More of What We're up Against

Dont be silly water didnt evolve it was created, water comes from rain and the rain is god tears.

Isn't it amazing that we drive on parkways and park on driveways? Is it colder in the north or in the winter? Evolution is revealed as a failure when such basic questions remain unanswered.

Wow, now that is scary. I understood the poor state of science education in the US but this seems to show how a little 'knowledge' can be quite dangerous.
So what would ID do to help these poor people understand science?

Is "Icons of Evolution" the answer to their needs? For better of for worse?

Oh, well. At least there's also a letter in the same section by a mainstream Protestant who sees Christian Exodus for the political extremist movement that it is.

That's it, I'm convinced. The logic is indisputable.

Something I noticed years back (and I think I'm not the first) is that if I read something that is wrong on some specific points, a counterargument kicks in and I soon have a response, but if read something that is just mind-blowingly wrong on too many levels to enumerate, I freeze up and cannot even figure out where to begin.

Assuming the quoted text is not a parody, this is about the best example ever of that effect. Just to avoid this being a complete cop-out, I'll try to respond.

Water evolving? Water simply occurs as a repeatable chemical reaction wherever hydrogren and oxygen are present. Hydrogen, consisting of a single proton is the most common element in the universe, and oxygen is also reasonably abundant. Water is the ubiquitous result of chemical laws.

I'm not even sure what the point about gravity allowing us to step up is supposed to mean. The author has identified a "paradox" on the order of: how is it that a bungee cord can let us drop and yet pull us back away from the ground at the same time.

"How did it happen that the Earth is spinning at the exact rate that keeps us from feeling that movement?" Arghghgh! No, this has got to be a joke. And I fell for it and wasted this much time responding to it already. In fact, your inability to feel (approximately) inertial movement has nothing to do with the spin of the earth. It could be spinning at any rate you wanted... ANYWAY AS LONG AS YOU'RE WEARING HEAVY ENOUGH BOOTS AND NEITHER ID NOR EVOLUTION EXPLAINS HOW A THERMOS KNOWS WHETHER TO KEEP YOUR COFFEE HOT OR YOUR JUICE COLD... IT'S GOTTA BE THE WORK OF THE FAIRY FOLK, DON'T YOU THINK?

Explorers must have a hard time walking near the poles if they didn't have the benefit of centripetal acceleration to precisely counter the otherwise crushing gravity of the Earth.

500 Quatloos to the first person who calculates (in g's or %g), the centripetal acceleration experienced by a person at the Earth's equator...

Now we have an "educated" minister who claims that seminaries have proved that the beginning chapters of the Bible were not written according to the Word of God, but by unknown authors and added to the Bible by some editor. How about the words in John 1:1-4?

Now we have an "educated" minister who claims that seminaries have proved that the beginning chapters of the Bible were not written according to the Word of God, but by unknown authors and added to the Bible by some editor.

Oh, well. At least there's also a letter in the same section by a mainstream Protestant who sees Christian Exodus for the political extremist movement that it is.

— Julie Stahlhut

Christian Exodus? You mean they're all gonna pack up and leave?

Why is it that these evolutionists are trying so hard to deny that God created the Earth and all that is on it? Now we have an "educated" minister who claims that seminaries have proved that the beginning chapters of the Bible were not written according to the Word of God, but by unknown authors and added to the Bible by some editor. How about the words in John 1:1-4?

About .003 g's.

You can donate my Quatloos to PT.

The theory of evolution does not and cannot explain so much about the universe that we know. For instance, when and how did water evolve? How does it happen that gravity can hold us to the Earth, and at the same time allow us to step up without any trouble? How did it happen that the Earth is spinning at the exact rate that keeps us from feeling that movement?

So David Heddle is writing for the Greenville News now?

Too proud to beg, I guess.

500 Quatloos to the first person who calculates (in g's or %g), the centripetal acceleration experienced by a person at the Earth's equator

Curses!

The sad thing is that Behe has 10X the science education of whomever wrote this.

http://www.thestate.com/mld/state/news/opinion/14156088.htm

this, relating to the post, is for Lenny.

AAARRRGGG! The whole second half of my post dissappeared!

I will have to summarize.

The opinion piece that I posted above more accurately represents what we are up against I think. ID Is about religion and not all religious folks look as phycologically twisted and dangerous as the one steve posted.

So what happens is that we think we are dealing with sane people who have simply been brainwashed by a very large cult when in fact, that is not the case at all. We are dealing with highly functional insanity.

So David Heddle is writing for the Greenville News now?
Actually the arguments are isomorphic. Heddle says that if the cc wasn't tuned to it's present value (whatever that is), if it were instead way bigger, life wouldn't be possible. Since Heddle doesn't know the CC to within even say 3 orders of magnitude, let's say the earth was rotating 1000 times faster. Whoops! We're all flung into space. No life! and there you have it. The earth's rotation is so Sensitive, it required an Intelligent Designer. Named Jesus.

The theory of evolution does not and cannot explain so much about the universe that we know. For instance, when and how did water evolve? How does it happen that gravity can hold us to the Earth, and at the same time allow us to step up without any trouble? How did it happen that the Earth is spinning at the exact rate that keeps us from feeling that movement?

PvM said: "I understood the poor state of science education in the US but this seems to show how a little 'knowledge' can be quite dangerous. So what would ID do to help these poor people understand science?"

I've interviewed schizophrenics that made more sense than this.

The quoted part reeks of satire to me. Then I read the rest. *sigh* I still vote for satire.

Curses! Simply using angle brackets is apparently enough to fool the software.

That whole article reeks of satire to me.

The theory of evolution does not and cannot explain so much about the universe that we know. For instance, when and how did water evolve? How does it happen that gravity can hold us to the Earth, and at the same time allow us to step up without any trouble? How did it happen that the Earth is spinning at the exact rate that keeps us from feeling that movement?

And more importantly, why is it that sharks haven't evolved legs and taken over the earth?

So David Heddle is writing for the Greenville News now? Actually the arguments are isomorphic. Heddle says that if the cc wasn't tuned to it's present value (whatever that is), if it were instead way bigger, life wouldn't be possible. Since Heddle doesn't know the CC to within even say 3 orders of magnitude, let's say the earth was rotating 1000 times faster. Whoops! We're all flung into space. No life! and there you have it. The earth's rotation is so Sensitive, it required an Intelligent Designer. Named Jesus.

I wish that Rapture thing would just hurry up so the rest of the world can get back to sanity.

The theory of evolution does not and cannot explain so much about the universe that we know.

Registered User, there's no way a shark with legs would take over the earth. It's survival of the fittest.

"Contrary to what most people say, the most dangerous animal in the world is not the lion or the tiger or even the elephant. It's a shark riding on an elephant's back, just trampling and eating everything they see. " -Jack Handey

Sharks decided to simply rule over the 3/4 of the planet that has a water covering. Why spend all that extra time on directed development ;) in order to run about a sparsely and relatively inhospitable environment that would require all those additional adaptions (think kidneys) beyond simply getting some feet.

I think this is the next phase in the faux-Christian right's attempt to dominate every aspect of public debate: bogus logic didn't work, outright lies didn't work, so now they're down to shrieking non-sequiturs, lashing out at everyone who looks just a little bit weird, and generally trying to scare everyone into silence by sheer unyielding irrationality.

OMID! The water line is up there with the monkeys, or "if global warming occurs why do we still have winter".

How can someone be that ignorant? The really sad part is that I'm sure they think they are smart and proud of their ignorance. Gah.

UnMark:
"That whole article reeks of satire to me."

While it is often difficult to separate satire from reality when dealing with biblical literalists, I have heard similar statements (and even worse) in church and in bible studies when I was a fundie. It is probably legit.

Dan Hocson said:
I've interviewed schizophrenics that made more sense than this
Interesting.
You are not the first to make that observation look up "fundamentalist schizophrenia"

Joseph Cambell and Jung made some observations which attempted to show that self discovery "the internal journey' and the religious 'heroes journey' had a parallel with the descent into schizophrenia. Resolving internal conflict with reality and for the 'hero' the subsequent self healing. I'm not trying to make light either condition however the state that overtly religious people get themselves into vis a vis their take on the world and that view being so far removed from reality IS a schizophrenic state of mind. To me this is the direct result of fantasy told as objective truth to children. When the time comes to make the step from adolescence to a functioning adult the fundamentalist path is one of such sterile mind control it surprises me that mass psychosis is not the result (irony).
For anyone interested look up Joseph. Campbell schizophrenia the Inward Journey"

There is an excerpt from "Myths to Live by" on Amazon
The Impact of Science on Myth.

Campbell proposed that today science was an 'external journey' of discovery whereas in the past it was the opening up of the new territorys (traditional exploration)and provided a way of allowing the collective psyche to satisfy a need to expand the individuals horizons.

While this is one of the more humorous creationist "set of arguments", it is a serious matter that a great many creationists/IDists do confuse evolution as a kind of myth of origins of all things. Generally your IDist isn't going to bring up evolving water, yet will bring up "cosmological ID" to bolster "biological ID", since it's all just creationism anyhow.

The creationist/IDist is primarily interested in what science can't explain, since he has an "explanation" for everything whatsoever. If the anti-evolutionist gets tired of endlessly losing the evolution arguments, then the issue becomes abiogenesis, or, "where did the matter/energy come from?" Carol Clouser and Heddle can generally be expected to bring up the last question, in particular.

If one can sneak God in anywhere as a "valid explanation", then of course there's little reason to leave God out in other areas (an effective God is the aim of many religionists). And since the pseudoscientific brand of theists frequently understand evolution to be an alternative to their own beliefs, well, if evolution doesn't explain everything, it explains nothing.

So this might be a particularly naive person speaking of "water evolving", but the DI is as intent in showing that the universe had to be created as that life had to be (actually, water does evolve out of the reaction of oxygen and hydrogen, according to standard chemistry language). Getting God "back into science" to essentially explain everything, at least everything having to do with origins, is their goal, and science be damned. On the whole the DI "fellows" are little different from this letter writer, just a bit more careful to use language with a broader appeal to ignorance.

Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/b8ykm

I'm a little amazed how much those questions sound like Steven Wright, who asked "what does the inside of water look like?". On gravity, Steve says "It's a good thing we have gravity, or else when birds died they'd just stay right up there"

We often speak of the "geochemical evolution of water along a ground-water flow path."

But if water evolved, how come there's still hydrogen?

Sure. Y'all Low Country folks always makin' fun of us Upcountry folks. Snobs. :-)

"Upstate." Duh.

There you go. The Bible is the word of God. How do we know? It says so in the Bible.

Carol has another letter to the editor on-line.

http://greenvilleonline.com/news/opinion/2004/11/25/letters20041125.htm

Just to help you decide if she is writing satire. Can I sue her high school for the mental anguish their negligence has caused me?

Daryl Cobranchi complains: "Sure. Y'all Low Country folks always makin' fun of us Upcountry folks. Snobs. :-)"

"Never a gentlemen born west of the fall line." Old southern saying.

Delta Pi Gamma (Scientia et Fermentum)

when and how did water evolve

And more importantly, why is it that sharks haven't evolved legs and taken over the earth?

trying to explain how the entire universe EVOLVED into everything it is .. in less than one trillionth of a second .. will sure keep evolutionist pondering for some time. with discoveries as problematic as this one to explain, i'd say its a tough time to be an evolutionist.

How does it happen that gravity can hold us to the Earth, and at the same time allow us to step up without any trouble?

— One Carol Crooks

Re 'Unlike Dinos, elasmos don't posses bones for nice fossilization; it requires very unique circumstances to get a fossil impression of a cartilaginous animal.

maybe the sharks ruled the surfance of the earth before the dinos did..."

With cartilege for bones? Seems like they wouldn't walk too well that way... ;)

Henry

With cartilege for bones? Seems like they wouldn't walk too well that way... ;)

Is this the same Greenvile where some official called Katrina victims "yard apes"?

Oh my Flying Spagetti Monster!!! Is this a joke? How can anybody so abysmally ignorant of basic physics feel confident enough, let alone justified, to air such an ignorant rant in a public forum?

http://greenvilleonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050915/NEWS04/509150321

I realize this thread is a bit punch-drunk for this quotation, but I thought all of you might find it useful:

"The theory of evolution is the great unifying theory of biology. But the impact of the theory extends even further: Evolution serves as a unifying description of all intelligent processes."

D.B. Fogel
"Evolutionary Computation: toward a new philosophy of machine intelligence", 3rd ed.
IEEE Press, 2006.

but I thought all of you might find it useful...

Then ID depends upon evolution!

Is this a joke? How can anybody so abysmally ignorant of basic physics feel confident enough, let alone justified, to air such an ignorant rant in a public forum?

http://www.thestate.com/mld/state/news/opinion/1... this, relating to the post, is for Lenny.

How can anybody so abysmally ignorant of basic physics feel confident enough, let alone justified, to air such an ignorant rant in a public forum?

Anybody going to blog on the California school district that now allows criticisms of Darwin's theory? It's new on Dembski's site. Could another Dover be in the making there?

It's new on Dembski's site. Could another Dover be in the making there?

I hope so -- the last Dover case made the creationists look like lying asses!

BTW, The letter quoted above was in reference to an editorial written by AAAS CEO Alan I. Leshner and the Rev. Baxter M. Wynn, minister of pastoral care and community relations at First Baptist Church of Greenville.

To see the full Greenville News commentary, click here.

I hope so --- the last Dover case made the creationists look like lying asses!

Though I've long been partial MDT, specifically the Invisible Tinkering Warrior Army hypothesis, I am beginning to be persuaded that the FSM (BBUINA) truly is the source of all things. As for the origin of water, my money's on the BIG BOIL, the semolina creation event whereupon the FSM brought the entire universe into being.

Pastaman vibration, yeah!

Carol's letter is really quite clever and delivers a potentially lethal blow to biological evolution. If you read between the lines, what she is really saying is "If evolution is true, why am I still here?" Case closed, huh.

[With apologies to all my non-human primate friends for the above lame attempt at humor.]

according to the retards at Uncommonly Dense, it's evolutionists' fault that...um...the guy wrote such ignorant things about evolution...somehow.

http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/941

If I live to the age of 100 (and I bloody well won't), that is just too damned funny!

"Yes, and when water refuses to think rationally and critically it evolves into urine!"

"For instance, when and how did water evolve?" Duh about 2 years ago it did. How do you think we got Vitamin Water.

"How does it happen that gravity can hold us to the Earth, and at the same time allow us to step up without any trouble?" Not only does it let us step up, but it even allows us to walk upright.

I find it much easier to believe that Genesis tells us the truth

Talk about chutzpah. Davescot gets one thing right. The education Carol got did not serve her well. Then he appropriates "rational thinking" to describe what he and his would add to the school system and labels what he would remove as "fairy tales".

He must have been told hundreds of times that fairies = supernatural = god and yet his brain still spits it out.

Just you wait... As soon as the department of physics over at Bob Jones University determines how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, they'll get to the bottom of this evolving water thingy...

Evolving water... that's Perrier, right?

The latest discovery at the DI institute is that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a creationist to enter the kingdom of science.

BWE said: "The opinion piece that I posted above more accurately represents what we are up against I think. ID Is about religion and not all religious folks look as phycologically twisted and dangerous as the one steve posted."

Now, there's no need to go flinging insults right and left. What do innocent algae have to do with this?

Lynn

Word equals God x God

Letting a=1, b = 2, c = 3, etc, mathematically:

God x God x God .................................. . = 47,900,160
70 seven fold x 99 x love........................ . = 47,900,160
God x 1260 x love ................................... = 47,900,160
10 % of heaven seven fold x God x God = 47,900,160
704 x 54 x 1260 (Rev 12:6.)................. . = 47,900,160
word x (3xGod) ..................................... = 47,900,160
1x2x3x4x5x6x7x8x9x11x12.................. = 47,900,160
Jesus said, " I have chosen you 12."
word x 2112 (u 12) ............................... = 47,900,160
47,900,160 minus (Jesus x Jesus x one) .......= 47,160,900
word = God (54) x G x 0 x d (7 x 15 x 4)
word = First ( i ) x Last (14) x 360 over 2
word = God x God (John 1:1)
word = one (ace) x 1 week (168 hours)
word = 90 % of 70 360's (the remainder is 2 1260's)
word = first x last x it ( i x [a+m] x i x t )
word = 126 (az) x 180 (9 x 20)
word = 22,680
word = 2/3 of iron ( 9 x18 x 15 x14) (Rev. 12:5)

just to alert those not conversant:

Lynn is referring to phycology, which is the study of algae, as opposed to psychology.

Shenda said: "While it is often difficult to separate satire from reality when dealing with biblical literalists, I have heard similar statements (and even worse) in church and in bible studies when I was a fundie. It is probably legit."

Sadly, very true. I had a student once submit an anti-evolution paper in which she quite sincerely spent fifteen pages arguing about how evolution was impossible, using the evolution of "arms" as her primary example. Her arguments were of the "what use would they be when only partially formed? They'd just flop around and get in the way. What good is half an arm?" style.

This was a paper submitted to a college biology course. Somehow she'd completely missed the notion that, before they were arms, they were legs. She envisioned evolution as suggesting that they started out as little nubs and just got longer and longer, and eventually got things like bones and fingers and such.

This was back in my early days of teaching, and I was totally stunned at the level of simple ignorance. Needless to say, there were no references of any quality cited. I don't think the "arms" argument has come up with anyone since. Or anyone before, come to think if it. But she had to get it from somewhere.

Lynn

I grew up in Greenville, SC (live in Chicago now) and I can testify (heh) that this is entirely typical of the Op/Ed page of the (Gannett owned) Greenville News. Nearly every edition has at least one or more letters to the editor condemning either evolution and/or homosexuality.

A few facts about Greenville:

It's home to Bob Jones University - an unaccredited religious "college" where interracial dating is banned and where biblical creation is "taught."

It's the future site of the Christian Exodus crowd chosen because of it's religiosity. They hope to settle there in numbers and eventually cede from the union.

It was the first test market for a new radio format called "God & Country."

No kidding, people down there obsess over evolution - it drives them crazy. In a way I suppose its a good thing that the subject is talked about so much but unfortunately the "godly" types tend to shout down those who actually have an understanding of basic biology.

When I lived down there I would routinely get into protracted arguments with these folks about evolution... some people talk about it because they are genuinely curious, but most talk about it because they view it as a threat (which it is) to their basic model for the way to the world works.

I'm much more laid back/jaded now a days so when the subject comes up and the person is passionately attacking evolution I ask them about their education. Usually these folks don't have a strong science background (I do) so I invite them to put their money and time where their mouth is a take a few intro level biology courses at their local community college...

Which brings me to my last point: the problem in talking about evolution with the average person from a place like Greenville, SC (pop: 60,000) is that it's impossible to find common ground - the gulf between language is too deep (and I'm not talking about the southern draw.) I can spend all day talking about the fossil record and mitochondrial DNA but these folks aren't familiar with those concepts - at the same time I'm not entirely clear on seven-day creation, geocentrism, etc... so what you're seeing is a breakdown of communication. The fact that this person would even ask "how did water evolve" shows that there is a great disconnect between common perceptions and what we know through science.

Could another Dover be in the making there?

"the southern draw" - the move that brought law an awduh.

I sent my post # 88560 to the Greenville News.

It's pure math so it could be pure science.

Zero

"It's pure math so it could be pure science."

Blasphemer! You will have mathematicians jumping all over you since math isn't regarded to be science as such.

It isn't science until you apply math in a theory or model. OTOH, your model of religion as word games makes as much sense as any other I've seen. :-)

Comment #88590
Posted by Torbjorn Larsson on March 23, 2006 09:47 AM (e)

"the southern draw" - the move that brought law an awduh.

I have a coffee cup that has a drawing of a sheep running towards a fan.
Printed beneath is: "The sheep is gonna hit the fan." Inside the lip it
cautions, "stay cool"

I said to my housekeeper one day, " Heaven is hell without law and order.
When hell meets the law, the shit will hit the fan."

The next morning, after making some notes about what I had said, I walked
outside and picked up my newspaper. The front page top
headline read, "Helmet Law Enforcement Begins".

Torbjorn, I'm talking about one plus one equals two.
Anything you can find, you can count,
be it science or religion.

Zero

The Discovery Disco Institute should make Carol Crooks a Fellow associate of some sorts since DI does state that Non-technical work by some Fellows is available on there website. Carol should properly qualify for a fellow position since now the Dover decision proves religion is their main entity of all source and knowledge for ID.

The DI Research Fellowship Program
Initial submitted proposals should include two copies of the following:
1. A curriculum vitae, including a list of publications --- I am sure The Greenville News would be more than happy to submit her opinions showing her vast writing skills and knowledge on subjects including politics, religion, Poof magic, Fundy economics, astrology, alchemy, big bang evolution, Dembski bio-mathematics,puff the magic dragon physics, polka dancing, mud wrestling, grand canyon geology, creation biology, paranormal psychology, and critical stinking skills. Her curriculum vitae are probably relevant to creation happy courses from Bob Jones University of the absurdity academics standards that the DI uses for their fodder.

2. A 2 - 3 page description of your research project (1000 words or less) --- She should submit her research on the evolution of water (Alchemy based), and gravity (Newton be damned) and that should be less than 100 words or less from her.

3. A budget enumerating release time, travel, and research expenses --- This should not be to hard for her to include all the taxi rides to and throe from the many churches in Greenville and the Bob Jones University Library to tabulate.

4. A letter of endorsement and allowance of release time from department faculty head or college administrator (if relevant) - Bob Jones University probably has offered her honorary doctorates in many fields of subject by now, I bet through her many letters to the Greenville news that shows her qualifications as a bogeyed creationist extraordinaire.

5. A relevant published writing sample Proposals should be sent to: Jay Richards, DI -Such as http://greenvilleonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060322/OPINION/603220407/1010

Still imaging Carol's arms just flapping around like useless appendages --- wait do I see noodles sprouting from her body! OMG! FSM has arrived to the rescue. We wish,sigh!

From FSM:

"It's not over till the fat lady sings"

Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:52 pm Post subject:

No, it's already been mathematically proven that Zero is God:

Dr. Otis Lansa wrote:
hereoisreal wrote:

Mathmatically:

God X God = Word
3 X God X Word = God X God X God

Let God= g and w = Word = (God x God) = g^2

g x g = g^2 = w

3 x g x w = g x g x g
3 x g x g x g = g x g x g
3g^3 = g^3
3g^3 - g^3 = 0
2g^3=0
g^3=0
g=cube root of 0
g=0

So God=Zero

Is there something you'd like to tell us?

.............

I"m not to good at math but
I do know how to measure since I am a retired carpenter.

Would one or two of you mathematicians check out
Dr. Lansa's figures and
get back with us?

Zero

Speaking of BJ-U, weren't they or Liberty or somebody looking for a young earth creationist professor of geology or something? Anybody know how that turned out?

"Dont be silly water didnt evolve it was created, water comes from rain and the rain is god tears."

And's he's crying because you're an idiot Mrs. Crooks

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." BERTRAND RUSSELL (1872-1970)

— Bill Gascoyne

I'm so confused. How is word = 22680? Please explain it in baby steps for me. I'm not math literate.

Zero, I'm afraid your math is bad. You just stuck in that 3 out of nowhere; it's a magic number. By the g^2 = w hypothesis, g^3 = g*w and not 3*g*w.

However, if g^3 = 3*g*w is taken as a previous assumption (which it could be, if you find the right verse) along with g^2 = w, then g must be equal to 0, because you get g^3 = 3*g^3.

Tice with a J,

The "3" comes from the Trinity. You know, how God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are three separate entities that are at the same time only one entity?

Comment #88631
Posted by hessal on March 23, 2006 01:03 PM (e)

"I'm so confused. How is word = 22680? Please explain it in baby steps for me. I'm not math literate."

...............

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Word equals God x God

word = God (54) x G x 0 x d (7 x 15 x 4)
word = 54 x 7 x 15 x4

God = 1260 (alpha, omega & nothing )
God = 704 (beginning, end & nothing)
God = 54 (first, last,& nothing) (Ass + 15) Zec 9:9
God = 26 ( a through z ) also (7 + 15 + 4)

Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Zero

I thought this would provide some fun reading, and I wasn't sure where to put it. I think it fits this post because of the questioning of Science and Evolution. So I found this rebuttal Are We Smarter Than God? as a great tool to show those fundies how inerrant the bible really is. *SARCASM ALERT*

My answer is a definate YES.

"Anything you can find, you can count"

Unly countable things. I dare you to count the real numbers between 0 and 1.

But please refrain posting part results before you have satisfied yourself whether you can do the whole of it or not. Otherwise we will never finish this thread. And yes, that is a hint to the answer. :-)

Re "I dare you to count the real numbers between 0 and 1."

Or even just the rational numbers in that range, never mind the irrational and transcendental ones.

Henry

Posted by Torbjorn Larsson on March 23, 2006 04:04 PM (e)

"Anything you can find, you can count"

Only countable things. I dare you to count the real numbers between 0 and 1.

Torbjorn, the number of
'whole' pieces of a pie,
as you know, depends upon
how thin you cut it. But
is just a smell a real piece?

Zero

"Re "I dare you to count the real numbers between 0 and 1." Or even just the rational numbers in that range, never mind the irrational and transcendental ones.

ny state has an evolution controversy bill in the works HELLLLP!!!!

Section 1. The education law is amended by adding a new section 803-b
2 to read as follows:
3 S 803-B. COURSES OF STUDY IN THE CONTROVERSY SURROUNDING EVOLUTION AND
4 THE ORIGINS OF MAN. 1. ALL PUPILS IN GRADES KINDERGARTEN THROUGH TWELVE
5 IN ALL PUBLIC SCHOOLS IN THE STATE SHALL RECEIVE INSTRUCTION REGARDING
6 ALL ASPECTS OF THE CONTROVERSY SURROUNDING EVOLUTION AND THE ORIGINS OF
7 MAN. SUCH INSTRUCTION SHALL BE PROVIDED BY OR UNDER THE DIRECT SUPER-
8 VISION OF REGULAR CLASSROOM TEACHERS, PROVIDED, HOWEVER, THAT SUCH
9 INSTRUCTION MAY BE PROVIDED BY ANY OTHER AGENCY, PUBLIC OR PRIVATE.
10 2. THE COMMISSIONER, SHALL PROVIDE TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE TO ASSIST IN
11 THE DEVELOPMENT OF CURRICULA FOR SUCH COURSES OF STUDY WHICH SHALL BE
12 AGE APPROPRIATE AND DEVELOPED ACCORDING TO THE NEEDS AND ABILITIES OF
13 PUPILS AT SUCCESSIVE GRADE LEVELS IN ORDER TO PROVIDE INFORMATION
14 REGARDING ALL ASPECTS OF THE CONTROVERSY SURROUNDING EVOLUTION AND THE
15 ORIGINS OF MAN INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, INTELLIGENT DESIGN AND
16 INFORMATION EFFECTIVELY CHALLENGING THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION.
17 3. THE BOARD OF EDUCATION OR TRUSTEES OF EVERY SCHOOL DISTRICT SHALL
18 PROVIDE APPROPRIATE TRAINING AND CURRICULUM MATERIALS FOR THE REGULAR
19 TEACHERS WHO PROVIDE SUCH INSTRUCTION, TO ENSURE THAT ALL ASPECTS OF THE
20 CONTROVERSY, ALONG WITH ANY SUPPORTIVE DATA, ARE FULLY EXAMINED THROUGH

EXPLANATION--Matter in ITALICS (underscored) is new; matter in brackets
{ } is old law to be omitted.
LBD11536-06-6

A. 8036--B 2

1 SUCH COURSE OF STUDY. SCHOOL DISTRICTS SHALL RECEIVE STATE AID FOR SUCH
2 TRAINING AND CURRICULUM MATERIALS NECESSARY TO PROVIDE SUCH INSTRUCTION
3 PURSUANT TO PARAGRAPH D-1 OF SUBDIVISION THIRTY-EIGHT OF SECTION THIR-
4 TY-SIX HUNDRED TWO OF THIS CHAPTER.
5 S 2. Subdivision 38 of section 3602 of the education law is amended by
6 adding a new paragraph d-1 to read as follows:
7 D-1. NOTWITHSTANDING ANY OTHER PROVISION OF LAW, SCHOOL DISTRICTS MAY
8 UTILIZE AID PAYABLE PURSUANT TO PARAGRAPH B OF THIS SUBDIVISION FOR THE
9 PURPOSE OF TEACHER TRAINING AND CURRICULUM MATERIALS NECESSARY TO
10 PROVIDE INSTRUCTION PURSUANT TO SECTION EIGHT HUNDRED THREE-B OF THIS
11 CHAPTER.
12 S 3. This act shall take effect immediately

You guys know nothing about science. See, water only appears to have evolved. If there is one thing we learned with Reverend Dawkins is that there are many things in life that only "appear to be" but, thanks to science, we now know they are not. ;-)

So I found this rebuttal Are We Smarter Than God?

Posted by brightmoon on March 23, 2006 05:59 PM (e) ny state has an evolution controversy bill in the works HELLLLP!!!!

Sadly, very true. I had a student once submit an anti-evolution paper in which she quite sincerely spent fifteen pages arguing about how evolution was impossible, using the evolution of "arms" as her primary example. Her arguments were of the "what use would they be when only partially formed? They'd just flop around and get in the way. What good is half an arm?" style.

This was a paper submitted to a college biology course. Somehow she'd completely missed the notion that, before they were arms, they were legs. She envisioned evolution as suggesting that they started out as little nubs and just got longer and longer, and eventually got things like bones and fingers and such.
===========================
I recall a troll on alt.atheism demanding an explanation as to how a human arm evolved from being straight to having an albow.

...INSTRUCTION REGARDING ALL ASPECTS OF THE CONTROVERSY SURROUNDING EVOLUTION AND THE ORIGINS OF MAN

I can hardly wait. "listen up you banjotards. evolution is established scientific fact. the "authorities" you uncritically accept as having disproved evolution are wrong in several hundred ways you are currently too ignorant to understand. state law mandates we will spend the next three years explaining it to you. point one..."

ny state has an evolution controversy bill in the works HELLLLP!!!!

— brightmoon...

What state is that? SC?

— RBH

Water evolve? Nonsense. Water happens when hydrogen loses its phlogiston.

Henry

Comment #88683
Posted by Zero on March 23, 2006 05:55 PM (e)

Posted by Torbjorn Larsson on March 23, 2006 04:04 PM (e)

"Anything you can find, you can count"

Only countable things. I dare you to count the real numbers between 0 and 1.

Torbjorn, the number of
'whole' pieces of a pie,
as you know, depends upon
how thin you cut it. But
is just a smell a real piece?
....................

Do you know why my fanger smells like limon pie?
It's got my rang on it.

This story has a ring to it:

In January, 2004, I was on my patio when I noticed my neighbor out in his backyard

with a metal detector. He must have spent 3-4 hours scanning his grass.
I asked him the next day, as I leaned over our fence, what had he lost. He said that he

was losing weight and had lost his gold wedding ring but didn't have any idea where or

when. I then glanced to my left about 8-10 feet and spotted his ring in the grass.
A few days later, Joan's sister and her husband were over and I told them the above

story. The next day after we had done some shopping , we were having lunch at home

when Shirley, my sis-in-law discovered one of her gold ear rings was missing. We

searched the house for about an hour, then backtracked. While Bob and I went to one

store, my wife and Shirley went to another.
They pulled into the yard about 5 minutes after Bob and I with the ear ring.
Joan said that the one parking spot I had used that morning was empty so she parked

there. They searched through the whole store and around the parking space before

finally getting back in the car. Then Joan told Shirley to get out one more time and

look around the parking spot, which she did and got back in. As Joan was backing out,

she spotted the ear ring in the sand
In February of 06, I was playing golf and riding with Dick Ledger in his cart
when he mentioned that he was having trouble keeping his wedding ring on
because he was losing weight.
The remark brought back memories of the above story from the year before so
I told it to him.
When I arrived home that afternoon, my wife told me that she had spoken to
Janet White on the phone and learned that Bill, her husband, had lost his
ring finger while trying to lift something heavy from his son's truck.
A few days later, Bob and Shirley came to visit again and I told them all of
the above. Just before they were about to leave, Bob discovered he had
lost his wedding band. (He had been losing weight.)
After they left, my wife continued to look for the ring and asked me to help.
I didn't and I said to her, " He'll probably find it in his trunk"
Our maid, Susan came that day so my wife asked her to keep an eye out
for it also. I told her the complete story up till then and also told her
a ring joke.
I said, "Do you know why my fanger smells like limon pie? It's got
my rang on it."
That night Shirley called. She said Bob had found his ring in the car trunk.
The next time Susan came, I told her that Bob had found his ring.
She replied, "After you told me the ring joke, I went home to find
my mother in the kitchen. I asked her what she was baking and she replied,
'Limon meringue pie'."

Zero

"Why is it that these evolutionists are trying so hard to deny that God created the Earth and all that is on it? Now we have an "educated" minister who claims that seminaries have proved that the beginning chapters of the Bible were not written according to the Word of God, but by unknown authors and added to the Bible by some editor. How about the words in John 1:1-4?" "The theory of evolution does not and cannot explain so much about the universe that we know. For instance, when and how did water evolve? How does it happen that gravity can hold us to the Earth, and at the same time allow us to step up without any trouble? How did it happen that the Earth is spinning at the exact rate that keeps us from feeling that movement?

Now we have an "educated" minister who claims that seminaries have proved that the beginning chapters of the Bible were not written according to the Word of God, but by unknown authors and added to the Bible by some editor.

"Anything you can find, you can count"

heck lets count just integers.....get back to me when you're done.

also there was a bill in NY state last year by a known fundie wacko.

it went into the education committee and died...same thing this year....i expect

"Or even just the rational numbers in that range"

"heck lets count just integers.....get back to me when you're done."

Eh, I think the sets of rational numbers and integers are both countable and countably infinite.

Eh, I think the sets of rational numbers and integers are both countable and countably infinite.

"X is countable" means "there is a 1:1 mapping between X and the natural numbers". This doesn't mean that you can actually count all of them in a finite length of time (in fact you can't).

Well, it seems Davescot didn't want to post my comments that should have appeared around comment # 8 of the uncommondecent blog. Well, here they were, innocently enough:

"You're right. Teachers from elementary school all the way up through high school failed to teach this person the basic premises of chemistry, physics and biology. That failure coupled with a tendency to equate physics and chemistry with biology (seen in most creationists) helped sharpen her ignorance of science. Oh, and most likely a personal bias against evolutionary biology stemming from fundamentalism.

You know, instead of ranting against Steve, maybe you guys should join with actual scientists and take a stand against this creationist crap and misinformation. Well, that's assuming that you aren't just a political/religious scam trying to put your foot in the door where creationism failed.

Oops, Dover. My bad. "

Thanks Gary Hurd. It's a good thing somebody sent a response to the Greenville News, although it's kinda sad that somebody would have to.

Also, it's nice to see that Zero was just pulling our legs the whole time (comment #88728).

It's why they don't trust us:

— normdoering

Happy Gilmore

About four and a half years ago, I think it was

the day my wife Joan had her hole - in - one

at La Cita, she and I were discussing spectacular golf shots.

I said, " You may not have heard about this, but Andrew

Magee had a hole - in - one while playing a par 4

on the PGA tour this year (2001) at the Phoenix

open. A player on the green was practicing his

putting stroke when Andrew's drive ricocheted

off the back of his putter into the hole."

Then I continued, " I remember, years ago,

reading about something even stranger...a golfer on a par 3

overshot the green. His ball glanced off of a

Volkswagen going by on the road, fell back onto the

green and rolled in the cup."

At the time I had read it, I imagined a specific colored

car, yellow.

That night I asked Joan what she would like to do.

She replied,

" Let's watch one of the DVDS we got when we bought our

player the other day".

We had never used it.

Since I had golf on my mind, I inserted a movie titled "Happy Gilmore".

It is about an x-hockey player who gets

on the PGA tour basically because he had hit a hole - in - one

on a par 4 hole. He also used a hockey stick sometimes

as an iron or putter.

He makes his last shot of a tournament to win by glancing

his ball, first, off of a yellow Volkswagen, then through a Rube

Goldberg maze, (a fallen tower), into the hole.

At the time we owned a cocktail lounge.

Sometime later I installed another TV down the bar which

included a DVD player, away from the one I always had on

mostly for live sports.

One Sunday afternoon I was tending bar alone. I had only

one customer, a young man in his twenties. We both were

watching PGA golf and I had "Happy Gilmore" playing on

the DVD.

The young man made a comment, " I could hit that ball if

they let me use a baseball bat."

I replied, " Why not use a hockey stick like Happy?"

I glanced over to the other TV to see Happy putting

with his hockey stick.

The announcer on live TV said at that moment, and I don't

know what prompted his remark, " If you hit a golf ball with a

hockey stick, you have to hit it straight on."

I told someone at the bar the above story a few days later,

then left the bar, got in my truck and drove south toward Mims,

thinking about what I had just discussed.

As I pulled up to the red light at 46, a yellow VW turned

left in front of me.

Two weeks later, Joan and I drove to Ft. Myers to try

to locate her brother she hadn't heard from in 46 years.

After finding him and talking for a while, he remarked,"Let

me show you my old cars."

We walked around to the back and when he raised the

garage door, a yellow Volkswagen appeared.

Now when I see a yellow VW, it's special to me.

Last week, just after seeing one pass, I crossed the

street and walked into a thrift store. Just inside was a

yellow toy model VW on a pedestal.

If you click on 'Zero' above,you will find 342 simular stories in my life.

Zero
stories

""X is countable" means "there is a 1:1 mapping between X and the natural numbers". This doesn't mean that you can actually count all of them in a finite length of time (in fact you can't)."

Zero wasn't discussing finite sets, he was making a statement about what he thought one could count. "Anything you can find, you can count". This could mean being able to start or finish counting, it's ambigious. (I agree that the natural translation is being able to finish, ie finite sets.)

Reals are uncountable, you can't even start counting. Integers and rationals are not uncountable; but you can never finísh counting.

I'm astonished at the stupidity of posts here in response to an inocent poem penned by an inocent human being. Did anyone consider that this person is not the least bit interested in science, but instead is interested in the poetry of the workings of our universe? Nothing this person wrote is untrue. This is a poem guys. Grow up and smell the roses. Let's all try to table our irrational contempt of the faithful for a moment and rewrite the post in plain english:

The theory of evolution cannot explain everything about the universe.
For example, how did hydrogen and oxygen come to be and why can they form water so easily on earth and yet seem so rare everywhere else we look?
And how does gravity work so consistently throughout the university that men can walk on the moon with the same motion as on the earth without worying about sudden changes in Newton's laws?
The earth itself spins at precisely the right frequency needed to prevent undampened oscillations or wobbles that we would easily feel - dizzying undulations - why is this the case?

Granted that the poetry isn't the best, but that's all is is. It does take a bit of imagination to think this way - a certain respect for nature and awe at her doings. Apparently none of you have either (imagination or respect, that is).

Granted that the poetry isn't the best, but that's all is is. It does take a bit of imagination to think this way - a certain respect for nature and awe at her doings. Apparently none of you have either (imagination or respect, that is

Comment #89074
Posted by Torbjorn Larsson on March 24, 2006 11:10 PM (e)

""X is countable" means "there is a 1:1 mapping between X and the natural numbers". This doesn't mean that you can actually count all of them in a finite length of time (in fact you can't)."

Zero wasn't discussing finite sets, he was making a statement about what he thought one could count. "Anything you can find, you can count". This could mean being able to start or finish counting, it's ambigious. (I agree that the natural translation is being able to finish, ie finite sets.)

Reals are uncountable, you can't even start counting. Integers and rationals are not uncountable; but you can never finísh counting.
....................................................................................
>Please notice that no one , since my 88650 post, has done anything but try
to reduce the subject to split ting numbers.
Only one preson, hessal, asked a question and I answered.

Zero wasn't discussing finite sets, he was making a statement about what he thought one could count. "Anything you can find, you can count". This could mean being able to start or finish counting, it's ambigious. (I agree that the natural translation is being able to finish, ie finite sets.)<
.....................................................................................
Mathematically, the First & Last (IN) = end
Zero has no beginning or end.

Yellow Blobs On Yellow Brick Roads

Last night I dreamed I was in a head-on automobile

accident and wound up in car heaven. Everything was

sooo beautiful. But lots of yellow. Yellow houses.

Yellow streets. Yellow garbage cans, etc... You get the idea.

Among other things, I could see a lot of little yellow

car - shaped blobs moving along the golden streets.

When I ran into an angel, no pun intended, who had yellow stains on his shirt, I asked

him what the blobs were and he replied:

"Well, we get a lot of different models and makes coming up here. Some

with just minor damage, like finder benders or worn out engines. We

try to do the best we can with repairs but with the price of help and all...

The old ones and total wrecks, we just recycle."

I asked, "How do you do that?" so he continued:

"We have this special process where we grind them up,

put them in a vat, add gelatin, water, and a little yellow

gold dust trash. Then we bring it all to a boil while

stirring before pouring into a mold. Those that have

a record of speeding or hitting dogs, we pour into a

form that's shaped like a fire hydrant. They're shipped

off to dog heaven. Because they don't have wheels,

they never come back.

.

The others we use to fill the Volkswagen shaped molds.

We've thought several times about breaking that mold

but actually it works pretty good. They come out docile

and soft like new born babies. They're kinda slow so

they can't hurt anyone and they don't kill dogs.

That's the mold we're going to pour you into so

when you happen to meet up with another, you can

yell, "Oh! Hello fellow mellow yellow jell-O."

I woke up a total wreck. I thought to myself, " What is this

yellow sand doing in my bed?"

Ps:

I ran in to this guy the other day who had yellow, orange,

purple, and blue splotches of color on his T - shirt.

Across the front it said, "I ran into Tammy Faye."

Zero

The theory of evolution cannot explain everything about the universe.

For example, how did hydrogen and oxygen come to be

and why can they form water so easily on earth and yet seem so rare everywhere else we look?

And how does gravity work so consistently throughout the university that men can walk on the moon with the same motion as on the earth without worying about sudden changes in Newton's laws?

The earth itself spins at precisely the right frequency needed to prevent undampened oscillations or wobbles that we would easily feel - dizzying undulations - why is this the case?

SirToejam: "If that was poetry I think we can call poetry dead."

I can't think of a better way to validate my assertion. You probably wouldn't know poetry if it bit you in the toe.

If you're going to have enemies, you'd best know them. This poem wasn't a litteral poem. Calling it that was an analogy. It is analagous to a poem in that it is an expression of the awe a certain unscientific person sees in the universe. That person doesn't claim to be a scientist, rather they claim to be a person of faith. People of faith see the universe from a totally different perspective. Expressing that perspective is not the same as claiming to be an authority, it is just poetry.

Until you understand their perspective, you aren't fit to debate them.

But having said all that, you didn't seem to want to comment on the factual truth of their "poem". What say you, is it not true that we don't know how or why hydrogen and oxygen came into existence and that the earth's frequency of rotation is vital to preventing destructive wobbling? I know it wobbles, you moron, but if the earth's spin were just a little more or a little less we probably would't want to live here.

My assertion stands and thanks to you it is even better supported. As a scientist I am ashamed of the vast majority of commentors on this blog who are so blinded by their own egos and faith in self that they can't even recognize when an inocent is simply trying to communicate his or her perspective on the world as an aspect of their deep faith.

Know thine enemy.

but if the earth's spin were just a little more or a little less we probably would't want to live here.

This poem wasn't a litteral poem. Calling it that was an analogy.

— Glenda

Until you understand their perspective, you aren't fit to debate them.

But having said all that, you didn't seem to want to comment on the factual truth of their "poem". What say you, is it not true that we don't know how or why hydrogen and oxygen came into existence and that the earth's frequency of rotation is vital to preventing destructive wobbling? I know it wobbles, you moron, but if the earth's spin were just a little more or a little less we probably would't want to live here.

What say you, is it not true that we don't know how or why hydrogen and oxygen came into existence

As a scientist

Comment #89080 Posted by Glenda on March 25, 2006 01:28 AM (e) I'm astonished at the stupidity of posts here in response to an Innocent poem penned by an Innocent human being. Did anyone consider that this person is not the least bit interested in science, but instead is interested in the poetry of the workings of our universe? Nothing this person wrote is untrue. This is a poem guys. Grow up and smell the roses. Let's all try to table our irrational contempt of the faithful for a moment and rewrite the post in plain english [sic]: The theory of evolution cannot explain everything about the universe. For example, how did hydrogen and oxygen come to be and why can they form water so easily on earth and yet seem so rare everywhere else we look? And how does gravity work so consistently throughout the university that men can walk on the moon with the same motion as on the earth without worying [sic] about sudden changes in Newton's laws? The earth itself spins at precisely the right frequency needed to prevent undampened oscillations or wobbles that we would easily feel - dizzying undulations - why is this the case? Granted that the poetry isn't the best, but that's all is is. It does take a bit of imagination to think this way - a certain respect for nature and awe at her doings. Apparently none of you have either (imagination or respect, that is).

Great news: God's wife is pregnant!

Who's gonna have the baby shower?

Zec 14:17 And it shall be, [that] whoso will not come up of [all] the families of the

earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall

be no rain.

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun,

and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be

delivered.

Her husband said in Jhn 16:21, "A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because

her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no

more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world."

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of

iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne.

It's not over till the fat lady (pregnant wife) sings.,

Zec 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold,

thy King cometh unto thee: he [is] just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon

an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
She said, "If I come back, I'm comin' as a man. My husband rests every seventh
day. He sits on his ass, but woman's work is never done."
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might

fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times,

and half a time, from the face of the serpent. (She's a stay-at-home mom.)

It's all about family.

Zero

This has got to be intentional, there's no way anyone could be so stupid.

I mean evolution is about the simplest core scientfic idea there is, how could anyone misunderstand it like THIS!

Comment #89423
Posted by Timothy J Scriven on March 26, 2006 11:59 PM (e)

This has got to be intentional, there's no way anyone could be so stupid.

Comment #89424
Posted by Timothy J Scriven on March 27, 2006 12:01 AM (e)

I mean evolution is about the simplest core scientfic idea there is, how could anyone misunderstand it like THIS!

Zero

xxxxxxxxxxx

Tim, what is "THIS?"

I'm astonished at the stupidity of posts here in response to an inocent poem penned by an inocent human being.

What say you, is it not true that we don't know how or why hydrogen and oxygen came into existence

I know it wobbles, you moron, but if the earth's spin were just a little more or a little less we probably would't want to live here.

Zero
maybe Tim means THIS "this"

THIS is the meaning of life.

should be up your ally ;)

I know it wobbles, you moron, but if the earth's spin were just a little more or a little less we probably would't want to live here.

errr you do realize that the boxing day earthquake of 2004 made the earth wobble so much our day is now shorter by nanoseconds

and hydrogen and oxygen are made of actual "stardust" ...just like you are .......surprised you didnt know that .......most people learn that in general sci in high school....suppose you were absent that day (shrugs)