<i>Et tu</i>, Francis Collins?

Francis is certainly keeping some great company these days, idn't he?

Yes. I was a bit disgusted with his illogical rationalizations before, but there were a lot of people saying he was good for the cause of biology even so...it really doesn't matter what he says on this program, though. It's enough that he's lending his reputation to this cacophony of charlatans.

Can we please, please, please dispense with the notion that "if we could just show them that evolution is only incompatible with literalism they'll become spiritually sophisticated science endorsers" now?

Shame on Collins. The guy has sold his soul to the bunch of sharlatans and incompoops. Well, it was known before that education makes a fool an educated fool. Apparently a successful science research makes a fool a scientifically prominent fool. Perhaps he'll get the Discovery Institute fellow status along with Berlinski, Gilder, and Dembski. What a company!

There are realy only two successful ways to deal with the kind of cognitive dissonance Collins was dealing with as he observed the death of his parents, and those just represent dropping on or the other worldview that is in conflict.

typically, it's the irrational worldview that is dumped.

In collin's case, it was the reverse.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-2220484,00.html

The evangelicals eased his pain. that was the decider for his strained brain.

I actually pity the man, but I'm sure he feels much better about having chosen a specific worldview, such as it is.

...do note, however, that all of his claims fall under the "theistic evolutionist" category, so if others in the evangelical movement claim he is an IDer, or a creationist of any other sort, they are lying.

It sure is hard to believe that Francis Collins is willing to be seen with these jokers. Collins is very much like Ken Miller-- a man of faith who is also a serious mainstream scientist. We'll see what happens.

This show will simply be an updated regurgitation of empty creationist rhetoric. Kennedy has been trotting out all his old anti-evolution TV shows over the past month.

You can sample the claptrap (e.g. Kennedy has the "evolutionist" members of the Supreme Court saying "Nein" to prayer in the classroom...) at this link:

http://www.coralridge.org/BroadcastArchives.asp?cat=crh&daterange=7/30/2006-8/31/2006

Broadcasts dated from 7/30 onwards are all diatribes against evolution. Be warned, it's all really dreadful stuff.

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited." -Adolf Hitler, in his speech in Munich on 12 April 1922

Do we yet know if Collins even knew that he was being interviewed for fundamentalist tripe? It not a good idea to start to condemn Collins until we know what his side of the story is. Heck do we even know if Collins really was interviewed by the fundies as opposed to them buying some recycled some previous interview with context edited out?

Nick: it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference what Collins' role in this production is - given the medium, whatever he says can and will be used against evolution.

So he's either a schmuck or a Brutus. Either is possible; neither is laudable.

PZ, if you'd like to hit harder on that Darwin caused Hitler BS, check out this website:

And this:

http://www.geocities.com/lflank/nazis.htm

Also available at the Talk.Reason archives:

http://www.talkreason.org/articles/Hitler.cfm

And while everyone is at the Talk.Reason archives, check out the e-book version of my Creation "Science" Debunked website, available at:

http://www.talkreason.org/articles/deception.cfm

Contains a history of fundamentalism in the US, a history of ID/creationism, and detailed looks at Arkansas, Louisiana, Kansas, Ohio and Dover.

PZ, if you'd like to hit harder on that Darwin caused Hitler BS, check out this website:

Apart from Nick Matze's comments, most comments have simply been ill-informed bullshit reflecting more ignorance and prejudice than any creationists site. I shall go on one of them to get to relative sanity.

You can no more argue with these "posters" than Hovind.

This is one of those cases where I really would love to discover my foot in my mouth. If every time the microphone is in front of his face, he delivers a merciless, unquoteminable harangue against ID, I'll be happy to eat my words. Or crow. Or my foot, or however that metaphor is supposed to play out.

But honestly, what insight does the head of the HGP think he has to contribute to a "Darwin = Hitler LOL" hatefest? What rock could he have been hiding under to not understand that Johnathan Wells and Ann Coulter don't just "take a different view on scriptural literalism", but that they are incorrigibly dishonest hucksters who don't deserve any benefit of any doubt?

I'm actually a bit of a connoiseur of hate radio (last time I went back to Hamilton County, TN where I grew up, there were three Christianist stations on the FM dial alone), and I've been listening to D. James Kennedy for longer than I've followed ID. The man is Kent Hovind in a cheap tuxedo, and his politics are Ahmansonian. Maybe -- just maybe, but I doubt it -- Collins is even more of a political naif than his "frozen waterfall trinity" homily suggests, and he simply doesn't understand what he's doing. But agreeing to come on a show with that subject, with those guests, hosted by that organization does not make it more than vanishingly unlikely that he will produce a victory for science education.

With allies like these, who needs enemies?

People like Francis Collins are the only ones that can accomplish that.

Nick, if Collins repudiates the show and announces that his name was used to endorse it without his understanding of the content of the program or without his permission, I'll happily give him the thumbs up and apologize for assuming he had sold out.

Otherwise, though, I do not consider Collins an ally in any way. My goal is to see a rational world where people respect reason and knowledge--and I've read Collins' book. He is not on my side. We will not 'win' this war to see evolution accepted if the only way is to get it married off to dogma and authoritarianism and irrationality; the end doesn't justify the means.

Bah - can we just wait to see what Collins's contribution to the program was? Maybe - just maybe - he was the only voice of sanity in that bleating flock of lunatics.

Sure, even in that case perhaps it would have been better for him not to participate, but that's his prerogative, and a debatable point reasonable people may disagree about. Also, Dawkins got snookered by Creationist documentarists once, perhaps this is the case with Collins. Who knows.

Regardless, there's almost always a Dr. Duh (emeritus) from Whatever State willing to participate in these things, and some Duhs may in fact be better than others.

For those in the UK the Coral Ridge hour is broadcast on TBN Europe,Sky Digital channel 763, on Saturday afternoons at 3pm. TBN is free to air and doesn't require a subscription or viewing card.

Last Saturday (yesterday) he featured this story:

http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&id=2589

There was quite a long interview with Caroline Crocker. They also spoke to this guy and mentioned the IDEA club at the George Mason University:

http://www.ideacenter.org/contentmgr/showdetails.php/id/1343

Francis Collins seems to be simply a naive, almost childishly innocent individual, about everything except his own narrow research area. I've noted elsewhere he seems to be completely unfamiliar with the major ideas in modern population genetics. His political naivety is not unusual: we all know lots of scientists who are utterly out of touch with the world outside their laboratory. What is a little suprising is that such an individual was chosen for such a public post, where politics is surely a major part of the job.

I've no doubt whatever he said will be cut out of context, misused, and distorted. But it really will serve him right; there's no excuse for someone in his position not to be media savvy.

I've no doubt whatever he said will be cut out of context, misused, and distorted. But it really will serve him right; there's no excuse for someone in his position not to be media savvy.

Why certain folks go out of their way to stomp on their allies, I don't understand. If you think that getting rid of religion is the solution to the creation/evolution wars, I think you are simply delusional. Religion is not going to go away. The only way the creation/evolution issue will ever be resolved is if the evangelicals make their peace with evolution. People like Francis Collins are the only ones that can accomplish that.

Otherwise, though, I do not consider Collins an ally in any way. My goal is to see a rational world where people respect reason and knowledge---and I've read Collins' book. He is not on my side. We will not 'win' this war to see evolution accepted if the only way is to get it married off to dogma and authoritarianism and irrationality; the end doesn't justify the means.

"If you think that getting rid of religion is the solution to the creation/evolution wars, I think you are simply delusional. Religion is not going to go away."

— Al Moritz, Nick Matzke

PZ Myers,

well, you did not exactly answer my question, did you?

(Your reply though was kind of interesting, I must say - if witty, funny or just plain annoying depends on the way you look at it.)

I believe someone can be both religious and a great scientist, because human beings are messy creatures who can hold many mutually contradictory ideas in their heads at once. That does not mean, though, that religiosity acquires some virtue by proximity to reason -- it's still bogus.

And, unfortunately, I think those scientist/communicators who are religious are very, very poor role models, precisely because of the kind of argument you just made. It tempts people to grant the respect they give to the 'scientist' part of the person to the 'irrational noodlewit' part that believes in invisible phantasms with super powers. As is so clearly on display in Francis Collins, the skills and abilities that allow him to succeed in science are suspended whenever he babbles about religion.

(sigh) Here we go again . . . . . .

Well, as you probably know by now, Collins was not aware that he was being used in the video.

So I guess that makes most of you liars, doesn't it?

As for Darwin, he was a racist ass, but is always excused as being a product of his time.

Well then, the idea of the survival of the fittest (introduced by Spencer but ACCEPTED by Darwin in later issues of the Origin) was frankly a product of 19th century British Victorian racist elitism.

And yep, Hitler derived ispiration from Darwin in the formation of his elitist racist theories.

No doubt about it.

And yep, Hitler derived ispiration from Darwin in the formation of his elitist racist theories. No doubt about it.

So, PZ, I'm curious: How do you know that Collins hasn't thought as carefully and thoroughly about the relationship between science and religion as you have?

You assume that he can only reconcile the two by suspending his sense of reason. But just because you can't fit science and religion together hardly means that nobody else can.

This is when your atheism comes across as arrogance: the same species of arrogance we get from fundamentalists who can't understand that there are points of view other than their own. There are more things in heaven and earth-- and more ways of relating the two-- than are dreamt of in our philosophy.

So, PZ, I'm curious: How do you know that Collins hasn't thought as carefully and thoroughly about the relationship between science and religion as you have?

This is when your atheism comes across as arrogance: the same species of arrogance we get from fundamentalists who can't understand that there are points of view other than their own.

And yep, Hitler derived ispiration from Darwin in the formation of his elitist racist theories.

Am I the only one that has noticed similarities in the posts of Christensen, JB and Wing|ess. Isn't it against the rules to post under multiple names?

If you are doing this Christensen, I suggest you stop. If you are not I sincerely apologize for the insinuation.

Am I the only one that has noticed similarities in the posts of Christensen, JB and Wing|ess. Isn't it against the rules to post under multiple names?

As for Darwin, he was a racist ass, but is always excused as being a product of his time.

— The Christensen Squad

By the way, a negro lived in Edinburgh, who had travelled with Waterton and gained his livelihood by stuffing birds, which he did excellently; he gave me lessons for payment, and I used often to sit with him, for he was a very pleasant and intelligent man.

Great God how I should like to see the greatest curse on Earth Slavery abolished.

For instance, early in the voyage at Bahia in Brazil he defended and praised slavery, which I abominated, and told me that he had just visited a great slave-owner, who had called up many of his slaves and asked them whether they were happy, and whether they wished to be free, and all answered "No." I then asked him, perhaps with a sneer, whether he thought that the answers of slaves in the presence of their master was worth anything. This made him excessively angry, and he said that as I doubted his word, we could not live any longer together.

The Indians are now so terrified that they offer no resistance in a body, but each flies, neglecting even his wife and children; but when overtaken, like wild animals, they fight against any number to the last moment....Every one here is fully convinced that this is the most just war, because it is against barbarians. Who would believe in this age that such atrocities could be committed in a Christian civilized country?

This posta was commanded by a negro lieutenant, born in Africa: to his credit be it said, there was not a ranche between the Colorado and Buenos Ayres in nearly such neat order as his....I did not anywhere meet a more civil and obliging man than this negro; it was therefore the more painful to see that he would not sit down and eat with us.

I was pleased with nothing so much as with the inhabitants. There is a mildness in the expression of their countenances which at once banishes the idea of a savage; and intelligence which shows that they are advancing in civilization....It has been remarked, that it requires little habit to make a dark skin more pleasing and natural to the eye of an European than his own colour. A white man bathing by the side of a Tahitian, was like a plant bleached by the gardener's art compared with a fine dark green one growing vigorously in the open fields.

None of you seem to have read Francis Collins's book, i.e. his own words. Everyone is talking about the bad company he keeps. The book is coherent, rational, well-written, entirely true to scientific facts and method. He does not pretend that there is "scientific proof" for his faith. He merely says that he finds them entirely compatible. You don't have to share his faith to accept his scienctific research, you don't have to accept his science to share his faith. But the man certainly is no fool.

Ann Coulter? Good grief. Coulter isn't a conservative, Ann Coulter is crazy.