The Seguin Gazette-Enterprise, My Foot, and My Mouth

So, Mike, when does your other post disappear? :)

Wow. It's still kind of strange though. So, are they going to print retractions? Endorsements? Prove their story? Give more info? It seems that they have earned a small level of noteriety over this. How are they planning on exploiting it?

Everyone was wondering why the Seguin Gazette-Enterprise pulled all the Pianka stories. Well, none of us guessed and in hindsight it was rather obvious. At least it should have been obvious for me. The traffic generated by the stories was overwhelming the Gazette's server. As of this minute two followup Pianka stories that weren't linked by Drudge et al are back online. Forrest Mims explains it here.

Well, that makes more sense than what I thought they had done. I thought they updated the articles but they are just the same as the ones before. The april 2nd article is still missing in action however.

The latest article from the The Seguin Gazette-Enterprise now includes a charge from Pianka claiming "The man is rabid," Pianka said, describing Mims --- the man he calls an avowed enemy. "He has a warped world view." Additionally, Mims latest comments do not include his original charges.

Something still smells and it's not rotting fish.

Delta Pi Gamma (Scientia et Fermentum)

Apparently, the company had directed that the transcript and the audio recording from the speech be removed because both were at least partially incomplete. That was apparently misunderstood, with the result being that all of the materials were removed.

It appears that I didn't have the full story, and jumped to some conclusions in the earlier articles that were not entirely justified.

I'm not sure if that wasn't there before. I had thought they edited it at first but that turned out to be mistaken when I looked for the google cache. Mind I didn't do a very comprehensive analysis just enough to realise they hadn't been extensively updated as I first thought.

Instead, the article discussed in the post on QA is now pretty much just gone. They haven't replaced it yet, although that could just be an oversight given the new story.

Moreover, it doesn't explain why ALL references to Mims, Pianka, and even the likely response letters in the opnion section were removed so completely.

ha ha Evolution is proven by your un-necessary rambling. A panda's thumb has nothing to do with your religion called evolution. It can't be called science because you haven't proven it yet. Come on I'm a 13 year old kid and I'm smart enough to know that.

Come on I'm a 13 year old kid and I'm smart enough to know that.

How about no.

Curious, the last name of the reporter has also changed. Maybe she got married in the meanwhile. ;-)

D:

I didn't spot that. It could be possible, I've often thought that reporting on genocide and other ideas is the best time for a wedding.

I didn't spot that. It could be possible, I've often thought that reporting on genocide and other ideas is the best time for a wedding

Comment #95931 Posted by Tim on April 10, 2006 05:56 PM (e) ha ha Evolution is proven by your un-necessary rambling. A panda's thumb has nothing to do with your religion called evolution. It can't be called science because you haven't proven it yet. Come on I'm a 13 year old kid and I'm smart enough to know that.

I got up early this morning, and made several phone calls to try and get to the bottom of why all mention of Pianka had been expunged from the paper. Bottom line: big misunderstanding, and the articles are now back online. It had absolutely nothing to do with the paper trying to dodge responsibility for its actions, or the paper not standing behind the articles, or any of the other possibilities that I had thought were likely. It appears that I didn't have the full story, and jumped to some conclusions in the earlier articles that were not entirely justified.

#7 So why has the Seguin Gazette Enterprise pulled the entire story, including the Pianka transcript, from their website? My bet is the left wing of the science establishment got all lawyered up and threatened to dover the tiny Seguin Gazette for a million bucks. That's what biology is all about these days, don't you know, suing instead of science. But hey, suing and science both start with an 's' and have two syllables so it's all good. -ds Comment by Gerard Harbison --- April 7, 2006 @ 8:58 pm

#8 Dave, I think it is more likely that the paper realized that they had reported on hearsay, their source lacked credibility and they are trying to backktrack. Had they in fact been threatened with legal action, they would have put that on the front page and rolled out their First Amendment defense. The transcript of the speech and the recorded question could not be hearsay so your hypothesis seems to have a fatal flaw as those disappeared too. I think more likely they didn't have the legal right to publish the transcript and were coerced into pulling everything in order to avoid prosecution and stifle themselves about the deal. Another possibility is the Department of Homeland Security got involved and issued a national security gag order. In any case the silence is deafening. Something really smells rotten in the state of Denmark. -ds Comment by Dartos --- April 8, 2006 @ 1:59 pm

OT:

hmm, seems the front page of PT just disappeared?

anybody else having this problem?

nevermind, it's back for me now.

This is all an exercise in plausible deniability. They're in damage-control mode. The backlash is enormous, and heads have already begun to roll. Circle the wagon train.

Not really. That Mims account has fallen over since more facts have emerged only requires one head to roll here.

That would be Mims. If no action is taken concerning his overdone hysteria then I would be very surprised. At the very least, he'll have earnt the general dislike of those he works with. That's never a lot of fun.

and what about the folks still promulgating his spew? like Denyse Leary?

what about Dembski calling the Gestapo?

all water under the bridge, i suppose.

oh, let's not forget the death threats.

truth is, many heads should roll here, but Mims will likely be the scapegoat, since he started it.

It's funny to see DaveScot try to defend opinion of the matter and arrogantly respond to Mike Dunford's report.

Mike was informed by Southern Newspapers that the Pianka articles were removed because of a miscommunication between the corporate office and SGE. SNI only wanted the partial transcripts removed. (Given the response of the SGE to Mike, there may be some tension between the local office and corporate office.)

DaveScot, on the other hard, uses second-hand information to guess that an IT person removed the articles because of server load. (And I guess neglected to tell his bosses that their most popular article was gone.)

Which one has more support behind it?

The ID community sent their cavalry in the wrong direction. They should pray now that they don't get Sioux'ed.

The stated mission of the ID camp is to find an intelligent designer.
However, why do they insist on finding someone's a** (namely Pianka's) to kick instead?

I subscribe to the possibility of ID, but this offensive on Pianka was not an example of intelligent design. My fraternity claims to be in the right, but now they find themselves in the rut.

in the rut.

yup.

you still have a chance to get out.

will you take it?

I have learned that a Cornell University professor is going to teach a course that scrutinizes the Darwinist/ID debate. Your thoughts?

http://telicthoughts.com/?p=634

you're a little late on the draw there; it's already been brought up both on PT and ATBC.

However, so far in looking at the course syallabus and the recommended reading list (especially the optional one), it looks like the prof. is presenting the history of the formation of the ID concept from earlier creation"science", and then deliberately challenging his students to do the research on each of the claims made.

the funny thing is, as a college course, this sounds like a fine idea.

ID only can exist as a concept in ignorance. As you yourself just showed us well in the other thread.

In fact, I'd recommend you take this course yourself.

You might actually be forced to recognize the flaws in logic and execution that run rampant in WD40's ramblings, since you refuse to examine them here.

a bit much for a high school student tho.

Hey Apollo-

hmm, not that I'm the official anything here, but since we ditched our last big troll recently, would you care to apply for the position?

If you have followed PT at all in the last few months you may have noticed posts by one Larry Fafarman.

He got a wee too vindictive, tiresome, and broke the posting rules here to boot, so we had to dump him.

You seem far more reasonable and interesting than larry was.

care for the job?

it doesn't pay anything, and you likely will be the subject of derision for much of the time, but you always have the opportunity to change our minds, provided you can provide evidence to do so.

ID advocates ought to read more of MacNeill's posts on Evolution List before they get all excited about ID being taught. MacNeill seems to be a sharp guy. I do pity the people in the course, though, because Dembski's The Design Inference is required reading, and it's about the most painfully obfuscatory book one would want to try to read. I read it twice and it hurt both times.

RBH

He doesn't like Dembski at all as well, which I found an interesting tidbit. He's taken a bit of flack for his opinions on Dembski, which he has made rather clear, over at Telic Thoughts. Personally I happen to agree with him and I don't think this course is going to be quite what the IDists expect. Take his questions he asked in the thread about this at TT. Without a detailed knowledge of ID rhetoric, answering them (or should I say, obsfuscating the point while pretending to answer them in an ID favourable manner) is not something that will be easy for someone unfamiliar with the debate.

It's going to be very interesting to see what the reaction to the course will actually be.

yes, yes. I think we are spoiling the good professor's fishing expedition.

*wink*

The stated mission of the ID camp is to find an intelligent designer. However, why do they insist on finding someone's a** (namely Pianka's) to kick instead?

— apollo230

The stated mission of the ID camp is to find an intelligent designer. However, why do they insist on finding someone's a** (namely Pianka's) to kick instead?

— apollo230

The stated mission of the ID camp is to find an intelligent designer.

The stated mission of the ID camp is to find an intelligent designer.

FIVE YEAR STRATEGIC PLAN SUMMARY The social consequences of materialism have been devastating. As symptoms, those consequences are certainly worth treating. However, we are convinced that in order to defeat materialism, we must cut it off at its source. That source is scientific materialism. This is precisely our strategy. If we view the predominant materialistic science as a giant tree, our strategy is intended to function as a "wedge" that, while relatively small, can split the trunk when applied at its weakest points. The very beginning of this strategy, the "thin edge of the wedge," was Phillip ]ohnson's critique of Darwinism begun in 1991 in Darwinism on Trial, and continued in Reason in the Balance and Defeating Darwinism by Opening Minds. Michael Behe's highly successful Darwin's Black Box followed Johnson's work. We are building on this momentum, broadening the wedge with a positive scientific alternative to materialistic scientific theories, which has come to be called the theory of intelligent design (ID). Design theory promises to reverse the stifling dominance of the materialist worldview, and to replace it with a science consonant with Christian and theistic convictions. Twenty Year Goals To see intelligent design theory as the dominant perspective in science. To see design theory application in specific fields, including molecular biology, biochemistry, paleontology, physics and cosmology in the natural sciences, psychology, ethics, politics, theology and philosophy in the humanities; to see its influence in the fine arts. To see design theory permeate our religious, cultural, moral and political life.

"Yet there's more, for Professor Pianka and his Ebola plush toy made an appearance at St. Edwards University in Austin, Texas, on 31 March 2006. There he showed the same Power Point slides of skulls and Ebola. But he went even farther this time, perhaps not knowing that reporter Jamie Mobley and her tape recorder were present. The lecture was also recorded by a reporter for a major magazine.You can read Jamie's story here if the servers are not crashing from her follow up stories."

— Mims

Good morning, Corkscrew! Thanks for your comments.

I am not crazy about the pushiness or the moral arrogance of the Christian far-right. Their ideas do not belong in public schools or in Congress, for that matter. I am aware of the Discovery Institute's Wedge document, which does prove that this element has taken up ID for its own purposes. By inviting fundamentalists into its big tent (Bruce Thompson alluded to this in a prior post) the ID "camp"-namely good ship Discovery-has guaranteed for itself a backlash, because fundamentalist actions and arrogance has left a long trail of historical ruin behind it. ID only contaminates itself if it gets too political or mixes itself up with aggressively religious elements.

Some will say that ID is contaminated period, with or without overtly theistic involvements, and that I should give up the belief altogether. That I cannot do because teleology is in my bones, I guess. If that makes me look foolish, just call me Panda's Thumbs very own Village Idiot, Corkscrew! I am sure that some will be very happy to oblige, but if they do, they should do so in good humor, because even teleologists have feelings! :)

Best regards,

apollo230

apollo230:

No, we know you're not an idiot. Water runs downhill because it was intended to run downhill. And thus, we have insight into the Mind of God. Right?

This all seems like excellent material for NPR's show, "On the Media." I wonder if they have any plans to address this issue?

Some will say that ID is contaminated period, with or without overtly theistic involvements, and that I should give up the belief altogether. That I cannot do because teleology is in my bones, I guess.

— apollo230

There are also many many people who see it merely as a way to do an end-run round Edwards v Aguillard (the case where creation science got smacked down).

— Corkscrew

Their [the fundamentalist's] ideas do not belong in public schools or in Congress, for that matter.

By inviting fundamentalists into its big tent (Bruce Thompson alluded to this in a prior post) the ID "camp"-namely good ship Discovery-has guaranteed for itself a backlash, because fundamentalist actions and arrogance has left a long trail of historical ruin behind it.

ID only contaminates itself if it gets too political or mixes itself up with aggressively religious elements.

Some will say that ID is contaminated period, with or without overtly theistic involvements, and that I should give up the belief altogether.

That I cannot do because teleology is in my bones, I guess. If that makes me look foolish

I am sure that some will be very happy to oblige, but if they do, they should do so in good humor, because even teleologists have feelings!

A panda's thumb has nothing to do with your religion called evolution. It can't be called science because you haven't proven it yet. Come on I'm a 13 year old kid and I'm smart enough to know that.

A quick question: I thought heat could only flow from high concentrations to low. But my refrigerator insists of pumping heat from low concentration to high. Doesn't this violate the laws of thermodynamics? If you can't explain this mystery to me _right_now_, what makes you think you understand science well enough to comment on matters scientific? :-)

Fly on the Wall:Mims wrote: "Yet there's more, for Professor Pianka and his Ebola plush toy made an appearance at St. Edwards University in Austin, Texas, on 31 March 2006. There he showed the same Power Point slides of skulls and Ebola. But he went even farther this time , perhaps not knowing that reporter Jamie Mobley and her tape recorder were present.The lecture was also recorded by a reporter for a major magazine.You can read Jamie's story here if the servers are not crashing from her follow up stories." (emphasis mine)

Pianka extended that invitation to the Gazette-Enterprise, where the publication made a digital recording of Pianka's lecture.

I am aware of the Discovery Institute's Wedge document, which does prove that this element has taken up ID for its own purposes.

— apollo230

because fundamentalist actions and arrogance has left a long trail of historical ruin behind it.

ID only contaminates itself if it gets too political or mixes itself up with aggressively religious elements.

It simply shows how far from scientific thinking you are.

Sir Toejam, perhaps you can answer this. Apollo says that he is into teleology (it's in his bones!) - does that mean that he studies teleosts? Yet another embracing his inner fish?

yikes, that was bad.

I suppose that's why they call it ichthyology as opposed to "teleostology"

actually, the real reason is that teleosts are bony fishes, and ichthyology embraces the study of all fishes, both bony and not, jawless and jawed.

Interestingly, while there are plenty of ichthyologists who only study relatively few (or even one) species of bony fish, they still don't refer to themselves as teleostologists, nor even wrt the specific genus they study, like "cichlidist" or "pomacentridist".

Likewise when i was studying sharks, I didn't refer to myself as an "elasmobranchologist".

hmm, it seems to me that other than those that study humans (anthropologists), those who study animals usually refer to themselves at essentially the "order" level.

entomologist
mammologist
herpetologist

...

sorry, i felt i had to punish you for that horrid attempt at humor

;P

at essentially the "order" level

Once he realizes that evolution isn't any more "atheistic" than is gravity or nuclear physics or economics or the rules of baseball, he will understand how deeply and profoundly the IDers have been lying to him.

oh and since the subject was raised, and Apollo is apparently interested in teleology, perhaps a reference to a good discussion of it is in order?

here:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/teleology-biology/

It's a good thought, anyhow.

Hope springs eternal, I guess.

Of course, if all the fundamentalist atheists jump all over him, that will remove any possible hope. (sigh)

Please Sir. May I have another?

I'm just a mere ecologist with a warped sense of humour.

Please Sir. May I have another?

"Please Sir. May I have another?"

I think the phrase you're looking for is actually,

"Thank you, sir. May I have another?"

as uttered by a young Kevin Bacon in "Animal House".

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=351627
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0077975/quotes

I was actually inspired by that classic movie 'Oliver Twist meets Animal House: the Smack Down'.

The speech that the Seguin Gazette supposedly posted is no longer there. Can QA call them again about that?

Of course it's not there - that was the part that the corporate offices wanted taken down because it wasn't complete, as Mike already reported.

I no longer even bother trying. The payoff simply isn't worth the effort. And for every one who changes his mind, there are a gazillion more uneducated dolts willing to step into his place.

True. But you may diminish the ardor and energy some of them bring to the debate, simply by showing them that arguments refuting their "science" don't follow the script their preachers give them. I suspect that once they learn the hard way that they can't "win" the argument as easily as they're led to believe, many of them will just keep their beliefs to themselves, and sit out the big shouting-matches.

Oh, I don't at all mind pounding their dumbass arguments into talcum powder, right in front of everyone.

:)

I am simply under no illusion at all that any of it is remotely likely to change a fundies' mind. That's simply not my goal.