin cells. I wanted to yell at Lou and ask him if he wanted doctors who understand how viruses (and bacteria) mutate or not.

IMHO, Rob did a good job given that all of Lou's questions to him were along the lines of, "Well, why don't we just be reasonable and teach ID?"

Where can I send contributions to support legal action.

This would seem to fit here -
Richard Dawkins was interviewed today (on BBC Radio 5) about his new UK TV series the 'Root of all evil'. The series puts forward his views on religion of course - in the course of his travels he goes to Colorado and interviews 'Pastor Ted Haggard' about evolution. Religious teaching in UK schools and the Dover trail gets a brief mention at the end (when the next guest who happens to come on the show is an Army Chaplain - he shows he doesn't understand what ID even is - and why it's not an issue here).

In case you're interested:

Richard Dawkins on BBC Radio 5 live

Good idea Lenny I'm not working at the moment, and 'hard up' as we say - but if there is an easy way to get you a fiver (Paypal?) - you can have my 'widows mite'.

Where can I send contributions to support legal action.

I want to second Dick's comment about Rob Hovis. He is a class act, and will continue to fight for honest science education in Ohio.

Is the Lou Dobbs show segment on ID streamed to the web anywhere? I hear I'm on it...

Here is the transcript in case anybody missed it. I think Dobbs' show is also repeated at 4:00am ET Friday morning, if you are up that late.

Is the Lou Dobbs show segment on ID streamed to the web anywhere? I hear I'm on it...

Nick,

I have it recorded on my PC. If you want it you can ftp it from me, or we could figure out something else if needed.

Drop me an email if you're interested.

For guys my age, a "stream" is something you fish in. :)

I don't care if she accosts me again at another Board of Education meeting with this simple message, I'll say it anyway: she is a liar.

— Jeff McKee

Brian, I'm not shocked by the behavior of folks like Ms. Fink (how appropriate her name is). Standard political tactics engaged in by the right since the neocons started trying to take power in the late 70's.

swiftboating has become quite a successful tactic.

It doesn't make it any better tho.

What never ceases to shock me though, is that after pulling this kind of stunt, they invariably STILL claim the moral "high ground".

and what disgusts me to the utmost extent, to the extent I'm working on leaving the US as we speak, is that most Americans let them get away with this crap.

the audience in attendance at that meeting should have raised an immediate stink about Fink's behavior, and demanded an immediate halt to any further proceedings until her claims could be investigated and shown to be what they are.

but... other than a brief moment of silence, what did the audience actually do, Brian?

did they side with your correct indignation at such low tactics?

or did they just sit and watch the show.

I'm genuinely curious to know.

the audience in attendance at that meeting should have raised an immediate stink about Fink's behavior, and demanded an immediate halt to any further proceedings until her claims could be investigated and shown to be what they are. but... other than a brief moment of silence, what did the audience actually do, Brian? did they side with your correct indignation at such low tactics? or did they just sit and watch the show.

— Sir_Toejam

kudos to you for sticking it out.

I doubt i could have been so restrained.

I think i would have stood up and pulled a "this whole court is out of order" routine and stormed out.

then insisted on being interviewed by the press about what happened in there.

but that's just me, I guess.

If i were any member of the board, i would have immediately called a halt to the proceedings as soon as el finko pulled that little stunt of hers.

I've seen more civilized city council meetings end directly after similar stunts were pulled.

perhaps I'm wrong in this case, but it sure rankles.

btw, i couldn't find any reference to the specific claims of el finko over on the DI site. perhaps they thought better of it and removed it.

doubtless it will wind up on UD later today or tommorrow.

at this point, is there any doubt in your mind that there will have to be yet another federal court case to settle this matter?

it's obvious the IDiots want this to go to the supremes.

better now that later, i say, let's get this over with.

btw, i couldn't find any reference to the specific claims of el finko over on the DI site. perhaps they thought better of it and removed it.

— Sir_Toejam

oh.. god.. my eyes!

I'm gonna go scrub my eyes with drano.

brb

*ack* *sputter*

that's a little better.

my sincerest apologies. i just checked the front page without actually checking any deeper.

I guess they figure they got a lot of play out of Mirecki, so why not do it again.

heck, even out current resident troll Larry has heard of Mirecki.

*sigh*

People like Fink are the ones that think they have the right to teach other people's children what they want to. "god" forbid my own children turn out like them one day, dishonest, arrogant, self-righteous, smug, ignorant...

I don't give a rats *ss if they want to teach their ID creationism junk to their own children. But I choose REAL science for my own.

The intelligent design movement suffered a setback last month when a Pennsylvania judge ruled the concept unfit to be taught in state schools. But intelligent design supporters, who believe in a master plan for the universe, will not admit defeat. They're regrouping and they're rethinking their challenge to evolutionary theory in the classroom and the court.

The science groups all around the country should start attending school boards meeting and began a campaign for good science. Obvious the forces of good are at the defensive against the forces of obscurantism (i.e., IDiots). We should go on the offensive and be proactive.

As new scientific data emerge, scientists' understandings of the natural world may become enhanced, modified or even changed all together.

Theory A supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, especially one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained.

Present supporting and challenging information for five aspects of evolution found in Attachment A. This will give students background information concerning both supporting and challenging evidence. Students can use this information to focus their research.

Aspect 1: Homology (anatomical and molecular) Aspect 2: Fossil Record Aspect 3: Anti-Biotic [sic] Resistance Aspect 4: Peppered Moths Aspect 5: Endosymbiosis

Aspect 3: Antibiotic Resistance Citations in the General Tips Section may provide a starting point for student research. It is suggested that students employ additional resources in their research. Brief Supporting Sample Answer: The number of strains of antibiotic resistant bacteria, such as of Staphylococcus aureus, have significantly increased in number over time. Antibiotics used by patients to eliminate disease-causing bacterial organisms have facilitated this change. When some bacteria acquire a mutation that allows them to survive in the presence of antibiotics, they begin to survive in greater numbers than those that do not have this mutation-induced resistance. This shows how environmental changes and natural selection can produce significant changes in populations and species over time. Brief Challenging Sample Answer: The increase in the number of antibiotic resistant bacterial strains demonstrates the power of natural selection to produce small but limited changes in populations and species. It does not demonstrate the ability of natural selection to produce new forms of life. Although new strains of Staphylococcus aureus have evolved, the speciation of bacteria (prokaryotes) has not been observed, and neither has the evolution of bacteria into more complex eukaryotes. Thus, the phenomenon of antibiotic resistance demonstrates microevolution.

Tyrann,I totally agree with your comments,it is time to go on the offensive.I am a member of the N.C.S.E and The Center for Inquiry, hear in central Florida.We recently conducted the inaugural meeting of the newly formed Florida Science Standard Committee.
Our aim is to target the local school districts and offer our help and advice,and place with them statements from the NSTA and the NABT along with other literature clarifying their legal position.We will also offer to work with them, to develop science workshops for both students and teachers.Our site is flscience@ncseweb2.org,we would be honored to have any good advice or suggestions from PI

The science groups all around the country should start attending school boards meeting and began a campaign for good science. Obvious the forces of good are at the defensive against the forces of obscurantism (i.e., IDiots). We should go on the offensive and be proactive.

If you are unaware, Dobbs stated on his show a few months ago somethiong to the effect of "Darwinism is not science". I forget who the guest was, but he asked Dobbs if he was saying that evolution is not scientific and he reiterated that he felt it is not.

I send a message on his website, requesting that he stick to journalism, but I don't think he took it to heart...

The science groups all around the country should start attending school boards meeting and began a campaign for good science

for those that didn't watch and aren't familiar with lou dobbs, he claims to be a hard-talking, straight-shooting journalist that just wants the truth, but he never lives up to it. it's easy for him to look lefty in his promos, because he implicitly compares himself to the fox menagerie, which makes him look... "intellectual" or "educated", i guess, in comparison. righties don't want that in their "news", of course. but when it really comes down to it, lou dobbs has always disappointed by failing to do his research, and furthermore prolonging dramatic debate by ignoring anything obvious that might bring the argument to a close.

like the staggering evidence supporting evolution and the absolute lack of evidence supporting ID, for instance.

for some reason i want to like lou, but he is part of the problem, not part of the solution. don't get excited next time he wants to talk about evolution.

just a thought.

Spore,

that picture is kinda scary
it's giving me the willies
thank god it's not the burger king!

HOVIS: Dr. Owens Fink and I agree on that. I'm a Christian believer myself. And I think that American teenagers need more religion in their lives, not less. But it does not further that agenda to introduce non-scientific subject matter into science class and confuse them about what science is at a time when our country should be worried about its competitive position in the world economy. We need to be strengthening the integrity of our science education, not weakening it. OWENS FINK: And that's exactly why students should learn to critically analyze every subject, particularly one that's taught so dogmatically. DOBBS: Deborah Owens Fink, you got the last word. Robert Hovis, we thank you being with us. The Ohio State Board of Education well served by both of you. We thank you very much for being here tonight. OWENS FINK: Thank you. HOVIS: Thank you. DOBBS: Just ahead, new signs a deadly bird flu is mutating and could turn into the feared global pandemic. We'll have a special report and I'll be joined by Dr. Anthony Fauci of the National Institutes of Health.

But I thought it was funny to follow up the evo/ID "debate" with a story about mutating flu.

no! don't leave it to "science groups"! It's something we ALL need to take responsibility for. attend your local school board meetings YOURSELF and make your views known. It's general apathy that leads to things like Dover to begin with.

And critical thinking Larry..

never forget that...

Whoops .... fukc!

sorry LeNNy!!!

Re "But isn't EVERYTHING that's taught in school taught pretty much dogmatically?"

Like physics or chemistry? Near as I can recall (it was a few decades ago), yep. Laws of motion, electromagnetism, etc., or properties of elements and compounds. Leastwise I don't recall any class time spent on debates or controversies over the material.

Say, some of those classes taught that the periodic table had only 103 elements in it, and now it has 116 (last time I looked). Oh well.

Henry

Re "But isn't EVERYTHING that's taught in school taught pretty much dogmatically?" Like physics or chemistry? Near as I can recall (it was a few decades ago), yep. Laws of motion, electromagnetism, etc., or properties of elements and compounds.

You can't be 87510 serious?!?