And Yet ANOTHER Creationist Meltdown

"...the creation of the earth as accepted in WHICH Judeo-Christian tradition?" That tradition's been changing, whether or not Craig and his ilk have noticed. And if you teach creationism, in ANY form, it won't be "accepted" in the Catholic or Lutheran traditions.

Creationism, homophobia, and hypocrisy go together like apple pie and ice cream. Why should we expect otherwise? And I suspect that Craig is only the tip of the iceberg. How many other politicians walk a private path wholly at odds with their public bluster? Many, many I suspect.

What's to discuss? Fundies are simply damaged goods. Duh.

And according to his Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Craig) he's been on the Board of Directors of the National Rifle Association since 1983. Of course, maybe that's all part of the disguise, like marrying a woman with kids so he can say he's got kids (he has no biological children that we know about) (yet).

What's amazing is that the clear language given in the Bill of Rights specifically addressing ideas like this somehow escaped the attention of the representatives who were proposing the "Community Life Amendment". Seems like the Constitution would be a hard thing to miss if you worked in Congress.

Well, see, who other than the Designer would think to make orifices in men which can be used for Craig's purposes? Surely mouths and anuses weren't made simply for alimentary purposes. Craig praises the Designer for his forethought and evident purposes.

Hey, it's as good an argument for design as I've ever seen.

Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7

One can only hope that some day the folks who subscribe to a world view that encourages hypocrisy and self-loathing like that seen in Senator Craig (R., Closet) will see that this is not at all consistent with the teachings of their founders.

"...WHICH Judeo-Christian tradition..." indeed!

On Ash Wednesday of this year, several of us were in a committee hearing (New Mexico) to testify against a creationist bill. Before this bill was heard, another came before the committee which would allow the bible to be used as a history text in schools. Three of the committee members had crosses drawn with ashes on their foreheads from mass that AM. (This is predominantly a Roman Catholic state.) The question of "which version" of the bible came up, and one of the fundamentalist committee memebers moved to make it the KJV. She had no idea how hilariously stupid that motion was with all those Catholics looking at her. No one laughed out loud (bad form, you know?), but there were a few audible snarky snorts that could be heard.

Of course, the bill was tabled. So was the creation bill.

SECTION 2. For the purpose of section 1, the term ‘teaching of the Judeo-Christian ethic’ shall include the Ten Commandments and the creation of the earth as accepted in Judeo-Christian tradition.

the creation of the earth as accepted in Judeo-Christian tradition.

I've been meaning to do a "senator craig creationism" search for days.

Yes, it is one aspect of a sociopolitical cult of authoritarianism, control-seeking, personal torment, and desperate hypocrisy. With overtones of sadism.

You won't see many of them on this thread.

They'll lie about moths all day, but this kind of thing touches too many nerves.

Did anyone see clips of his Meet the Press Interview on the censuring of Bill Clinton back in 1999? I nearly fell off my couch laughing when Leno showed the clip couple nights ago. And it was an undoctored, authentic clip, even though it could easily have been a spoof.

"Clinton is a bad, nuaghty boy," said Craig, in an effeminate voice and a suggestive smile on his face. LOL. You can't make stuff like that up!

It's been interesting listening to the conservatives today. Hannity in particular has been gold tonight. Craig admitted that he was guilty, so Hannity is trying his hardest to make it sound like the Police have a chip on their shoulder or are just bullying him, but at the same time Hannity has to admit that if that is true then Craig is an idiot for confessing. The sad thing is that Hannity will never even consider the larger picture when trying to make sense of something like this.

Since my wife is bi, I've read a few different books with anecdotes about the issues that arise in cases like this (where the guy is going to restrooms...) In almost all the cases that I read, a lot of the pain could have been avoided if people had simply felt free to be who they were, rather than feeling like they had to mold themselves to the expectations of others.

After posting Yet Another Creationist Meltdown last July, I began to mull over testing a little hypothesis, namely that right-wing idealogues caught up in embarrassing political or sexual scandals have a better likelihood of being Creationists.

I don't see the problem. There's nothing in the Judeo-Christian bible that prohibits soliciting anonymous gay sex in a men's room as long as the partners don't have sex lying down. Leviticus clearly states that only "lying with a man as one would lie with a woman" is an "abomination unto the Lord." It doesn't note any particular abominable-ness if one of the partners is sitting down and the other kneeling in front of him.

I mean, if we're going to talk literal interpretation, let's be fully literal about it.

Funny, I was just commenting on all the right-wing, moralist sex scandals on my blog yesterday. My thought was that moralists are plagued by their own personal demons, and their way of dealing with it is to inflict their moralizing on us, but their preaching is aimed, first and foremost at themselves to keep their personal demons a bay. (I also have that 'Meet the Press' video involving Larry Craig in 1999.)
http://tinyfrog.wordpress.com/2007/08/29/moralist-crusaders/

The husband of a college friend dropped $500K of his own money trying to defeat him in 1996. Looks like all it really took was a bathroom stall :)

I'm not trying to act like I have all kinds of power or anything, but you're sitting here lying to a police officer.

— DK The Police Officer

And according to his Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Craig) he’s been on the Board of Directors of the National Rifle Association since 1983. Of course, maybe that’s all part of the disguise, like marrying a woman with kids so he can say he’s got kids (he has no biological children that we know about) (yet).

He also seems unaware that among "Judeo-" traditions, the book of Genesis isn't usually given a literal interpretation.

Hannity has to admit that if that is true then Craig is an idiot for confessing.

Since my wife is bi...

Raven asked:
"Want to bet the next guy the good Xians of Idaho elect will be even crazier?"

Two words: Bill Sali
http://spokesmanreview.com/blogs/boise/archive.asp?postID=5936
AND
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Sali

BTW, I'll be driving through Idaho next week. Should I avoid drinking the water?

It seems that God judges those who seek to force everyone else to conform to their own values, by revealing their hypocrisy inherent within us all.

I have a perhaps not groundbreaking theory that creationists are, shall we say, extremely morally flexible. It's just that the (formerly) closeted fundy gays always seem to be loud voices in condemning homosexuality. Creationists are always willing to use deception to try to convince people of the validity of their claims, and when faced with the facts attempt to redefine things rather than accepting their deserved guilt.

It seems to me that biblical literalism somehow breeds an ability to accept any arbitrary morality, along with the ability to change it to suit the situation. Followers of the "prince of peace" can justify murder, the meek might be due to inherit the Earth but the leaders of the church luxuriate in the wealth they demand from their parishioners, and people who are supposed to be worshiping a man who washed the feet of prostitutes as a sign of humility loudly trumpet their bigoted beliefs on national television.

I dunno, if they're willing to accept all those flagrant contradictions what other barriers are left to keep them from doing anything?

I find this rush to judgement here, that Craig is guilty of some serious lapse, before all the facts are in and while he loudly proclaims that he "did nothing wrong" to be very unseemly, unscientific and unfair.

Posted by Carol Clouser on August 31, 2007 2:39 AM (e) I find this rush to judgment here, that Craig is guilty of some serious lapse, before all the facts are in and while he loudly proclaims that he “did nothing wrong” to be very unseemly, unscientific and unfair.

Huh!!!! What judeo christian tradition? Most Xian sects are OK with evolution and reality.

— raven

I find this rush to judgement here, that Craig is guilty of some serious lapse, before all the facts are in and while he loudly proclaims that he “did nothing wrong” to be very unseemly, unscientific and unfair.

Carol Clouser--

It would help convince everyone that you are concerned with justice for the accused, not snarky partisan politics, if you would post here the e-mails you sent to Mitt Romney and the remaining Republican senators, protesting their "rush to judgement." They had Craig tried, convicted, and sent beyond the pale while the Democrats were still trying to get the facts straight.

“…the creation of the earth as accepted in WHICH Judeo-Christian tradition?” That tradition’s been changing, whether or not Craig and his ilk have noticed. And if you teach creationism, in ANY form, it won’t be “accepted” in the Catholic or Lutheran traditions.

— Raging Bee

My thought was that moralists are plagued by their own personal demons, and their way of dealing with it is to inflict their moralizing on us, but their preaching is aimed, first and foremost at themselves to keep their personal demons a bay.

I have a perhaps not groundbreaking theory that creationists are, shall we say, extremely morally flexible. It’s just that the (formerly) closeted fundy gays always seem to be loud voices in condemning homosexuality. Creationists are always willing to use deception to try to convince people of the validity of their claims, and when faced with the facts attempt to redefine things rather than accepting their deserved guilt.

I find this rush to judgement here, that Craig is guilty of some serious lapse, before all the facts are in and while he loudly proclaims that he “did nothing wrong” to be very unseemly, unscientific and unfair.

So if Barney Franks room “mate” ran a prostitution ring out of their apartment, was that because they were evolutionists.

I find this rush to judgement here, that Craig is guilty of some serious lapse, before all the facts are in and while he loudly proclaims that he “did nothing wrong” to be very unseemly, unscientific and unfair.

I find this rush to judgement here, that Craig is guilty of some serious lapse, before all the facts are in and while he loudly proclaims that he “did nothing wrong” to be very unseemly, unscientific and unfair.

The man pled guilty, and his plea contained a clause saying that he would not claim to be innocent of crime to which he was copping a plea.

Of course, the fact that he proclaims he "did nothing wrong" might just mean that he doesn't think there's anything wrong with soliciting public sex in airport bathrooms.

GOP Officials Say Craig May Resign By DAVID ESPO and MATTHEW DALY,AP WASHINGTON (Aug. 31) - Idaho Sen. Larry Craig is considering resigning, Republican officials said Friday, after days of public and private pressure stemming from his arrest in June in a police undercover operation at an airport men's room.

What’s amazing is that the clear language given in the Bill of Rights specifically addressing ideas like this somehow escaped the attention of the representatives who were proposing the “Community Life Amendment”. Seems like the Constitution would be a hard thing to miss if you worked in Congress.

— Saber

Barney Frank had a better way of dealing with the issue. Honesty. “Hey I’m gay, so what. Go pick on someone else.”

Not to defend Senator Craig or hypocrisy, but it is somewhat understandable that one might not wish to change parties and move to Massachusetts.

Hmm. Of course we would expect many creationists to be less well functioning in other circumstances involving reasoning and also having the bigot mind that underlies the cryptic or anti-social behavior which gives rise to scandals.

But personally I don't see any reason to vent over a specific case. And they are tragic for the participants.

[Note: That is no criticism on the series exposing creationist meltdowns. It is highly amusing and informative, the later making it exposure for a good cause.]

FWIW I would need statistics to start feeling vindicated. Okay, so that is 2 cases... :-P

But I would say that, yes, the type of politically active “conservative movement” creationist we dispute here is, in my personal view, overwhelmingly likely to suffer from problems that make them less honest, less responsible, less empathetic, and more manipulative than the average person.

— harold

I shouldn’t take such joy in this, but Craig’s been an asshole throughout his career in the House and Senate, doing everything in his power to let timber and grazing interests dictate management of our National Forests and BLM land.

I might be snickering about the whole ordeal this hypocrit has been caught up in if it weren't for the fact that there is this peristent, nagging little voice in my head that says "what he did wasn't that big a deal. What Larry Craig does in his private life is his own goddamned business. And why are the cops trying to crack down on this kind of thing? Unless these men are actually performing sexual acts right there in the bathroom stalls, I fail to see where a law has been broken."

That said, the guy is a grade-A fuck-wit and deserves any public rebuke he gets. The irony is absolutely delicious.

As far as that resolution regarding the 10 commandments, were they talking about these 10 commandments?

1. Worship no other god than the Lord: Make no covenant with the inhabitants of other lands to which you go, do not intermarry with them, and destroy their places of worship.
2. Do not cast idols.
3. Observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread for seven days in the month of Abib.
4. Sacrifice firstborn male animals to Yahweh. The firstborn of a donkey may be redeemed; redeem firstborn sons.
5. Do no work or even kindle a fire on the seventh day. Anyone who does so will be put to death.
6. Observe the Feast of First Fruits and the Feast of Ingathering: All males are therefore to appear before the Lord three times each year.
7. Do not mix sacrificial blood with leavened bread.
8. Do not let the fat of offerings remain until the morning.
9. Bring the choicest first fruits of the harvest to the Temple of the Lord.
10. Do not cook a kid in its mother's milk.

This is known as the "ritual decalogue" and is the only 10 commandments in the Bible that were actually called "commandments" by God. These were the ones written by "the finger of God" on those stone tablets.

Some how I don't think this is what they had in mind.

Well, I think you're right, just for different reasons than you might suppose.

But I would say that, yes, the type of politically active “conservative movement” creationist we dispute here is, in my personal view, overwhelmingly likely to suffer from problems that make them less honest, less responsible, less empathetic, and more manipulative than the average person.

You’re basing this on, what, as sample size of 3? I don’t like creationists any more than you do, but making such absurd extrapolations based on such limited data strikes me as little better than the sort of analysis that typically comes out of the Disco Institute, AIG, and the like.

I've just heard on the news this evening that he's resigned (yep, it's even made the headlines of BBC Radio Ulster, U105, Belfast Citybeat etc.)

The whole thing reminds me of a certain skit by the "Little Britain" team.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/littlebritain/

Did anyone see clips of his Meet the Press Interview on the censuring of Bill Clinton back in 1999? I nearly fell off my couch laughing when Leno showed the clip couple nights ago. And it was an undoctored, authentic clip, even though it could easily have been a spoof.

I find this rush to judgement here, that Craig is guilty of some serious lapse, before all the facts are in and while he loudly proclaims that he “did nothing wrong” to be very unseemly, unscientific and unfair.

DK The Police Officer wrote: I’m not trying to act like I have all kinds of power or anything, but you’re sitting here lying to a police officer.

I'm just disappointed in you sir. I'm just really am. I expect this from the guy that we get out of the hood. I mean, people vote for you.... Embarrassing, embarrassing. No wonder why we're going down the tubes.

So if Barney Franks room “mate” ran a prostitution ring out of their apartment, was that because they were evolutionists.

You’re argument is the babyish logic “he did it too, so I can do it”.

You’re argument is the babyish logic “he did it too, so I can do it”.

Carol writes: "I find this rush to judgement here, that Craig is guilty of some serious lapse, before all the facts are in and while he loudly proclaims that he “did nothing wrong” to be very unseemly, unscientific and unfair."

I take it John McCain and several other GOP Senators are also guilty of rush to judgement then?

Of course Vitter who got busted for prostitution doesn't have to resign. His state has a democrat for Gov., while Idaho
has a GOP Gov.

You have to love the situational ethics of repukicans.

Course CLinton has consexual sex with a young woman (at least dems don't have to pay for it) and
the GOP screams impeachment. Is there a bigger collection of jerks on the planet?

Stuart

My quote clearly refers to “the type of politically active “conservative movement” creationist we dispute here”, either directly when they post here (like you), or when their public statements from other forums are addressed. There are dozens to hundreds of examples of such that I can think of off the top of my head. The sample is quite large. For more than three - Behe, Dembski, Well, Johnson, O’Leary, Cordova…

— Harold

I’m glad you don’t like creationists. It’s clear why you distorted my original point. It’s not “creationists”, but the “conservative movement”, that you rush to rescue.

To clarify - I didn’t comment on non-creationist right wingers at all, and won’t, in this forum, if I can help it. Nor did I comment on people who mind their own business but happen to have traditional beliefs that overlap with creationism; I’ve repeatedly stated that I have no problem with them, and that my problem is with efforts to compromise science education, to use pseudoscience or sectarian morality to influence public policy, or to repeatedly mis-educate the ignorant about science through the use of popular denialism books, ID/creationism and otherwise.

Having said all that, it’s a trivial observation that politi>cal creationism has attached itself to the polical right and the Republican party - virtually “creationism in schools” bills have been introduced by Republicans (see Craig as an example), all creationist school boards to date have been Republican, Republican but not Democrat presidential candidates were asked about “evolution” (and three denied it), etc.

I’m not a Republican, nor a “conservative” in the current sense. If you are, and you don’t like the fact that creationists and certain other science-deniers have attached themselves to your party, well, it’s up to you to figure out a solution.

Misrepresenting the arguments of others is not a good place to start.

Interesting that Ben Stein is now misrepresenting the facts in order to defend Craig and call shame on the people involved in calling attention to his behavior. On CBS Sunday morning. Apparently Stein is increasing his notariety in advance of his dishonest movie. At least he's consistant.

Interesting that Ben Stein is now misrepresenting the facts in order to defend Craig and call shame on the people involved in calling attention to his behavior.

Since this blog is still open and the one I wrote on previously appears to now be closed to new comments, I hope Dave Thomas will allow me to announce that some of the comments from the blog "Yet Another Creationist Meltdown" July 26, 2007 have been posted to a blog that I began at myfoxla (fox being channel 11): http://community.myfoxla.com/blogs/Brendatucker You are certainly invited to review what is written there and make any comments you might wish to make. Thanks to the members here for their assistance.