Creato-Terrorism

Assuming this isn't something else (a bad joke, etc.), this would not surprise me in the least. I believe I've mentioned here before that I expect some Creationist/ID factions to resort to violence simply because they A) have nothing left, and B) are so wrapped up in demonizing people.

I also predict that if this news gets mentioned in the ID/Creationist circles, you'll have a decent amount of them saying this is clearly a hoax to discredit them.

Maybe one of our Colorado connections will give us a scan of the letters. I'm curious if it has random punctuation and capitalization.

Wow, all that ever happened to me was getting my darwin fish (on my car) vandalized. I kinda expected it which is why I bought a five-pack the first time round.

The creationists, frustrated at continued legal losses and the complete lack of respect they receive from scientists, have finally past the threshold from trying to distort science in schools to attacking science in a more direct fashion.

Seriously, I'm sure most are opposed to even the threats of violence, let alone carrying them out.

I'm going to side with Steve here on this. If this is indeed a case of a Creationist/ID group making threats, then I would put the blame at the door of the people making inflammatory remarks on the Creationist/ID side.

There's been a lot of overheated rhetoric about how "Darwinism" is destroying people, is responsible for genocide, etc. The rhetoric out there is frankly quite heated, and heated rhetoric can easily mean people end up burned.

I'm not surprised at all. Scan http://evilbender.wordpress.com/2007/05/03/in-case-you-missed-it-the-discovery-institutes-disturbing-legacy/ for an explanation:

"...Howard Ahmanson, a wealthy Californian who is heir to the Home Savings bank fortune. In the '70s Ahmanson joined Rushdoony's Christian Reconstructionist movement and served as a board member of Rushdoony's Chalcedon Foundation for over ten years. Ahmanson currently serves on (the) Discovery (Institute)'s board of directors and is its largest contributor. His gift of $1.5 million provided the seed money to organize Discovery's Center for Science and Culture."

Check out the Wikipedia articles on "Dominionism" and "Christian Reconstructionism" if you want to see where some of these folks are coming from. Blowing up abortion clinics may now move on to blowing up the evil evolutionist labs.

All that's needed is a creato-fatwa (unless the wedgie can be considered the model). . .any suggestions for suicide id(ers)summer camp activities? Non-Darwinian Anthrax dispersal relay races . . .Oh, my - - -if he's the decider does that make bush the intelligent designer who decides to invent? . . .does your head hurt as much as mine?

So.. will the DI:

1) distance themselves from this irresponsible action and categorically eschew violence;

2) ignore it and hope it goes away, or

3) blame the victims?

Place your bets now.

The DI will claim its a conspiracy at most, ignore it completely at best. They will not rebuke the action in any way.

I'm on the side of those saying "he who spews inflammatory rhetoric deserves a dressing down", but those who act have the ultimate responsibility for the act.

Several of us here in Texas have given up putting Darwin fish on our cars. Despite their supposedly superior moral base, the good Christians can't resist breaking Commandment #8. And how do I know they are Christians you might ask? They are kind enough to leave love notes wishing us an eternal torment if we don't accept JAY-zus.

Christian terrorist organizations http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism Army of God Several Christians who have targeted abortion providers have had close ties to the militant organization Army of God, including the former Presbyterian minister Paul Jennings Hill, Michael F. Griffin, and the Reverend Michael Bray. Eric Rudolph, Clayton Waagner, and James Kopp all had links to the Army of God. Does misery like company? Christian terrorists have been active in the USA since forever. The more recent targets have been nonwhites from the christian identity movement (neonazis) and MDs and other health care workers. More than a few of the latter have been murdered. At least evolution and related subjects are a target rich environment. From talkorigins, roughly 1/2 million people work in biology, medicine, geology, paleontology and astronomy. As PZ said, probably nothing to worry about. Christian cultists deranged enough to be murderous are usually deranged enough to not be able to plan and carry out a competent assasination or suicide car bombing or whatever. Ummmm, well at least I hope so. PS These christian cultists are sick and evil and their religion is fake and nothing to do with real christianity. Posted by: raven

fnxtr So.. will the DI: 1) distance themselves from this irresponsible action and categorically eschew violence; 2) ignore it and hope it goes away, or 3) blame the victims?

"Seriously, I'm sure most are opposed to even the threats of violence, let alone carrying them out. Their potential threats to education and liberty are great enough without suggesting that creationists as a whole support bodily threats."

Yeah, we just teach that all people outside of our belief system are evil and that pretty soon God is going to rapture us all to heaven and exterminate them all. Not only that, the beliefs of others are responsible for all the suffering in the world and are a danger to you, your children, and your immortal soul.

But we don't support violence. We're peaceful people. We leave that to others, and then we look the other way.

That's how it works, folks. It's exactly the same in the middle east. All Muslims aren't violent at all, let alone suicide bombers or terrorists, but most just look the other way and continue to support the ideology that inspires such behavior.

If anyone threatened violence in the name of anything that I think or believe, not only would I be the first to condemn it but it would probably cause me to question aspects of my beliefs. If it was just one lone nut then oh well, but if it became a pattern then I'd start to wonder if something was wrong with the ideas themselves.

Silence implies consent.

Boulder Colorado. Is there a more liberal town in the USA? Here pets have been redesignated as "animal companions" and have their own set of civil rights. Unfortunately since the McCartney era (promise keepers), scandals regarding the Buffs, Jon-Benet Ramsey, gay-bashing (literally), and now this, all is not cool in the land of Celestial
Seasonings. What to do? My guess is that this is either a prank or comes from one of the nearby bastions of wingnuttry such as Nederland or Ward. Why this didn't happen at Colorado College (in Colorado Springs-home of focus on the family and the pro rodeo hall of fame) is more mysterious to me. Perhaps they don't have such a Biology department. Did anyone bother to identify the mountain bike tread patterns of the perps as they made their escape down the Boulder Creek path?

Boulder Colorado. Is there a more liberal town in the USA? Here pets have been redesignated as "animal companions" and have their own set of civil rights. Unfortunately since the McCartney era (promise keepers), scandals regarding the Buffs, Jon-Benet Ramsey, gay-bashing (literally), and now this, all is not cool in the land of Celestial
Seasonings. What to do? My guess is that this is either a prank or comes from one of the nearby bastions of wingnuttry such as Nederland or Ward. Why this didn't happen at Colorado College (in Colorado Springs-home of focus on the family and the pro rodeo hall of fame) is more mysterious to me. Perhaps they don't have such a Biology department. Did anyone bother to identify the mountain bike tread patterns of the perps as they made their escape down the Boulder Creek path?

Seriously, I'm sure most are opposed to even the threats of violence, let alone carrying them out.

I would put the blame at the door of the people making inflammatory remarks on the Creationist/ID side

While a gross generalization, I don't think the evidence indicates it an unwarranted one.

Re "any suggestions for suicide id(ers) summer camp activities?"

Stop using modern (evolution derived ones, at least) medicine?

Henry

Robert Heinlein wrote a story in the late 1930's, serialized in 1940, "If This Goes On-" (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_This_Goes_On) wherein a backwoods preacher is elected president of the US in 2012, then dictator of a theocratic USA. Not bad for an almost 70-year-old prediction...

Ought we to adopt the strategy of IDists of stereotyping their opponents? Reuland, Dragonscholar, Ierymenko, and STJ have not begun to make a case for painting our opponents with the broad brush of actually "attacking science in a more direct fashion," they have only appealed to factors which may aid and abet those who do. I was not addressing the latter (so quit stereotyping yet again), I was addressing the narrow issue of including creationists in general as "attacking science in a more direct fashion."

— Glen Davidson

As I recall, and as the evidence indicates, the gross generalization was what I objected to.

No one here, that I know of, questions the repressed violence, the ressentiment, that causes your average IDist and creationist to long for heaven for themselves, hell for their opponents (you see it on UD all the time).

well, if we consider the creationist blogs and commenters frequenting those blogs, then the evidence is quite skewed towards those representatives in fact commonly posting violent thoughts about "evolutionists". yes, even among the putative "leaders" of the creation/ID movements. and you have what evidence to counter that, exactly?

the ASA

Amateur Softball Association of America American Society of Anesthesiologists - Welcome! Advertising Standards Authority Amateur Swimming Association American Statistical Association - the nation's leading ... The Acoustical Society of America American Sociological Association | Home The American Sociological Association, founded in 1905, is a non-profit membership Automotive Service Association ( ASA ) Asa Dotzler - Firefox and more Autism Society of America:

Perhaps you have fallen victim to self selection, since you tend to frequent blogs where commenters tend to be more 'violent' in their thoughts?

...or perhaps I should just scan the talkorigins feedback section for the last couple of years and pull out the numerous responses from creationists telling the volunteers for the site that they will all die in hellfire?

or maybe here on PT?

I'd wager I could find quite a few entries in the feedback area on TO of that nature, let alone the ones that were likely rejected as simply being TOO insane.

i rather think you tend to lean towards the college educated creationist being typical of the group as a whole, and YOU are colored by your experiences with the likes of the students that Allen MacNeil worked with.

Perhaps you need to spend some time looking at the grass-roots sites the average fundie prefers to post at most of the time?

try the Christian Exodus site, for example.

spend some time there and tell me there isn't a preponderance of violent expression.

no... Steve IS onto the right track here. While certainly not all fundie xians are going to become terrorists, it HAS been the breeding ground for both the local and nonlocal variety.

the moment you start thinking that maybe the fundies aren't so bad, along comes a group like the Westboro Baptists, with Fred Phelps.

tell me those people aren't terrorists.

have finally past the threshold

It's exactly the same in the middle east. All Muslims aren't violent at all, let alone suicide bombers or terrorists, but most just look the other way and continue to support the ideology that inspires such behavior.

— Adam Ierymenko

Ierymenko can rationalize his violent impulses against Muslims as much as he wants, he makes no case, he just writes a bunch of emotional blather to hide the fact that he has no case. So that he can remain silent about (or even to applaud, perhaps) the violations of Palestinian rights, self-determination, and opportunities. I know hypocrisy when I see it.

— Glen Davidson

What is ASA?

Interesting Historical Note: The change to the American Sociological Association was one of the quickest developments in the history of formal organizations. It had previously been the American Sociological Society, or A.... Well, you can work it out for yourselves.

United Fruit and Banana Republic are now both brand names

where do the majority of creationists consider their interests best represented, Pim?

It seems clear to me that Sir Toejam indeed is suffering from some selection bias.

ASA http://www.asa3.org/ The American Scientific Affiliation

And speaking of the talkorigins feedback section (see comment #187023)-- has it gone extinct? Nothing but fossils there anymore.

Place your bets now.

— fnxtr

"Indeed. And as bad as the Palestinian situation is, it pales in comparison to the violence literally rained down on the Middle East. Not only do Americans look the other away from the immense violence that their tax dollars have paid for over many decades, they remain blissfully unaware of the ideology that inspires it. Imagine: United Fruit and Banana Republic are now both brand names --- the ultimate cooptation of a concept. And these days, not only do U.S. tax dollars pay for the U.S. military and intelligence operatives to invade countries and overthrow governments in the interests of private corporations, but U.S. tax dollars pay for private corporate military and intelligence operatives to invade countries and overthrow governments in the interests of private corporations."

Yup. Us commie atheist baby-eating liberals have been pointing out all those things for quite some time.

Which ideology is used domestically to justify this behavior of our own? Fundie Christianity. ...at least at the level of the masses-- there are more "sophisticated" imperialist ideologises at the top. That's how the whole model works. Religion is pushed for the hoi-polloi.

The creationists, frustrated at continued legal losses and the complete lack of respect they receive from scientists,...

have finally past the threshold from trying to distort science in schools to attacking science in a more direct fashion.

quite frankly im not surprised this hasnt happened before ...some of those creos are real nuts

...Behavior which is rewarded is encouraged. When you reward terrorism, you shouldn't be surprised when it grows and spreads

"and having learned from observation that most scientists are liberals, and most liberals are puling cowards against whom terrorism works like a charm"

... I'm afraid you're right. The Islamists have taught the west that if you want your religion to be respected, kill people. Christian fundamentalists might be learning.

"...wearing our ID badges" - you mean you'd have to wear badges supporting ID? Wow, that would suck.

Seriously, I'm sure most (creationists) are opposed to even the threats of violence, let alone carrying them out.

There is a backlash against the fundie cultists. The average American is getting fed up with what is a minority twisting of the christian religion.

1. They practice human sacrifice. Of children. Of other people's children. 3,600 US dead, 35,000 seriously maimed.

2. They state very publicly that they want to destroy the USA and set up hell on earth. Many argue that the Bush administration has made a good start.

3. The fundie terrorism and constant attempts to destroy peoples freedoms to plan their families and learn science and obtain medical care aren't too popular either. Movements based on lies and violence historically have ultimately failed. Does anyone really think that Tim McVeigh, that great American fundie patriot is a hero for murdering 168 people in Oklahoma? Outside the bible belt anyway.

There is some hard data on this. Bushco is now rated about the lowest in the history of the USA. The people are fed up with the futile human sacrifice for no gain thing.

The soft data are my own and others observations. Books on atheism are very popular. When the creos spout their nonsense, a lot of people stand up and call them the deluded liars they are. When some fundie fanatic pops up on unrelated threads e.g. home repair and starts spouting nonsense, quite often a torrent of ridicule follows.

In the USA, religious movements have come and gone before. Social movements run in cycles. The message of the creo-fundies is human reason is bad, freedom is bad, progress is bad, lies are good, hate is good. This is so far from our core values that I can't see it going much farther.

At any rate, all that is necessary for evil to succeed is for good people to do nothing. That is why I'm calling them on what they are, what they want.

Should we stereotype the creationists unfairly? No. But we SHOULD confront every creationist we find with such criminal acts -- especially those running for public office -- force them to say something about it, and hold their words up to the public. Either they will try to kinda-sorta condone such terrorism, in which case we can label them terrorist-sympathizers; or they'll try to avoid the subject, in which case we can label them dishonest spineless cowards; or they'll agree that such acts are criminal and wrong, in which case we can nudge them to stand with us in supporting the rule of law.

FL: I notice you yourself didn't state whether or not you were opposed to such violent and anti-democratic tactics. Any comment?

Is this actually something new, or is this one just being reported, while other incidents have not been? IIRC, there was a fair amount of this going on at UC Berkeley and San Jose State in the 70's and early 80's. It was mainly about genetic engineering, but there was a fair amount of anti evolutionism thrown in. Press coverage was minimal or non existent.

Sir Toejam:

"the moment you start thinking that maybe the fundies aren't so bad, along comes a group like the Westboro Baptists, with Fred Phelps.

tell me those people aren't terrorists."

They are vile and loathsome, but they do not commit any violence that I am aware of. In the US, they are exercising their constitutional right of freedom of speech. I would not classify them as terrorist's.

On the other hand, there are plenty of fundie terrorists who love to beat up gays and blow up abortion clinics and kill doctors and nurses. Many fundies tacitly approve of this. IMO this makes them as bad as the terrorists.

http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2006/07/
antigay_bigots_endorsing_terro.php
#comment-179931

If it makes you feel better then, just take "the creationists" to mean "this specific group of creationists". I don't mean to paint with a broad brush or imply that creationists in general are doing this sort of thing, which is pretty obvious I think. However, I do think that this incident, assuming that it ends up being genuine, says something about the creationist movement as a whole. Things have begun to reach a breaking point with them --- that particular generalization I feel is well warranted. The only thing surprising about this episode is just how predictable it was. When a movement spends most of its time ginning up huge amounts of resentment and hostility, and in the process cries that the very future of civilization is at stake, it's bound to happen that some of its followers will feel justified in using any means necessary. This is something we've already seen aplenty; it's not like the creationists were a shining beacon of ethical behavior before all this you know.

Robert Crowther, over at the Discovery Institutes "Evolutionary News & Views", just can't believe, or apparently even imagine, that a Christian could be responsible.

Perhaps that is the problem with creationists... lack of imagination.

As I recall, and as the evidence indicates, the gross generalization was what I objected to.

— Davidson

but... you don't have that evidence, Glen.

what evidence DO we have? well, if we consider the creationist blogs and commenters frequenting those blogs, then the evidence is quite skewed towards those representatives in fact commonly posting violent thoughts about "evolutionists". yes, even among the putative "leaders" of the creation/ID movements.

No one here, that I know of, questions the repressed violence, the ressentiment, that causes your average IDist and creationist to long for heaven for themselves, hell for their opponents (you see it on UD all the time). Bad faith, however, does not amount to an excuse to say "the creationists...have past [sic] the threshold...to attacking science in a more direct fashion," where the "example" is the threat to cause violence.

— Davidson

and you have what evidence to counter that, exactly?

— once again, STJ

the fact they haven't come to your house yet to threaten you?

if you wish to counter what they themselves have generated that does allow one to generalize about apparent violent tendencies, you would be hard pressed to do that by looking at the public face they tend to present.

do you have other evidence you wish to share?

Robert Crowther, over at the Discovery Institutes "Evolutionary News & Views", just can't believe, or apparently even imagine, that a Christian could be responsible.

No one here, that I know of, questions the repressed violence, the ressentiment, that causes your average IDist and creationist to long for heaven for themselves, hell for their opponents (you see it on UD all the time).

— Davidson

...and hateful thoughts don't ever lead to hateful actions, right?

Perhaps you have fallen victim to self selection, since you tend to frequent blogs where commenters tend to be more 'violent' in their thoughts?

— PvM

like UD and AIG? perhaps so... where do the majority of creationists consider their interests best represented, Pim?

Robert Crowther, over at the Discovery Institutes "Evolutionary News & Views", just can't believe, or apparently even imagine, that a Christian could be responsible.

Ah - the "No True Scotsman" fallacy, such a useful tool when denying inconvenient facts about your religious brethren. Of course, when the Christian fundamentalist hear Muslim moderates say the same thing about their radicals, they reject the argument out of hand.

Indeed. And as bad as the Palestinian situation is, it pales in comparison to the violence literally rained down on the Middle East. Not only do Americans look the other away from the immense violence that their tax dollars have paid for over many decades, they remain blissfully unaware of the ideology that inspires it. Imagine: United Fruit and Banana Republic are now both brand names --- the ultimate cooptation of a concept. And these days, not only do U.S. tax dollars pay for the U.S. military and intelligence operatives to invade countries and overthrow governments in the interests of private corporations, but U.S. tax dollars pay for private corporate military and intelligence operatives to invade countries and overthrow governments in the interests of private corporations.

— Popper's Ghost

Raven and Sir ToeJam -

Unfortunately, you are closer to the truth than others. (Although certainly Glen Davidson is correct that no individual should be prematurely judged.)

The reason why is something I have repeatedly stated.

ID/creationist claims may be weakly associated with "Christianity" (in the sense that few ID/creationists would fail to claim to be "Christian"). They are strongly, almost invariantly associated, however, with harsh, punitive, right wing, authoritarian political fantasies. (And also, although I seldom mention this because it is so depressing, with racism.)

Remember, I'm talking about politically active, UD-posting type creationists here, not people like Jehovah's Witnesses or Orthodox Jewish congregations whose tradtional beliefs might happen to overlap with YEC.

Of course most creationists are not violent, but each one is probably massively more likely to be violent than a random member of the population.

What was that "polite" weasel's name who was here a few weeks ago? Mark Hasuman or something? When I directly confronted him on how he felt about issues like executing people for being homosexual, he refused to answer on the grounds that people would find him "barbaric"!

Think about what it means that Talk Origins was taken down. Talk Origins was a scrupulously fair and collegial site that offered only reasoned responses to their claims. Their response - do anything to silence it.

I would say that the propensity to distort Christianity into a simplistic, cherry-picked set of harsh and arbitrary "rules" that justify authoritarian brutality is, in itself, evidence of some kind of mental circuitry issue. Even if it's just the verbal activity of some ostensibly "educated" and superficially wimpy type.

I have made the depressing prediction elsewhere that, as wingnuts feel themselves to be losing control, they will act out with violence.

Here's the only silver lining. This type of activity will meet with massive public disapproval and a vigorous law enforcement response.

[Funny, they seem to critique YEC (in places at least), but I got to AiG in three clicks on sponsored links. Oops.]

I also started bugging people to explain to me, among other things, exactly why the ASA organization is so collectively confused as to even sponsor the"ASA list". See, the list is essentially a cute trick whereby ASA's name appears to endorse constant attacks on Christians in science who are sympathetic to intelligent design, whether or not they could be classified as theistic evolutionists like Mike Behe. A frequent contributor is Pim Van Meurs of the Darwinist Panda's Thumb, announcing - for example - the good news that Richard Dawkins is not really inciting hateful bigotry. (And Dawkins' attacks on Christianity are all the ID guys' fault anyway, remember? That would be news to Dawkins, of course, who is proud to have been anti-religious long before ID meant anything other than the photo card that guys under 19 have to forge if they hope to drink beer here in Ontario.) So why are the ASA listas even discussing the question with van Meurs? Well, my guess is, the "ASA list" is a sort of Thumb for guys who probably (okay, maybe) go to church.

Well, until I get around to writing a secure feedback mechanism, yeah, the TalkOrigins Archive will have to rely on discussion (1) on the talk.origins newsgroup (2) on Panda's Thumb and (3) on the AntiEvolution.org bulletin board.

It's kind of interesting that absolutely none of PT's resident creationists or IDers have come here to comment on this. Hmm.

and having learned from observation that most scientists are liberals, and most liberals are puling cowards against whom terrorism works like a charm

You will see this attitude continue to grow and spread as long as you continue to retreat from terrorism instead of fighting it. If liberals were not telling our government to run away from al-Qaeda and its equally murderous fellows,

if liberals did not make excuses for violent animal-rights and environmentalist groups, this would not have happened.

Behavior which is rewarded is encouraged.

When you reward terrorism, you shouldn't be surprised when it grows and spreads.

Wolfwalker's bottomline premise seems to be that when rightwingers commit acts of terrorism, it's the fault of liberals. Thus, rightwing terrorism is further proof of how horrible liberals are.

(Sadly, millions of wingnuts would accept this 'logic' without batting an eye.)

Funny how conservatives seem to have abandoned that whole 'personal responsibility' thing.

Wolfwalker's bottomline premise seems to be that when rightwingers commit acts of terrorism, it's the fault of liberals. Thus, rightwing terrorism is further proof of how horrible liberals are.

FL: I notice you yourself didn't state whether or not you were opposed to such violent and anti-democratic tactics. Any comment?,

FL, who exactly has "broad-brushed" all creationists as terrorists?

And where exactly on this thread have such persons done so (a comment number or quote would do just fine).

I've just joined this thread, so--for all I know--you might be right.

I wouldn't bet that way, of course, having some past experience of you and some past experience of creationist argument integrity, but stranger things have happened.

So, show me that you're right. Put up the names and comment numbers.

Are *you* opposed to this tactic of the blatantly unsupported broad-brushing of creationists as "terrorists" by evolutionists?

Which evolutionists, exactly, have done this "broad-brushinhg?" I certainly would oppose it (unless the charges were backed up by evidence), for much the same reason I oppose creationists "broad-brushing" evolutionists as supporters of eugenics and the Holocaust, as Cordova and many others in your camp have done.

On the other hand, I feel compelled to note that creationists come from the same camp, and share much the same values, as those who bomb abortion-clinics, refuse to allow women to control whether they conceive, support the teaching of lies disguised as science, actively silence and censor such people as the US Surgeon General, ignore the most basic principles of the Constitution, detain and torture suspects with no trial or formal charges, make death-threats against people who file establishment-of-religion lawsuits (including the plaintiffs in the Dover trial), equate criticism of the President with treason, openly advocate the creation of a Christian theocracy, call for "retribution" against judges who don't rule their way, and label 60% of their own country a "culture of death." None of that proves terrorist intent, of course, but it does show a longstanding pattern of disregard for the laws of our land and the rights of their fellow Americans -- in other words, fertile ground for undisciplined anti-democratic violence.

This is the most disturbing thread I've read on PT.

So far...

It is wrong to put temptation in the path of any nation, For fear they should succumb and go astray; So when you are requested to pay up or be molested, You will find it better policy to say: -- "We never pay any-one Dane-geld, No matter how trifling the cost; For the end of that game is oppression and shame, And the nation that plays it is lost!"

I was puzzling over your concern about "sponsored links," since this generally means advertising. I think you mean "official links" or some such thing. It only takes two clicks to get from PT to AIG. Click "More links" under "Pseudoscience Websites", then click "Answers in Genesis Ministries." I don't think a site can be judged by its links.

I don't know how AIG was linked to ASA.

Old-earth Creation - Ruin - Reconstruction: Christian Geology Ministry

Anointed Christian Links

Answers In Genesis Ministries International --- "Upholding the authority of the Bible from the very first verse"; a good creation science site with a wide variety of information

Are *you* opposed to this tactic of the blatantly unsupported broad-brushing of creationists as "terrorists" by evolutionists?

Well, "sponsored" would mean "vouching for the suitability" ([snip]thefreedictionary.com/dict.asp?Word=s... ) - I think I have seen that usage elsewhere.

Sponsored links are text-based advertisements that describe an advertiser's Web site and the products and services offered. A hyperlink is included, so that interested consumers may click on the advertisement and go to the advertised site.

(And yes, when you talk about pulling out of Iraq, you're talking about giving the terrorists what they want. If you don't like that, don't argue with me. Argue with them --- they're the ones who say so.)

ID/creationist claims may be weakly associated with "Christianity" (in the sense that few ID/creationists would fail to claim to be "Christian"). They are strongly, almost invariantly associated, however, with harsh, punitive, right wing, authoritarian political fantasies. (And also, although I seldom mention this because it is so depressing, with racism.) Remember, I'm talking about politically active, UD-posting type creationists here, not people like Jehovah's Witnesses or Orthodox Jewish congregations whose tradtional beliefs might happen to overlap with YEC. Of course most creationists are not violent, but each one is probably massively more likely to be violent than a random member of the population.

I know that English is a difficult language, and I certainly follow your reasoning. But so that you will know, "sponsored link" doesn't have the meaning that one might suppose from what the free dictionary says the meaning of "sponsored" is, at least not in the first few meanings.

Is there any specific part of what I wrote that you challenge with evidence based arguments?

...each (creationist) is probably massively more likely to be violent than a random member of the population.

Harold, if you had kept your reply civil, I would have responded in the same vein.

Since you didn't, but instead chose to attack me with the one tactic that is guaranteed to never work with me, you get nothing.

The underlying premise of the selection process is simple: when a trait succeeds it's reinforced; when a trait fails, it's eliminated.

Why are any of you at all surprised that this applies to human behavior as well as it does to genetic traits?

Since you didn't, but instead chose to attack me with the one tactic that is guaranteed to never work with me, you get nothing.

I see you're still fully functional, Pops.

:)

and having learned from observation that most scientists are liberals, and most liberals are puling cowards against whom terrorism works like a charm

I see you're still jumping to conclusions on insufficient evidence, Katarina. :-)

Nevertheless, I'm still very much a fan.

it was only a matter of time unfortunatly as the're faith there elimiates the posability of actualy debate on the subject there left with just one option "kill them all and let god sort them out"

happend with the pro-lifers
happend with the israel palestine conflict
happend with the crusades
happend with 9/11
happend with 7/7
happend in northen island
and to many other places to name

and finaly its happend with evolution vs creationism mark my words its only a matter of time before we have people trying to bomb musseums to distroy the fossils and specimins there.

Don't mind FL - he is very good at yammering on with out of context misinterpretations and wild extrapolations, pretty short on thinking things through rationally.

Ignore him.

As one colleague pointed out, that is hardly the way religious believers refer to their own belief system. Rarely do Christian groups refer to their own "religious beliefs" --- it is mainly secularists who refer to beliefs with the modifier "religious."

I humbly bow to our Creationist Overlords. Obviously Earth cannot be older than 6,000 years, Jezus had a dinosaur for a pet and the great flood carved out the Grand Canyon [and before 4,000 + years of erosion got the best of it, it actually spelled out the name of Yahweh in its intricate curves]. Gays are, obviously, the scourge of the earth and should subsequently get rid of them [we learned how to do that in the last century], abortion should be abolished and women and their care givers engaging in the activity should, delightfully ironical, be dying in a fire. Shooting them works too.

Excuse me if I previously believed Evolution to actually be a valid theory of how life developed, I won't do it again. I will also confess to my many sins when I'm in front of God's eternal throne. I hope he's got some time and the people behind me are not in a hurry.

and finaly its happend with evolution vs creationism mark my words its only a matter of time before we have people trying to bomb musseums to distroy the fossils and specimins there.

Harold, if you had kept your reply civil, I would have responded in the same vein. Since you didn't, but instead chose to attack me with the one tactic that is guaranteed to never work with me, you get nothing.

Well, just for fun, let's try this one.

...each (creationist) is probably massively more likely to be violent than a random member of the population.

Each 'n' every one of 'em? Really now? Where is your evidence for this argument, Harold? This broad-brush claim belongs to you, not me. So please let me know: What peer-review science journal did you get this from? What is your evidence to support this claim?

most scientists are liberals and all liberals are puling cowards

if you had kept your reply civil

Today's Denver Post contains a very short piece about an unnamed "religious group" leaving threatening packages at the CU Boulder ecology and evolutionary biology department

Just checking-- "Packages"?

Okay, Harold. Don't want to belabor anything, but I took time to read your link, and it doesn't mention creationism at all, nor proposes anything like your statement "......each (creationist) is probably massively more likely to be violent than a random member of the population."

You were asked for evidence, preferably from a peer-review science journal, to support your claim. You offered a link to something less than that, but I was willing to take a look at it.

But your link don't even match your claim, doesn't even say boo about creationists or creationism itself, and offers no statistically-based anything about creationists.

You've made a generalization about creationists, that you have provided no evidence for, when asked sincerely.

You really need someone to spell it out for you, FL?

Here goes, then: religious extremists (including, of course, Christian Creationists), have all the traits of the Authoritarian Personality discussed at that link, and this in turn is prima facie evidence of a greater inclination towards violence, especially if some kind of authority endorses - in the most extreme cases, even by implication - the use of violent means for "the greater good".

This story and The Panda's Thumb have made Salon magazine. Check out:
http://www.salon.com/tech/htww/2007/07/12/american_taliban/index.html?source=newsletter
(You'll have to watch a commercial to see it.)

Sample:
Meanwhile, in Boulder, Colo., a home-grown jihadi is terrorizing the University of Colorado at Boulder's ecology and evolutionary biology department. The Denver Post reported on Tuesday that "police are investigating a series of threatening messages and documents e-mailed to and slipped under the door of evolutionary biology labs on the Boulder campus." At the Panda's Thumb, a blog devoted to critiquing the "claims of anti evolutionism," excerpts of e-mails sent by the perpetrator to CU-Boulder faculty members display an unrestrained eagerness for escalating the ever popular with Christian fundamentalists creationism-evolution debate into an out-and-out holy war.

One recent e-mail, which may have attracted the attention of the police, reportedly reads as follows:

"Pastor Jerry Gibson spoke at Doug White's New Day Covenant Church in Boulder.

He said that every true Christian should be ready and willing to take up arms to kill the enemies of Christian society.

But I believe it is far more effective to take up a pen to kill the enemies of Truth.

President GW Bush II [sic] is waging a global war on terror. But it seems he has overlooked the terrorists operating in our own backyard!

He likes to say "God Bless America," and our Pledge of Allegiance says "One Nation Under God." And of course our Federal Reserve issued money says "In God We Trust."

But the EBIO [now EEB] Department at CU Boulder denies a Creator God and claims that life evolved from inanimate matter without Divine Direction, Oversight, or Providence.

Many scientists today have denounced Darwinian theories as bogus science. Yet the EBIO department upholds it as the Gospel truth and hides itself in a false cloak of intellectual arrogance. www.scienceagainstevolution.org

Academic freedom does not include the right to lie, obfuscate, and prevaricate. Yet this is exactly what these arrogant atheist professors do in the name of "higher education"!

EBIO professors are terrorists against America and against the true spirit of humanity, which consists of created beings beholden to their Creator!

EBIO Professors are also intellectual and spiritual child abusers of their young and impressionable students.

In addition, the New Testament states clearly that Adam and Eve were our original parents and that Noah's Flood was an historical reality. So the EBIO department not only blasphemes God, who is invisible, but it blasphemes His Only Begotten Son and our Messiah, Jesus Christ, which is more unforgivable given the clear manifestations of His Godliness and Holiness and the confirmation of all He claimed to be through His historic Resurrection from the dead!

For all these reason all God-fearing and Truth-loving persons must say,

"They must go!"

This is sandwiched between two pieces on the Taliban and the Red Mosque in Pakistan.

For an example of twisted religious logic, just look at the Taliban. By their wingnut interpretation of islam they prohibited music, and most art. They destroyed a lot of treasures in the museums of Afghanistan and blew up the large Buddha statues. They were, in fact, in the process of destroying Afghani culture and society. It would have ended like Cambodia as they murdered large segments of the population for one flimsy reason or another.

FL blithered thusly:

You've made a generalization about creationists, that you have provided no evidence for, when asked sincerely.

There's plenty of easily-available evidence to prove that creationists, and many of their political allies and fellow-travellers, exhibit nearly all of the basic traits that lead to anti-democratic, extralegal violence against noncombattants: disregard for the US Constitution and the principles it embodies; disregard for the baic rights of others (rights which they claim for themselves); disregard for majority rule, or any other form of general legal, political or scientific concensus; attacks on reason in support of pseudoscience and lies; overt threats of violence against people who oppose them in court; and routinely blaming "evolution," "Darwinism" or "science" for nearly every evil known to Man -- much as Hitler blamed the Jews.

As predictors of violence, the latter point -- scapegoating -- is a biggie. Once you start blaming general classes of people for horrible crimes they did not commit, you pretty much set the stage for the easy justification of any sort of atrocity, with no restraint or process of justice to slow the pogrom down.

Not all creationists "knowingly" support or commit terrorism. But all of them support an irrational and bigoted mindset that can be -- and routinely is -- used to encourage and justify many forms of anti-democratic violence. (Crowther's lame attempt to pretend creationists had nothing to do with the latest incident merely proves his unwillingness to take an honest stand against it.) You know all this is true, FL, which is why you're avoiding responding to my earlier post.

** religious ideology born of unceasing resentment **

For 2,000 years one hallmark of xianity has been its hatred of natural science and sceptical philosophy. The Stoics and Epicureans of Athens laughed at Paul of Tarsus when he spoke to them. Paul's anti-intellectual (and antisemetic) rejoinder is holy writ:

20-Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21-For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22-Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23-but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles . . . .
1Cor1 20-23 NIV

27-But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28-He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are . . . .
1Cor1:26-28 NIV

In short, Paul and his fellow revenge seekers needed a god sharing their nihilistic values.

Xianity still appeals to those who believe themselves mistreated. To those in whom resentment surges. To those who must blame others. To those who must punish their guilty selves. Xianity is practical nihilism. Directed inward, hatred of self. Directed outward, hatred of others and the world.

This is not some peripheral ideological stance -- it is the dark heart and sick soul of a life-negating world view, tarted up as a religion of “love”.

bipolar2