Council of Europe accepts resolution opposing the teaching of creationism as a scientific discipline

you just don't recognize the impact your vastly unsubstantiated claims (for a vast understatement) has on the inexplicable products of some (lets face it) UNKNOWN PROCESSES producing "conscious beings". You prefer you "philosophical preferences" in the NAME OF "SCIENCE" in order to DICTATE your preferences.
This is CRIMINAL. AND YOU UNDOUBTABLY WILL HAVE TO PROVIDE RECONCILIATIONS FOR IT AT SOME POINT!

Let me see how many creationist responses I can predict...

1) "The Council of Europe is turning into the Antichrist, just like Hal Lindsey and the 'Omen' movies predicted!"

2) "Internationalist jackbooted thugs of the New World Order are subverting national sovereignty and censoring Christian belief to further their atheist agenda!"

3) "ID and Creationism are not the same!"

4) "ID does NOT deny evolution, it just denies Darwinian evolution!"

5) "They're making evolution a state religion!"

6) "If science is right and ID is wrong, why do they have to use state power to prop up evolution?"

7) "It's just a theory!"

8) "We're being persecuted!!!"

Oh, screw it, this is too easy...

I approve.

Unfortunately, I find myself wondering how long it will last once the islamist whackos start including evolution in their standard spiel...

lean: you just don't recognize the impact your vastly unsubstantiated claims (for a vast understatement) has on the inexplicable products of some (lets face it) UNKNOWN PROCESSES producing "conscious beings". You prefer you "philosophical preferences" in the NAME OF "SCIENCE" in order to DICTATE your preferences. This is CRIMINAL. AND YOU UNDOUBTABLY WILL HAVE TO PROVIDE RECONCILIATIONS FOR IT AT SOME POINT!

lean sez... you just don’t recognize the impact your vastly unsubstantiated claims (for a vast understatement) has on the inexplicable products of some (lets face it) UNKNOWN PROCESSES producing “conscious beings”. You prefer you “philosophical preferences” in the NAME OF “SCIENCE” in order to DICTATE your preferences. This is CRIMINAL. AND YOU UNDOUBTABLY WILL HAVE TO PROVIDE RECONCILIATIONS FOR IT AT SOME POINT!

Next time, Neal, try posting as "Lane", or maybe "Lena"; get in touch with your feminine side.

Neal spelled his name wrong. He mixed up the letters. Now we will never be able to figure out that he broke the rules yet again and deserves to be banned once and for all. If only we had a design detector like the great Dembski.

The Council of Europe is more concerned in defending darwinism than defending its own survival

http://kleinverzet.blogspot.com/2006/02/fjordman-files.html

The Council of Europe is more concerned in defending darwinism than defending its own survival

— Mats

mats - did OJ do it?

PvM:

lean: you just don't recognize the impact your vastly unsubstantiated claims (for a vast understatement) has on the inexplicable products of some (lets face it) UNKNOWN PROCESSES producing "conscious beings". You prefer you "philosophical preferences" in the NAME OF "SCIENCE" in order to DICTATE your preferences. This is CRIMINAL. AND YOU UNDOUBTABLY WILL HAVE TO PROVIDE RECONCILIATIONS FOR IT AT SOME POINT!

Good thing that I believe that God has a sense of humor and forgives those who shout

lean: your USE of CAPSLOCK is astounDING.

...48 votes to 25...

Uh-oh - the Council of Europe couldn't even muster a 2/3 majority against creationism? Is this really grounds for celebration?

So tell us, Mats, how the teaching of phony science helps Europe protect its freedom and culture against Islamofascist or other incursions?

You really don't think much, do you?

Mats: The Council of Europe is more concerned in defending darwinism than defending its own survival http://kleinverzet.blogspot.com/2006/02/fjordman-files.html

Mats being funny: The Council of Europe is more concerned in defending darwinism than defending its own survival.

So tell us, Mats, how the teaching of phony science helps Europe protect its freedom and culture against Islamofascist or other incursions? You really don’t think much, do you?

Here's an example of the international fundamentalist threat to science: the recently-published "Atlas of Creation."
Published in Istanbul by a company called Global Publishing, it purports to show the fallacy of the fossil record with full-color photos and quotes from the Qur'an; in a note to the reader, it says that the theory of evolution "constitutes the basis of all anti-spiritual philosophies."

What is the Council of Europe and what statutory authority does it have? Does this resolution bind anybody to do anything, or is it simply an expression of sentiment?

Of course, the council is concerned about the poor science involved in creationism and ID as well as the larger societal impact of these movements.

I predict that Truthiness in science will complain about how the council of Europe is squashing legitimate scientific opposition to evolution, and that this is a horrible thing to do which will have a negative impact upon freedom of speech.

the Council of Europe couldn’t even muster a 2/3 majority

What is the Council of Europe and what statutory authority does it have? Does this resolution bind anybody to do anything, or is it simply an expression of sentiment?

— Richard Bennett

What is the Council of Europe and what statutory authority does it have?

Founded in 1949, the Council of Europe seeks to develop throughout Europe common and democratic principles based on the European Convention on Human Rights and other reference texts on the protection of individuals.

The Council of Europe is the oldest organisation working for European integration. Founded in 1949, it predates the European Union. The Council of Europe is not to be confused with the Council of the European Union or the European Council.

Cooperation between the European Union and the Council of Europe has recently been reinforced, notably on culture and education as well as on the international enforcement of justice and Human Rights. The European Union is expected to accede to the European Convention on Human Rights (the Convention). At their Warsaw Summit in 2005, the Heads of State and Government of all Council of Europe member states reiterated their desire for the EU to accede without delay to ensure consistent human rights protection across Europe. There are also concerns about consistency in case law - the European Court of Justice (the EU's court in Luxembourg) is treating the Convention as part of the legal system of all EU member states in order to prevent conflict between its judgements and those of the European Court of Human Rights (the court in Strasbourg interpreting the Convention). ... It is further proposed that the EU join as a member of the Council of Europe once it has attained its legal personality in the Reform Treaty, possibly in 2010. [Bold added.]

Richard Bennett:

Oh, and I forgot to stress that the post described a parliamentarian organization, which clarifies the democratic process.

In other words, Torbjörn, the Council of Europe is a consultative committee that makes recommendations to the EU that lack force of law. It was simply an expression of sentiment, not a binding policy.

That's better than nothing, but not by much.

Mats: PvM

Of course, the council is concerned about the poor science involved in creationism and ID as well as the larger societal impact of these movements.

If the purpose of this decision is to prevent the "bad impact" on society, then euro-darwinists would aim their guns elsewhere, since they are allowing in their soils people who have a clear anti-european mentality. No, the purpose of this impact is not to protect the society. It has other goals, obviously.

Please, you in the (philosophical only)know, who have inherited the top of the pop-culturally sanctioned official position of "we have the answers!!!!!!!" regarding "existence" and "living systems" (After all if there weren't the anti-intellectual forces having irrational influence over the majority of people who haven't had either the opportunity, intellectual abilities, or desire to understand the issues, and see the vast deficits that are a part of the macro-evolutionary philosophy) have to at some point be justly honest about your positions!!!!! You claim to have adequate scientific demonstrable support for the vast amount of claims that are required to (in any kind of reasonable forum) support your assertions!!!!!!! Please, for the sake of the world at large, WAKE UP, and see what kind of pestilent influence your BELOVED PERSONAL PHILOSOPHICAL PREFERENCES (YOU KNOW WHY) HAS on those that "HAVEN'T A CLUE" OTHER THAN BEING INSTRUCTED BY YOU!!!!!!!!!

Torbjörn Larsson, OM: Neal, Mats, back off, this is a democratic process. There isn't any connections to what scientists specifically claim, nor is EU threatened by Mats multicultural bigotry. EU builds on a democratic multiculture.

"Lean" - This is slightly off-topic, but here's a tip you might find useful: your toenail clippings should be thrown in the garbage, not eaten. You're welcome.

Once again Neal gets everything backwards, even his name.

Neal, why not try to present an argument? Just surprise us.

I’ve come to the conclusion that Mats’ claim of not being “anti-science” is a bald-faced lie.

Richard Bennett:

I marked in bold the part that showed that it has direct influence on european legislation today. And these conventions are converted into binding treatises. 202 at latest count.

That was your initial question.

In this particular case, the convention doesn't amount to more than showing what the majority of EU's politicians work for. That was already clearly stated in the resolution.

A bit slow, eh?

Neal, Mats, back off, this is a democratic process. There isn’t any connections to what scientists specifically claim, nor is EU threatened by Mats multicultural bigotry. EU builds on a democratic multiculture.

Swedish girls Jenny and Linda were on their way to a party on New Year's Eve when they were assaulted, raped and beaten half to death by four Somali immigrants. Sweden's largest newspaper has presented the perpetrators as "two men from Sweden, one from Finland and one from Somalia", a testimony as to how bad the informal censorship is in stories related to immigration in Sweden. Similar incidents are reported with shocking frequency, to the point where some observers fear that law and order is completely breaking down in the country.

Mats = racist.

I still want to place A LOT of the responsibility squarely at the altar of Feminism. European women have systematically weakened any traditional sense of masculinity in their own sons for decades, and are now reaping the effects of this. It is also the women who are most positive to immigration and multiculturalism, thus facilitating the Islamic invasion of Europe. Western women are undermining their own freedom and security, as well as that of their daughters. I'm not impressed with women who spend thousands of years to achieve the kind of freedoms they now enjoy, and then flush it down the toilet the first chance they get. I will be happy to share some of the blame with naive and clueless European women who demonize "xenophobic" men who want to limit Muslim immigration. Are women simply more naive then men?

While this is going on, the CE is worried that people don’t have faith in Darwin’s religion.

And, yes, Christians usually are more nationalistic than atheists. If it hadn't been for the Christian backbone prevailing in Europe for centuries, perhaps the Islamo-nazis would have conquered Europe a 1000 yeasr ago, and at the time of the Turks (The Gates of Viena). Obvously, todays' multiculturalists forget that.

And, yes, Christians usually are more nationalistic than atheists. If it hadn’t been for the Christian backbone prevailing in Europe for centuries,

And, yes, Christians usually are more nationalistic than atheists. If it hadn'€™t been for the Christian backbone prevailing in Europe for centuries, perhaps the Islamo-nazis would have conquered Europe a 1000 yeasr ago, and at the time of the Turks (The Gates of Viena). Obvously, todays'€™ multiculturalists forget that.

Actually lean I do consider what effects I have on my students everyday. I know what effects these "philosophical issues" have. I promote universal virtues like temperance. For example learning to write clearly and without the capslock key on would be an example of virtue. Another example would be a persistent belief in the power of reason to lead to truth. I could talk about some of the other things I teach, but I'm quite comfortable with the fact that what I teach helps to build children into clear thinkers with respect for others.

Actually the CE anti-creationist vote is aimed at Moslem fundamentalists as much or more so than Xian ones.

The two groups are very similar in outlook to the point where they borrow each other's propaganda and just change Jehovah to Allah and vice versa. Religious bigotry and extremism is all the same and knows no boundaries.

The only other group in the world advocating creationism are the Moslem fundies. Who are late to the game and mostly just use Xian materials and arguments lifted off of websites and reworked. From what I've heard, a lot of Moslem countries ignore science as being a foreign, western, infidel import and science is sort of a don't ask, don't tell activity. Which means they will always be a step behind the west.

Mats

You have a funny fixation on single behavior and single cases.

Neither of which proves anything, of course. Multiculturalism is what we get in a democratic society, and it brings benefits, probably more than its drawbacks. And statistics over rapes will give us a proper picture.

As I'm not in the mood to find this out for the reason that it is not enough to assess multiculturalism, I will only point out that I can find rape cases in the news where (several) native swedes are accused and even found to be responsible as your reference does not. As it stands, your selection is racist.

Instead I want to point you to peculiarities of your source.

fjordman http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2007/10/council-of-euro-1.html#comment-130523featured on KLEIN VERZET with links to www.brusselsjournal.com. That site claims to be liberal, yet it features anti-cultural and racist articles.

Also, in your "gem", we can note a reference to "informal censorship". It is impossible to see what that specifically refers to, but I suspect it is the non-disclosure of names.

But it is an honorable and lauded tradition in swedish press to wait until sentencing before doing that. (Since, you know, an accused is innocent until proven guilty, and disclosure cause irreparable harm.)

In short, your source is bigoted and uses sources that spits on the ideals they claim to have.

The rest of your comment is unsupported opinion and so worthless.

Mats

You have a funny fixation on single behavior and single cases.

Neither of which proves anything, of course. Multiculturalism is what we get in a democratic society, and it brings benefits, probably more than its drawbacks. And statistics over rapes will give us a proper picture.

As I'm not in the mood to find this out for the reason that it is not enough to assess multiculturalism, I will only point out that I can find rape cases in the news where (several) native swedes are accused and even found to be responsible as your reference does not. As it stands, your selection is racist.

Instead I want to point you to peculiarities of your source.

fjordman featured on KLEIN VERZET with links to www.brusselsjournal.com. That site claims to be liberal, yet it features anti-cultural and racist articles.

Also, in your "gem", we can note a reference to "informal censorship". It is impossible to see what that specifically refers to, but I suspect it is the non-disclosure of names. But it is an honorable and lauded tradition in swedish press to wait until sentencing before doing that. (Since, you know, an accused is innocent until proven guilty, and disclosure cause irreparable harm.)

In short, your source is bigoted and uses sources that spits on the ideals they claim to have.

The rest of your comment is unsupported opinion and so worthless.

"And statistics over rapes will give us a proper picture." Over rapes.

Btw, I forgot to ask you all earlier - isn't there a policy against multi-handles? Neal/lean may be excluded on formal reasons in that case. (And I think he would benefit from being barred from some unhealthy behavior.)

raven, the irony of putting your observation on CoE's motivations against Mats ideas is striking. Really, why does he complain? Oh, wait, he is not only racist, he is also creationist...

lean: Please, you in the (philosophical only)know, who have inherited the top of the pop-culturally sanctioned official position of "we have the answers!!!!!!!" regarding "existence" and "living systems" (After all if there weren't the anti-intellectual forces having irrational influence over the majority of people who haven't had either the opportunity, intellectual abilities, or desire to understand the issues, and see the vast deficits that are a part of the macro-evolutionary philosophy) have to at some point be justly honest about your positions!!!!! You claim to have adequate scientific demonstrable support for the vast amount of claims that are required to (in any kind of reasonable forum) support your assertions!!!!!!! Please, for the sake of the world at large, WAKE UP, and see what kind of pestilent influence your BELOVED PERSONAL PHILOSOPHICAL PREFERENCES (YOU KNOW WHY) HAS on those that "HAVEN'T A CLUE" OTHER THAN BEING INSTRUCTED BY YOU!!!!!!!!!

Mats if your goal is to make Christians look like fools then you have succeeded.
Congratulations.

Perhaps Mats would like to explain in detail how studying prehistoric organisms inspires people in multicultural democratic societies to become rapists, then?

Another thought. Swedes in general doesn't place their nationality in symbols like flags or citizenship. Usually our nature and our freedoms are what people associate with. [Which btw is a problem now when europeans standards of restricted disclosure of governmental processes are pressed upon us in place of full disclosure (excepting some foreign relations and intelligence of course).]

This has some peculiar effects. As citizenship isn't required by all moving here and isn't considered as special, ancestry has unfortunately been made a consideration in its place.

The papers unthinkingly reflect this, so it is quite possible that all of the people in Mats quote were swedes by citizenship, by upbringing or by birth.

Gosh, reading Mats, I can't imagine why anyone would think that opposition to evolutionary science is part of a larger right-wing culture war, not a matter of scientific disagreement.

I also want to point out that he forgets to give the medieval Christian powers credit for protecting Europe from Jews, in addition to Muslims. Just imagine if they'd been let free to take over finance and culture they way they have in our more multicultural recent history! Oh, and Christians protected us from witches, too. And bathing.

Oh, and Christians protected us from witches, too. And bathing.

Re "Oh, and Christians protected us from [...] bathing."

They helped keep people out of hot water?

Henry

just change Jehovah to Allah

Gosh, reading Mats, I can't imagine why anyone would think that opposition to evolutionary science is part of a larger right-wing culture war, not a matter of scientific disagreement.

If the purpose of this decision is to prevent the "bad impact" on society, then euro-darwinists would aim their guns elsewhere, since they are allowing in their soils people who have a clear anti-european mentality.

The verbatim debate is in:
http://assembly.coe.int/Main.asp?link=/Documents/Records/2007/E/0710041500E.htm
at point 6. It doesn't always read very informed, but people try.

Note the mention of the email campaign:

Mr EÖRSI (Hungary). – Mr President, .......
Like me, I am sure that they were bombarded by a huge number of e-mails whose senders expressed opposition to the report and tried to pretend that creationism is scientifically equal to evolution. We have to say clearly that is not true.

Baroness HOOPER (United Kingdom). – Like others, I have received numerous representations on the report and requests to vote against it on the grounds that it threatens freedom of speech.

The document is:
http://assembly.coe.int/main.asp?Link=/documents/adoptedtext/ta07/eres1580.htm

Interesting article by PvM about the Council of Europe. I never heard of this council before, and thought the EU stuff was something kinda new.

Personally, I'm glad the Council of Europe has the intestinal fortitude and intelligence to stand up and do what's right. Binding, or no, it helps lead countries in the right direction.

It seems that all the 3 major religions have fundamentalist factions that are driven to make others believe as they do. Europe has done the best thing possible in fending off this incursion into the Scientific community by Any faction.

Question for us might be: Why is the U.S. pulled in the opposite direction. Why are so many of our politicians christian fundamentalists or just feel pressured by christian fundamentalism (here I exclude other fundamentalists because I don't think they pressure the U.S. Congress concerning Creationism).

Personally I'm angered and baffled. Christianity was just beginning to create a Good name for itself! Why impose religious beliefs into Science? Darwin's theory of evolution doesn't mention a Big Bang or any other singular event caused by a being competing for attention with a god.

Which reminds me, when did Creationists start calling Evolution a religion? Is the propose here to effect some diminution of standards in Science so that Religion and Science are at the same level in peoples eyes?

Let's learn from Europe! We don't need to go through all the years of turmoil that they did, to learn that religious dogmatism combined with political authoritarianism is not a Good thing.

Intelligent Design (ID) is the religion for passive-aggressive Creationists. Nothing more. The idea is old, but discarded as bogus long ago. The latest incarnation of ID was in response to the Supreme Court's decision to Not let Creationism be taught in Science classes. We should recognize Intelligent Design for what it is, and respond accordingly.

Science dodged the bullet in the Dover Panda Trial, a more politically motivated judge may have been a disaster. What if the trial had been in Texas with Alberto Gonzales as judge? It is politics that has allowed Science to be put in jeopardy, not merely the presence of christian fundamentalists.

Read about Science related educational issues. There's an organization called the National Council for Science Education (NCSE) that is a good source of information. When you feel like you understand an issue, talk to family and friends about these important issues. Don't waste your time picking nits with posers on blogs.

Also, maybe we should get more scientists in politics! If not, at least become involved with your local public school (and private schools). Don't let your State go the way Kansas did.

Opps, my bad. NCSE = National Center for Science Education.

I don´t know what kind of homepage this is, but something here was about me.

I am the "Mats Molén" who is "owner" of a museum, but I am not the "Mats" that is debating and being debated in this forum.

So, something may have been misunderstod, concerning who is who.

But, if you want a comment about the resolution, you can look here for one comment:

http://rilsource.org/wiki/Resolution_1580_Farorna_med_skapelsetro_inom_utbildningen/en

Now I am leaving this debate!

IC

Mats Molén

I’ve been reading through your website. You have some nice posts on here, especially this one - I really enjoyed it…nice post. Consider yourself bookmarked