Ignorance By Design: Florida School Board Resolutions

Posted 24 January 2008 by PvM

Latest Count

Confirmed in support of science (1)

Unknown (46)

On Watch List (8)

Anti Science Resolution Passed (6)

Resolution on future Agenda (5)

Highlands County
Educate a school board
school board contact information

Norris, who is also a Lutheran minister, has stated
that evolution should not be taught as fact and that
students should be able to discuss creationism in class.

Source

Washington County joins the list

Madison County joins the list

Three new additions: Jackson County, Nassau County, and Putnam county. More on this below the fold

Brevard County first to reach green status

Last Updated: Jan 19, 2008
Note: Published date moved forward to 01-20 to keep it 'sticky'
Graphics: HT Nate (click to enlarge graphics of Florida Counties)
Added: Florida County Map and list of Newspapers

Seems that some counties in Florida are setting themselves up for another Dover-like lawsuit. Rumors have it that up to 12 counties in Florida have passed resolutions to ‘teach the controversy’, a well known code word for creationism. It’s time to do some detective work and trace back the inevitable links to creationism. Counties so far What really surprises me is how the proposed standard describes evolution.

Draft Standard 2. Evolution and Diversity A. Evolution is the fundamental concept underlying all of biology and is supported by multiple forms of scientific evidence.
B. Organisms are classified based on their evolutionary history.
C. Natural selection is the primary mechanism leading to evolutionary change.

Seems quite a factual description of evolution and it does not even use the term 'fact'.

1. 11-20-2007 - Taylor - Taylor County and School Board Members and Agenda and minutes Taylor Resolution was passed on November 20, 2007 but the Agenda for Nov 2007 does not mention that this resolution is going to be proposed.

2, 12-17-2007 - Baker- Baker County Resolution and School Board Members and School board agenda and minutes 3. 12-18-2007 -Holmes - Holmes County Resolution and School Board Members 4. 12-20-2007 - Hamilton - Hamilton County Resolution and Hamilton County School Board and Agenda and Procedures for those wishing to address the board 5. 01-17-2007 - Clay - Clay County (not approved yet) Will go before the school board on Jan. 17 and text of resolution. Submitted by Sharon Chapman. 6. 01-15-2007 - St Johns County - St. Johns County which notices that “Mrs. Slough will assist in drafting a resolution for the January 15 School Board meeting”. Feel free to express your concerns to the school board 7. 01-15-2007 - Jackson County 8. 01-24-2008 - Nassau County Agenda

Request adoption of Resolution #1238 asking the State Board of Education to direct the Florida Department of Education to revise the new Sunshine State Standards for Science such that evolution is not presented at the exclusion of other theories of origin of life.

9. Putnam County It is important to attend these meetings and document what is being said and done. Dover ain’t over yet… Let’s provide a full list of counties and their resolutions and board discussions. Time to prepare… Time to express your concerns

Research tools

All I Want ... is a Good Science Education A Florida Citizens for Science "Call to Action" project Those not in favor of good science education, raise your hand. HT: Wesley Elsberry, PZ Myers and Florida Citizens for Science The 'controversy' From All I Want ... is a Good Science Education Florida Citizens for Science

The Florida Department of Education coordinated the revision of the state's science standards for public schools this year. A draft of the standards was available for public review through mid-December. Based on that input, the draft's writers will then make any changes they deem necessary and offer a final product to the state Board of Education Feb. 19. It will then be up to the BoE to make the final approval for the revised standards to replace the old 1996 standards. As soon as the draft standards were released to the public, the fact that evolution is fully integrated into the life sciences caused a stir in the media and public. The 1996 standards don't mention the word evolution, whereas the new draft does so prominently. There is widespread opposition to the teaching of evolution in public schools across the nation, and Florida is not excluded from this fervor. This has led to a determined outcry, as can be seen in newspaper articles, letters to the editor, posts to online forums, and even announcements by some school officials. (Take a moment to browse through our blog for several examples.) Savvy anti-evolutionists know that the state BoE has the final say on whether the draft science standards, with evolution included, will be implemented. We are aware that BoE members are being inundated by anti-evolution messages via phone, mail and e-mail. It's important to counteract this negative influence. We need to make sure the BoE understands the value of teaching evolution, and that other supposed theories, such as intelligent design, have no scientific merit.

State Board of Education Linda Taylor, member of state BoE who mentioned “other theories” in a St. Petersburg Times education blog Dec. 11. (Contact information on our Call to Action addresses page.) Donna Callaway, member of state BoE who does not believe evolution should be taught “to the exclusion of other theories of origin of life,” as stated in the Florida Baptist Witness, Nov. 30. (Contact information on our Call to Action addresses page.) Department of Education Selena “Charlie” Carraway, Florida Dept. of Education, Director of the Office of Instructional Materials. Sent e-mail out opposing evolution, as reported in the St. Petersburg Times, Dec. 8. State Congress Republican House leader Rep. Will Weatherford said “… evolution is one of the theories.” Reported in the Miami Herald, Dec. 9. (Contact information on our Call to Action addresses page.) Senator Stephen Wise attempted to get the state school board to listen to parent activists who are opposed to evolution. Reported in Florida Times Union, Dec. 6. (Contact information on our Call to Action addresses page.) The resolution

Whereas, the Florida Department of Education has drafted and is now proposing new Sunshine State Standards for Science, the [insert county here] School Board opposes the implementation of the new standards as currently presented. Whereas, the new Sunshine State Standards for Science no longer present evolution as theory but as “the fundamental concept underlying all of biology and is supported in multiple forms of scientific evidence,” we are requesting that the State Board of Education direct the Florida Department of Education to revise/edit the new Sunshine State Standards for Science so that evolution is presented as one of several theories as to how the universe was formed. Whereas, the [Insert your County here] School Board recognizes the importance of providing a thorough and comprehensive Science education to all the students in [Insert your County here] and to all students in the state of Florida, it recognizes as even more important the need to present these standards through a fair and balanced approach, an approach that does not unfairly exclude other theories as to the creation of the universe. NOW THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED by the [Insert your county here] School Board of [Insert your county here], Florida, that the Board urges the State Board of Education to direct the Florida Department of Education to revise the new Sunshine State Standards for Science such that evolution is not presented as fact, but as one of several theories.

I can’t wait to see these school boards contribute to the funding of the ACLU and other pro-science groups.

More Research Tools

The argument 'teach the controversy' has the following major vulnerabilities and it may be helpful to emphasize this in your communications. First of all, many who are objecting to the Florida standards are under the impression that there are other theories of creation. As such it is important to point out that Intelligent Design Creationism, which is seen by most as such, neither provides an alternative theory nor presents andy scientifically relevant explanations that further our scientific understanding. Professor Richard Colling, author of the book “Random Designer: Created from Chaos to Connect with Creator” is quoted by Sharon Begley in Tough Assignment: Teaching Evolution To Fundamentalists, Wall Street Journal, December 3, 2004; Page A15

In his new book, “Random Designer,” he writes: “It pains me to suggest that my religious brothers are telling falsehoods” when they say evolutionary theory is “in crisis” and claim that there is widespread skepticism about it among scientists. “Such statements are blatantly untrue,” he argues; “evolution has stood the test of time and considerable scrutiny. [1]” Sharon Begley in Tough Assignment: Teaching Evolution To Fundamentalists, Wall Street Journal, December 3, 2004; Page A15
— Sharon Begley

Background Information

In showing how Intelligent Design Creationism is scientifically vacuous I will quote from a variety of Intelligent Design Creationism proponents who have admitted how Intelligent Design Creationism fails to propose a scientific theory to compete with evolutionary theory. In addition I will quote from several Christian writers who have spoken critically of Intelligent Design Creationism since they perceive it to be vacuous science and theologically risky. While introducing the players, we run across the Discovery Institute's Center for the Renewal of Science and Culture. Many of the ID proponents are fellows or former fellows with the Discovery Institute. The Discovery Institute's goals have been outlined in a leaked memo title "The Wedge Strategy" in which it describes how Intelligent Design Creationism's goal is "To replace materialistic explanations with the theistic understanding that nature and hurnan beings are created by God". During the Dover Kitzmiller trial, Barbara Forrest presented a detailed overview of the history of Intelligent Design Creationism and its links to Creationism. Mentioned Players Bruce Gordon is a Canadian philosopher of science (physics), metaphysician and philosopher of religion and a supporter of Intelligent Design Creationism. After Dembski was removed as Director of the Baylor " Polanyi Center", Gordon became Interim director of the renamed "Baylor Science and Religion Project". Philip Johnson, a retired UC Berkeley Law Professor, is known as the 'father of Intelligent Design Creationism'. As Wikipedia states "Johnson is best known as one of the founders of the intelligent design movement, principal architect of the Wedge Strategy, author of the Santorum Amendment, and one of the ID movement's most prolific authors. Johnson is co-founder and program advisor of the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture (CSC)." Paul Nelson is a well known Young Earth Creationist and proponent of Intelligent Design Creationism. He has a PhD in philosophy from the University of Chicago and is a fellow of the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture. Del Ratzsch is a professor at Calvin College specializing in logic and the philosophy of science and author of various books such as "Nature, Design, and Science" (SUNY Press, 2001). Del Ratzsch described the position in his book as

Nature, Design and Science was a result of trying to work through some of the concepts, issues and arguments. The conclusion reached (or the conclusions wildly leapt to) was that at least in principle, design theories did not inevitably vilate any defensible scientific norms, and could not be just dismissed on any of the usual grounds. And that is a position I still hold. That position is, however, not equivalent to the view that current design proposals have demonstrated scientific fruitfulness, that opponents of design theories are of necessity confused, irrational, blinded by naturalistic upbringings, or anything of the sort.

Del Ratzsch during an online chat at ISCID observed that

I think that one can be honestly convinced that design offers no significant scientific promise and that it represents significant scientific risk. In fact, I believe that there are Christians who believe that, and who originally came to the debate not particularly predisposed to hostility.
— Del Ratzsch

Ryan Nichols is an Assistant Professor at the Philosophy Department of Cal State Fullerton. He is author of SCIENTIFIC CONTENT, TESTABILITY, AND THE VACUITY OF INTELLIGENT DESIGN THEORY published in American Catholic Philosophical Quarterly 77 (2003): 589- 609. And finally William Dembski, Research Professor in Philosophy at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Ft. Worth and a fellow at the Discovery Institute's ’s Center for the Renewal of Science and Culture. William Dembski has attempted to define a scientific method to reliably detect 'design' using mathematical approaches. Some definitions The Wedge Strategy is well explained by Wikipedia: "The wedge strategy is a political and social action plan authored by the Discovery Institute, the hub of the intelligent design movement. The strategy was put forth in a Discovery Institute manifesto known as the Wedge Document, which describes a broad social, political, and academic agenda whose ultimate goal is to "defeat [scientific] materialism" represented by evolution, "reverse the stifling materialist world view and replace it with a science consonant with Christian and theistic convictions" and to "affirm the reality of God." Its goal is to "renew" American culture by shaping public policy to reflect conservative Christian, namely evangelical Protestant, values." Design: The set theoretic complement of the disjunction regularity or chance. Or that which remains once natural processes of regularity (law like) and chance have been eliminated. Complexity: The negative base 2 logarithm of the probability that a particular system can be explained. A measure of our ignorance, confusingly called complexity or information by ID proponents.

Intelligent Design Creationism does not provide any alternative theory

Design theory has had considerable difficulty gaining a hearing in academic contexts, as evidenced most recently by the the Polanyi Center affair at Baylor University. One of the principle reasons for this resistance and controversy is not far to seek: design-theoretic research has been hijacked as part of a larger cultural and political movement. In particular, the theory has been prematurely drawn into discussions of public science education where it has no business making an appearance without broad recognition from the scientific community that it is making a worthwhile contribution to our understanding of the natural world.
— Bruce Gordon

Source: Bruce Gordon Intelligent Design Movement Struggles with Identity Crisis Research News & Opportunities in Science and Theology. January 2001, p. 9

I also don’t think that there is really a theory of intelligent design at the present time to propose as a comparable alternative to the Darwinian theory, which is, whatever errors it might contain, a fully worked out scheme. There is no intelligent design theory that’s comparable. Working out a positive theory is the job of the scientific people that we have affiliated with the movement. Some of them are quite convinced that it’s doable, but that’s for them to prove…No product is ready for competition in the educational world.
— Philip Johnson

Source: Philip Johnson In the matter of Berkeley v. Berkeley by Michelangelo D’Agostino 10, 2006 p31 Berkeley Science Review See also Panda's Thumb posting

Easily the biggest challenge facing the ID community is to develop a full-fledged theory of biological design. We don’t have such a theory right now, and that’s a problem. Without a theory, it’s very hard to know where to direct your research focus. Right now, we’ve got a bag of powerful intuitions, and a handful of notions such as ‘irreducible complexity’ and ‘specified complexity’-but, as yet, no general theory of biological design.
— Paul Nelson

Source: Paul Nelson, The Measure of DesignTouchstone Magazine 7/8 (2004): pp 64 – 65.

Intelligent Design Creationism lacks explanatory power

"I do not wish to play down or denigrate what Dembski has done. There is much of value in the Design Inference. But I think that some aspects of even the limited task Dembski set for himself still remains to be tamed." "That Dembski is not employing the robust, standard, agency-derived conception of design that most of his supporters and many of his critics have assumed seems clear."
— Del Ratzsch

Source: Del Ratzsch in "Nature, Design, and Science:The Status of Design in Natural Science", SUNY Press, 2001.

Before I proceed, however, I note that Dembski makes an important concession to his critics. He refuses to make the second assumption noted above. When the EF (Explanatory Filter) implies that certain systems are intelligently designed, Dembski does not think it follows that there is some intelligent designer or other. He says that, "even though in practice inferring design is the first step in identifying an intelligent agent, taken by itself design does not require that such an agent be posited. The notion of design that emerges from the design inference must not be confused with intelligent agency"
— Ryan Nichols

Source: R. Nichols, Scientific content, testability, and the vacuity of Intelligent Design theory The American Catholic philosophical quarterly , 2003 , vol. 77 , no 4 , pp. 591 - 611 At Darwin or Design Jason Rennie talks to Dr Ryan Nichols.

As for your example, I’m not going to take the bait. You’re asking me to play a game: “Provide as much detail in terms of possible causal mechanisms for your ID position as I do for my Darwinian position.” ID is not a mechanistic theory, and it’s not ID’s task to match your pathetic level of detail in telling mechanistic stories. If ID is correct and an intelligence is responsible and indispensable for certain structures, then it makes no sense to try to ape your method of connecting the dots. True, there may be dots to be connected. But there may also be fundamental discontinuities, and with IC systems that is what ID is discovering.
— William Dembski

Source: William A. Dembski Organisms using GAs vs. Organisms being built by GAs thread at ISCID 18. September 2002 While ID proponents are quick to claim that ID does lead to predictions, logic dictates that these claims are without merrit. In order to make a prediction, one has to know the motives, means and opportunities of the designer, one has to be able to constrain the designer.

A major disanalogy between the ID hypothesis and other scientific hypotheses is that the ID hypothesis fails to be scientifically tractable, at least insofar as the appeal to a trancendent intelligent agent as the designer: that is, an agent that transcends the confines of this universe. (As defined above, an hypothesis is scientifically tractable if and only if through scientific and empirical means we can develop and test models of its internal dynamics, often through applying the scientific results we have obtained in other domains.) Suppose, for instance, one claims that the designer is the monotheist's God. Almost all monotheists would agree that one cannot significantly develop and test models of God's internal dynamics through scientific means, since we cannot use science to significantly probe and test God's psychology. On the other hand, suppose one adopts Michael Behe's proposal (and that of many leading advocates of ID) to leave unspecified the nature of the designer. If we take this approach, then it is difficult to see how the intelligent design hypothesis could even be minimally scientifically tractable, since we would be unable to say much of anything about the internal dynamics of the designer.

and

Moreover, notice that, just as in the big bang theory, no additional scientific work is done if we add to the above hypotheses the claim that God, or some other transcendent intelligence, created or designed life on earth. In the big bang theory, for instance, neither the claim that God created the big bang, nor that it occurred uncaused, gives the hypothesis any significant additional explanatory or predictive power. Theists, for example, might find it philosophically necessary to hypothesize a creator to account for the big bang, but it is best not to consider such an hypothesis part of science since it is not scientifically tractable, and adds nothing of interest scientifically. Similarly, the hypothesis that some designer created the basic kinds will not give hypothesis (ii) above--that is, the hypothesis that the basic kinds simply appeared fully formed at various points in earth's history--any additional explanatory or predictive power. And the reason for this is that the designer's psychology is not scientifically tractable: we cannot form models of the designer's internal dynamics. Of course, in analogy to the big bang, one might nonetheless feel philosophically compelled to hypothesize a creator to explain the origination of life.

Source; R Collins "A CRITICAL EVALUATION OF THE INTELLIGENT DESIGN PROGRAM: AN ANALYSIS AND A PROPOSAL" 1998, modified 2006

It is often stated by anti-evolution forces that evolution is not a fact; a rhetorically powerful but ultimately meaningless statement. As should be obvious from the discussions in this paper, evolution is a model. A model, by its very nature, never becomes a “fact” that is it never becomes certain but always remains tentative. Trying to classify evolution or any empirical model as fact or not-fact is a failure of categories and indicates a profound ignorance of the nature of empirical knowledge. Evolution is a model, hence tentative, but a model with extraordinary predictive power. That is high praise, the highest science can give. Similar arguments are also made against other models: science has not proven X . For example X might be global warming due to green-house gases. Of course science has not proven X . Proofs are the domain of mathematics, not the empirical sciences. When people use the X is not a fact or Y is not proven gambits it is a tacit admission they have lost the science argument and they are just trying to downplay the signiﬁcance of that failing.

Source: B.K. Jennings On the Nature of Science

Confirmed in support of science

Unknown

On Watch List

Resolution Passed

Resolution on future Agenda HT: Florida Citizens for Science

E-mail Disclaimer: Under Florida law, e-mail addresses are public records. If you do not want your e-mail address released in response to a public records request, do not send electronic mail to this entity. Instead, contact this office by phone or in writing.

Florida School Districts

Alachua - School Board of Alachua County - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 01-15-2008

Baker - Baker County School District - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 01-07-2008

Supporting Resolution Earl Crews, Richard Griffis, Karen McCollum, James Raulerson, Patricia Weeks, and superintendent Paula T. Barton We contend based on the resolution that evolution is a theory, but is not the fundamental underlying concept," said Superintendent Paula Barton. If the state were to approve the standards as proposed, then some students of this community would have to believe as fact laws that directly disagree with their faith.

Source: Board seeks resolution to revise Sunshine State Standards when it comes to Evolution presented as fact The Standard 2007-12-26

"Of course, the farther south you get, you don't see them necessarily embracing what we are saying," said Baker County Superintendent Paula Barton. "To be honest with you, we are a strong Christian community here, and once people here have gotten a hold of [the resolution], they've certainly given it strong support."

Source: Northeast Florida balks at evolution By Matt Soergel, The Times-Union 01-17-2008

Bay - Bay District Schools - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 01-09-2008

Bradford - School Board of Bradford County - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 01-14-2008

Brevard - Brevard Public Schools - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 12-11-2007

Superintendent Richard DiPatri said the change wouldn’t make a difference in Brevard Public Schools, where evolution already is taught and the curriculum is aligned with national science education standards. ... Ginger Davis, a science resource teacher for the Brevard district, said students participate in labs where theories of evolution can be proven. "Evolutions is much more than just that one little piece of Darwin," she said. "It is a fundamental scientific concept that you can observe in a lab, but people tend to want to focus on that little narrow piece." She said that in science, a theory is much like a law. Theories have to stand the test of time, and it's more about observable trends than schools of thought, Davis said.

Source: Florida Today State educators set to vote on evolution by Megan Downs Jan 18, 2008

Broward - Broward County Public Schools - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 01-15-2008

Calhoun - Calhoun County District Schools - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda

Charlotte - Charlotte County Public Schools - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 12-18-2008

Citrus - Citrus County School District - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 01-08-2008

Clay - Clay County School District - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 01-17-2008

School Board Carol Studdard, Chairman
Charles Van Zant, Jr., Vice-Chairman
Carol Vallencourt, Member
Lisa Graham, Member
Wayne Bolla, Member
Clay Owens Superintendent David Campbell, a teacher in Clay County, said he helped develop the standards being argued. The standards should include evolution, he said. "It is the glue that holds biology together," he said. "The new standards are a vast improvement. Evolution is not presented as dogma."

Source: Herald Trinune Jan 04 2008

Despite impassioned opposition from science experts, teachers and some clergy, Clay County School Board members unanimously resolved Tuesday night that evolution should be presented as a theory, and not fact, in the classroom. The board passed a resolution, proposed by Superintendent David Owens, asking the Florida Department of Education to reword its newly proposed state standards, which presents evolution as "the fundamental concept underlying all of biology and is supported in multiple forms of scientific evidence." Baker County approved a similar resolution Dec. 17. "It's not like we're asking for permission to teach creationism or any of those things. What we're saying is let's not be so dogmatic in our approach," said Owens, who said it meets the needs of Clay County. School Board attorney Bruce Bickner said evolution will continue to be taught and the resolution has no bearing on what is taught or what will be taught. It's just semantics, he said.

Board members Carol Vallencourt and Charles Van Zant said they doubt the resolution will sway the Florida Department of Education to change the wording. "We're beating a dead horse deader," Van Zant said.

Though he voted for the resolution, board member Wayne Bolla said he didn't think there is a difference in the word concept and theory.

Source: My Clay Sun by Mary Maraghy, 01-17-2008

Clay County's retiring superintendent, David Owens, said the state is "interfering" in what should be a local matter. Other theories on the origin of life should be presented along with evolution, he said. "I believe in the separation of church and state, but I also believe there is important information available on both sides of [evolution]," he said. "To present it in just one way is wrong."

Source: Florida Times Union Northeast Florida balks at evolution By Matt Soergel 01-17-2008

Collier - The District School Board of Collier County - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 01-17-2008

Columbia - Columbia County Schools - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 01-08-2008

Dade - Miami-Dade County Public Schools - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 01-16-2008

DeSoto - The School District of DeSoto - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 01-08-2008

Dixie - Dixie District Schools - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda

The Dixie County Advocate’s website is painful to navigate. But if you have the patience, you can venture to the Dec. 20 issue and see a column on page 12 written by Dixie County School Superintendent, Dennis Bennett. Many scientists agree that the theory of evolution has so many unanswered unproven questions that it can’t be proven. Many scientists say that Intelligent Design, another concept has merit and warrants discussion because organisms can’t develop unless they have all components for life in place and in order. There is intelligence in the design of all organisms. If you take any part of the design out, the organism does not develop.

Source: Florida Citizens for Science: Dixie County>

And while the Dixie board did not pass a resolution, Bennett said all five members raised concerns at a recent meeting. "We just wanted to get it on the record that we're a Judeo-Christian community, and we believe in academic freedom," Bennett said.

Source: North Florida weighing in against evolution St Petersburg Times, 01-24-2008

Duval - Duval County Public Schools - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 01-07-2008

School Board Martha Barrett
Nancy Broner
Kris Barnes
Brenda A. Priestly Jackson
Betty Burney
Vicki Drake
Tommy Hazouri
"It hasn't come up with us yet because we've been focused on other things," she said. The board, however, will be studying the issue. "We don't want to make any rash decisions," Burney said.

Source: Florida Times Union Northeast Florida balks at evolution By Matt Soergel 01-17-2008

Ms. Wilhelmina Walton representing the Biology Department at the University of North Florida and the First Coast Freethought Society are cosponsoring a four speaker, Science panel program at the University Center Banquet Room, UNF on 11/13/06, 7:00 p.m. The title of the program is "Science Under Seige - the Attack on Evolution". You were previously notified by mail. I'm a student of science, especially, biology. Florida received a grade of "F" in science regarding evolution. This grade misrepresents science. Young people have only one chance to get an education. We must teach an authentic curriculum in order to enter the workforce as educated individuals. We urge the Board to respond to this program and take part on November 13. Please put a stop to the interference on what is going on. Ms. Walton distributed flyers.

DUVAL COUNTY REGULAR BOARD MEETING MINUTES Thursday, November 09, 2006

Escambia - Escambia County School District - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 12-18-2007

Flagler - Flagler County Public Schools - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 01-08-2008

Franklin - Franklin County Schools - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda

Gadsden - Gadsden County Public Schools - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda

Gilchrist - Gilchrist County Schools - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes -Latest Agenda

Gulf - Gulf County School District - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda

Hamilton - Hamilton County School District - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 12-17-2007

Hardee - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 01-08-2008

Hendry - Hendry County Schools - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda

Hernando - Hernando County School Board - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 01-15-2008

Highlands - Highlands County Schools - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 12-11-2007

Hillsborough - School District of Hillsborough County - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 01-15-2008

School Board Jennifer Faliero - More Info
Carol Kurdell
Doretha W. Edgecomb
April Griffin
Jack R. Lamb
Candy Olson
Susan L. Valdes

Hillsborough County: school board member Jennifer Faliero says that students shouldn’t be taught evolution only. Reported in the St. Petersburg Times, Dec. 6. (Contact information on Faliero here.)

Holmes - Holmes District School Board - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 01-08-2008

Supporting the resolution: Rickey D. Callahan, Gary Scott, Jason Motley, Anthony Register, Vernon Lewis, and superintendent Steve Griffin.

Indian River - School District of Indian River County - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 01-15-2008

Jackson - Jackson County School Board - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 01-15-2007

School Board Terry E. Nichols
Kenneth Griffin
Betty B. Duffee
Chris Johnson
Charlotte Gardner
CONTRACTS/RESOLUTIONS/AGREEMENTS E. Approval of Resolution Regarding The Proposed New Science Sunshine State Standards

Lafayette - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda

Lake - Lake County Schools - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 12-10-2007

Lee - The School District of Lee County - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 01-08-2008

Leon - Leon County Schools - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 12-11-2007

Levy - School Board of Levy County - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 01-08-2008

Liberty - Liberty County School Board - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda

Madison - Madison County Schools - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda

"I'm a Christian. And I believe I was created by God, and that I didn't come from an amoeba or a monkey," said Ken Hall, a School Board member in Madison County, east of Tallahassee.

Source: North Florida weighing in against evolution St Petersburg Times, 01-24-2008

Hall, the Madison board member, said his wife is threatening to do just that with their daughter, but he's not going to let that happen. It'll be his daughter's duty to learn the material, and "my duty to tell her I don't necessarily believe that," he said. "I'm not buying (evolution)," Hall continued. "But I'm not boycotting it either."

Source: North Florida weighing in against evolution St Petersburg Times, 01-24-2008

Manatee - School District of Manatee County - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 01-14-2008

Marion - Marion County Public Schools - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 01-08-2008

Martin - Martin County School District - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes- Latest Agenda

School Board Dr. David Anderson term expires Nov. 2008
Dr. Sara A. Wilcox
Lorie Shekailo
Sue Hershey
Laurie Gaylord (Chair)
Nancy Kline (Vice-Chair)

Martin County School Board member David Anderson said he opposes teaching evolution and said it should be referenced only as a "theory that some people believe in." "I'm a Christian and I believe in the Creation. I'm the son of a minister," said Anderson, whose district includes Palm City and Indiantown. "I am in no way endorsing the teaching of evolution." (Source

Monroe - Monroe County Public Schools - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 01-14-2008

Nassau - Nassau County School District - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 01-10-2008

School Board Janet Adkins
Gail Cook, Vice-Chairman
Muriel Creamer, Chairman
Jim Adams
Kathy Burns
Dr. John L. Ruis Nassau County Superintendent John Ruis said he is a strong believer in biblical creationism. The theory of evolution has many “holes” in it, he said - and presenting it as undisputed fact “is certainly contrary to the beliefs of many people, including myself.”

Source: Florida Times-Union on 01-17-2007

Okaloosa - Okaloosa County School District - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 01-14-2008

School Board Cindy Frakes - More Info
Howard Hill - More Info
Chuck Kelley - More Info
Cathy Thigpen - More info
Rodney Walker - More Info
Teachers Shawnea Tallman, Science curriculum specialist Lisa Rogers, a Niceville High School biology teacher
“It’s been proven that things change over time. It is science and things do change,” said Lisa Rogers, a Niceville High School biology teacher. There are the obvious distinct outlooks on evolution, but most people fall somewhere in the middle, said science curriculum specialist Shawnea Tallman. “I don’t have to believe in evolution to study science, and I don’t have to believe in creationism and God to study science. I’m just studying science,” Tallman said.

Source: Evolution in education Northwest Florida Daily News Dec 12th 2007

Okaloosa County: school board member Cathy Thigpen wants other “forms of creation” to be taught. “If it’s to be mandated, then the state needs to think about all of the other forms of creation that need to be taught in order to give students a balance,”

Source: Reported in the Northwest Florida Daily News, Dec. 12

Okeechobee - The School Board of Okeechobee County - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda

Orange - Orange County Public Schools - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 01-08-2008

Osceola - The School District of Osceola County - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 01-08-2008

Palm Beach - The School District of Palm Beach County - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 01-23-2008

Palm Beach County: one board member was in support of evolution and against intelligent design, while the other six board members refused to comment or return calls. However, Debra Robinson had stated back in 2000 that creationism should be taught with evolution. Reported in the Palm Beach Post Dec. 31. Palm Beach County School Board Chairman Bill Graham said any discussion of intelligent design is best reserved for college philosophy classes, not "side by side" in K-12 science classes. The other six board members either refused to comment or did not return numerous phone calls and e-mails made during the past two weeks. Board member Debra Robinson told The Palm Beach Post in 2000 that schools should teach creationism with evolution.

(Contact information on Robinson here.)

Pasco - Pasco County Schools - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 01-22-2008

Pinellas - Pinellas County Schools - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 01-15-2008

Pinellas County: school board members Jane Gallucci, Carol Cook, Peggy O’Shea and Nancy Bostock all want other theories taught. Reported in the St. Petersburg Times education blog, Dec. 17.

Polk - Polk County Public Schools - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 01-08-2008

Nov. 20. Updated: Due to a flood of pro-science correspondence, the school board backed off of their anti-evolution push, Dec. 22.

Putnam - Putnam County School District - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 01-15-2008

School Board
John D. Milton
Tom Townsend
Lisa Parsons
C. L. Overturf, Jr.
Joann Barber
David Buckles

St. Johns - St. Johns County School District - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 01-15-2008 - (Resolution not on agenda yet)

Parent activists Kim Kendall and Lynda Follenweider from St. Johns County have been very vocal about their opposition to evolution. They attempted to use a state senator to get before the state board of education to talk about the subject. Reported in the Florida Times Union, Dec. 6. Kim Kendall of Jacksonville appeared on WTBN’s Drive Time with Bill Bunkley radio show. Looking for audio and/or transcript

"Anybody with half a brain can see that natural selection takes place," said Beverly Slough, a St. John's board member who is president-elect of the Florida School Boards Association. "But to make great leaps from a fish to a man ... the fossil record doesn't support all that."

Source: North Florida weighing in against evolution St Petersburg Times, 01-24-2008

St. Lucie - St. Lucie County Public Schools - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda

School Board Members Dr. John Carvelli Pro-Intelligent Design Creationism
Ms. Carol A. Hilson Chairman Pro-Intelligent Design Creationism Term expires November, 2008
Troy Ingersoll Unknown
Dr. Judi Miller Refused Comments
Mrs. Kathryn Hensley Pro-Science

St. Lucie County: school board members Carol Hilson and John Carvelli either want intelligent design taught or wouldn’t object to it being taught if the community wanted it. Reported in the Palm Beach Post Dec. 31. Opponents argue that evolution is merely a theory and that other explanations for the origins of life, such as intelligent design, also should be taught out of fairness. Other groups have come to Darwin's defense, arguing that evolution is backed by empirical evidence, something that intelligent design lacks. The current standards, which are used as the basis for school curricula and standardized testing, refer only to biological "changes over time." That's not enough, said Mary Jane Tappen, executive director of the state Office of Mathematics and Science. "If you look in any biology textbook, you'll see a chapter or more on the theory of evolution," Tappen said. "There is a disconnect here. If we really want to be clear, the accurate terminology should be part of our standards." Some exchanges in the statewide debate have been stranger than others. After a majority of school board members in Polk County agreed recently that intelligent design should be incorporated into the science curriculum, the district was inundated with e-mails from members of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Members of the tongue-in-cheek religion credit all of creation to a flying abomination that's more Olive Garden than Garden of Eden. "No one was around to see what was described in Genesis," one e-mail to board members stated. "For all we know, the Flying Spaghetti Monster created everything with his noodly appendages." But Polk County officials aren't the only ones in favor of supplementing evolution with the teaching of intelligent design. At least two of the five members of the St. Lucie County School Board - Chairwoman Carol Hilson and John Carvelli - said they either want intelligent design to be taught or wouldn't object to teaching it if the community requested. The new standards have no provision for creationism or intelligent design. "My children need to be exposed to everything, but taught as a theory," Hilson said. "Science is, well, not an exact science. It's all so subjective. There are a lot of holes in the theory of evolution. "I can't imagine that we would teach science and not teach intelligent design." Board member Kathryn Hensley supported the teaching of evolution, adding that "anything that is faith-based or religious-based just doesn't belong in the classroom." Board member Judi Miller refused to comment and board member Troy Ingersoll, a Baptist minister, could not be reached for comment.

(Contact information on both here.)

Santa Rosa - Santa Rosa County School District - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 01-17-2008

Sarasota - Sarasota County Public Schools - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 01-08-2008

Seminole - Seminole County Public Schools - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 01-22-2008

Sumter - Sumter County School Board - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda

Suwannee - Suwannee County Schools - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 01-22-2008

Taylor - Taylor County School District - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 01-22-2008 (not available yet)

School Board
Mark Southerland
Brenda Carlton
Darrell Whiddon
Danny Lundy
Kenneth Dennis
Oscar M. Howard Superintendent of Schools Superintendent Oscar Howard of Taylor County, a Panhandle district with about 3,300 students, has spoken against teaching just evolution, arguing that evolution has not been proven.

Source: Florida Today State educators set to vote on evolution by Megan Downs Jan 18, 2008

Union - Union County School Board - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 01-22-2008

Volusia - Volusia County Schools - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 01-15-2008

Wakulla - Wakulla County Schools - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 01-22-2008 (not available yet)

Wakulla County: Beth Mims, director of curriculum, and Greg Thomas, school board member, spoke out against evolution at a public hearing concerning the science standards. Reported in the Tallahassee Democrat, Nov. 10. (Contact information on Thomas here. Contact information on Mims here.)

Walton - Walton County School District - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda 01-15-2008

Washington - Washinton County School District - School Board - Board Agenda and Minutes - Latest Agenda

178 Comments

Stacy S. · 12 January 2008

Here are the e mail addresses of the Florida BoE if anyone is interested :

callawaydjc@embarq.com; praulerson@okeechobee.com; bob@colson.com; twfair@bellsouth.net; drdesai@univhc.com; kshanahan@wrsie.com; lmtaylor@gte.net; eric.smith@fldoe.org; lynn.abbott@fldoe.org; todd.clark@fldoe.org

Stacy S. · 12 January 2008

Where did the "Insert County here" document originate? "Anyone, anyone, Bueller? Bueller?" (yes, very bad taste in movie quote - I know)

Stacy S. · 12 January 2008

Could this be the guy? -- -- David Gibbs, of the Christian Law Association, wrote a letter and legal memorandum given to state BoE members advocating against “requiring only one particular belief system in Florida classrooms.” Reported in the Florida Baptist Witness Dec. 19.

Matthew Lowry · 12 January 2008

When confronting these school board members on this point, it might be worth mentioning that their resolutions bear a striking resemblance to the Wedge Strategy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_strategy

If you want to reference an actual copy of the Wedge, try these...

Scan of the Original Wedge Document
http://www.antievolution.org/features/wedge.pdf

Another Copy of the Wedge (easier to read)
http://www.antievolution.org/features/wedge.html

PvM · 12 January 2008

Stacy S. : Where did the "Insert County here" document originate? "Anyone, anyone, Bueller? Bueller?" (yes, very bad taste in movie quote - I know)

I took a look at two documents and removed the specifics. Sorry no smoking gun, but yes, this is the kind of document we should be looking for.

Ichthyic · 12 January 2008

hey, if you want some laughs in the middle of all this, suggest reading former representative, now mayoral candidate Foster's recent letter. http://www.sptimes.com/2008/01/10/images/tb_fosterletter.pdf jaw dropping ignorance.

Throw in the case that there is still no fossil record or evidence to support Darwin, and all you have left is a theory. If evolution were true, then there should be countless numbers of transitional forms (e.g., 100% reptile, 75% reptile - 25% bird, 50% reptile - 50% bird, 25% reptile - 75% bird, 100% bird, and many transitional forms between each of those). Our science labs and museums are loaded with fossils, and yet none support Mr. Darwin.

emphasis mine. damn, that's some funny shit right there. is this the level of education for many floridians? If so, no wonder they are trying to set up some new and better standards!

raven · 12 January 2008

If the various county Voluntary Ignorance Resolutions are similar or identical, it is almost certain that there is an organization or two behind them. Most likely the DI. Otherwise the coincidences would be way too improbable.

These resolutions don't seem to be any more than statements of sentiment rather than actual plans. As such they wouldn't necessarily lead to court cases. A court case in Florida would be a slam dunk. I've read some of the public statements by the Taylor county school board members. They seem to have been partaking too much of their product i.e. a substandard education. In other words, they sound like ignorant hicks. In court, a good lawyer can run circles around such witnesses. Oddly enough, there are a few advantages to having a good education and ability to think.

In Arkansas, one of the creo leaders testified in court that he believed UFOs were real and piloted by demons from hell. In some places that sort of statement might be the norm but most places it labels someone as a wingnut.

Not sure how much any of this matters. In some states, they just ignore the guidelines and don't bother to teach evolution or teach creationism anyway. In seems to be most of Arkansas and at least half of Texas. Doesn't look like there is any enforcement or interest in such.

Stacy S. · 12 January 2008

@ Ichthyic - That letter is un - f*****g believeable!

Ichthyic · 12 January 2008

ain't it tho?

to think, that guy was their congressional rep for years (outed by term limit), and now wants to be mayor.

*shudder*

Bobby · 12 January 2008

If the various county Voluntary Ignorance Resolutions are similar or identical, it is almost certain that there is an organization or two behind them. Most likely the DI. Otherwise the coincidences would be way too improbable.

If someone has the time it would be nice to build a stemma for them, to see whether the later are merely copying the earlier, or whether they all descend from some unpublished source.

Ichthyic · 12 January 2008

congressional rep

sorry council rep.

Stacy S. · 12 January 2008

In the very least - I think we might have a case that they violated Florida's "Sunshine Law" http://myfloridalegal.com/pages.nsf/main/b2f05db987e9d14c85256cc7000b28f6!OpenDocument - Hopefully we can find the source.

Ernst Hot · 13 January 2008

... so that evolution is presented as one of several theories as to how the universe was formed.

Those poor, confused creatonists...

Frank J · 13 January 2008

Those poor, confused creatonists…
— Ernst Hot

Maybe they'll tell us how many Universe "kinds" were on the Ark. ;-)

Frank J · 13 January 2008

jaw dropping ignorance.
— Ichthyic

Give him a break. Maybe his area of expertise is molecular genetics ;-) (I had to work in "plagiarized errors" somehow)

Frank J · 13 January 2008

More on plagiarized errors.

Peter Henderson · 13 January 2008

It’s time to do some detective work and trace back the inevitable links to creationism.

I would say if you looked back far enough, nearly all the creation rows in the US have their origins with Answers in Genesis. Certainly our own situation in Lisburn Co. Antrim (which appears to have gone very quite over the last couple of months) was fueled by two visits of AiG speakers, Monty White and Paul Taylor: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/ni/2007/10/lisburns_creation_row.html I would expect things to heat up again over the coming months though. CMI are here in February and are speaking at Dunluce Christian Fellowship in Portrush (responsible for the giant's causeway nonsense, rather like the Grand Canyon, situation in the US), and we are also being "blessed" with Ken Ham and David Menton's presence in May (I would imagine this will draw exceptionally large crowds). AiG's influence really does stretch far and wide it would seem. The success of it's so called museum just goes to show that there will be many more "Dovers" in the future. Still, according to my brother, who works for the Department of Education and skills in NI, they (the department) receive quite a lot of queries asking why "ID" isn't taught alongside evolution (i.e. why don't you teach other points of view etc.). The standard reply that the Department of Education gives is that "ID isn't science so it's not taught as science" . At least there's some hope here.

Peter Henderson · 13 January 2008

It’s time to do some detective work and trace back the inevitable links to creationism.

I would say if you looked back far enough, nearly all the creation rows in the US have their origins with Answers in Genesis. Certainly our own situation in Lisburn Co. Antrim (which appears to have gone very quite over the last couple of months) was fueled by two visits of AiG speakers,Monty White and Paul Taylor: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/ni/2007/10/lisburns_creation_row.html I would expect things to heat up again over the coming months though. CMI are here in February and are speaking at Dunluce Christian Fellowship in Portrush (responsible for the giant's causeway nonsense, rather like the Grand Canyon, situation in the US), and we are also being "blessed" with Ken Ham and David Menton's presence in May (I would imagine this will draw exceptionally large crowds). AiG's influence really does stretch far and wide it would seem. The success of it's so called museum just goes to show that there will be many more "Dovers" in the future. Still, according to my brother, who works for the Department of Education and skills in NI, they (the department) receive quite a lot of queries asking why "ID" isn't taught alongside evolution (i.e. why don't you teach other points of view etc.). The standard reply that the Department of Education gives is that "ID isn't science so it's not taught as science" . At least there's some hope here.

Tom · 13 January 2008

A few words, early on, explaining who Bruce Gordon, Philip Johnson, Paul Nelson, Del Ratzsch, Ryan Nichols, and William Dembski are would useful for those who visit here and don't know who they are and their reputation.

PvM · 13 January 2008

Tom: A few words, early on, explaining who Bruce Gordon, Philip Johnson, Paul Nelson, Del Ratzsch, Ryan Nichols, and William Dembski are would useful for those who visit here and don't know who they are and their reputation.

Excellent point, this is a work in progress :-) Unless it has a colored bullet, the links have not been added.

PvM · 13 January 2008

Eric K and others, please do not hijack this particular thread. Florida only and only constructive contributions. Your postings are now at the bathroom wall

Matthew Lowry · 13 January 2008

Eric Kuhns: This website's posts are also ignorant, in the way they are written. I read alot of the articles and they really make creationism almost look unintelligent. I think we should all remember that evolution is just as much theory as creationism is detailed on this website. Although, I agree that religious extremists shouldn't push evolution out of the text books. If it is all theory, why don't we just teach both views, as they are 2 of the largest belief systems in America as to how the World was formulated. I'm refering to not only school's text books, but museums as well. Let people create their own opinions without forcing a certain belief or theory down their throats. Interesting site though! :)

Question for you Eric: if you really do believe that we should "teach all views", since neither (in your mind) evolution or creationism are properly substantiated and "just theories", then you should really think about the implications. For example, if the criteria for what material to teach students in public school science is that the concept must "only be just a theory" and not substantiated, then doesn't that open the door a bit wide for all manner of craziness to enter? Consider this: would you object to any of the following? Your kids being taught (as just as factual as the current science)... ... the Raelian version of ID in biology class... ... astrology in astronomy class... ... the four-element (air, earth, fire, water) model of alchemy in chemistry class... ... the Transcendental Meditation view of gravity in physics... ... or the principles of Scientology in psychology class. But why stop there with the science classes? How about if we "teach all views" in history class as well? Would you feel comfortable with your kids learning (as just as factual as what is now taught) that the Holocaust of World War II was all a Jewish conspiracy? I have to say that if you are sincere in your "teach all views" argument, then you must be prepared to accept all of the above (and more) as valid science/history in public school classes. If you object to any of the above, I would have to then label you as a hypocrite. Be careful about that pesky "teach all views" or "teach the controversy" argument. If you were actually successful with it, then you might have opened a Pandora's Box. Get the point?

Matthew Lowry · 13 January 2008

PvM: Eric K and others, please do not hijack this particular thread. Florida only and only constructive contributions. Your postings are now at the bathroom wall

PvM's point is well placed. I do hope that my post about the logical conclusion of the "teach all views" argument is noted as a viable critique. It should be pointed out to the school boards in question, I believe.

Paul Burnett · 13 January 2008

Remember framing. In any correspondence, when at all possible, never use the term "intelligent design" by itself - always use the term "intelligent design creationism."

It seems that many of these Floridians are more interested in creationism than in intelligent design. We should do everything we can to "help" them understand that intelligent design is nothing more than a variant of creationism. Florida may very well undo all the work the Dishonesty Institute has invested in trying to separate the two "theories."

Stacy S. · 13 January 2008

This is the letter that David Gibbs (I mentioned him earlier, Christian Law Attorney)sent the Fl BoE http://www.floridabaptistwitness.com/evolution.pdf
Does it look like it's similar to the SB resolutions that are going around?

Stacy S. · 13 January 2008

The "push" now seems to be that teaching evolution is the same as teaching a religion.

Paul Burnett · 13 January 2008

Stacy S. : This is the letter that David Gibbs (I mentioned him earlier, Christian Law Attorney)sent the Fl BoE - http://www.floridabaptistwitness.com/evolution.pdf Does it look like it's similar to the SB resolutions that are going around?

Take a look at http://www.creationstudies.org/ - same document! From the "Creation Studies Institute." The website is registered through Network Solutions to the Creation Studies Institute, 5601 North Federal Highway, Fort Lauderdale, FL 33308, Phone 954-771-1652, jdcsi@bellsouth.net

Paul Burnett · 13 January 2008

Stacy S. : This is the letter that David Gibbs (I mentioned him earlier, Christian Law Attorney)sent the Fl BoE - http://www.floridabaptistwitness.com/evolution.pdf Does it look like it's similar to the SB resolutions that are going around?

In the letter, attorney David Gibbs mentions "Dr. Francis Grubbs (who) is a longtime well-respected colleague and education expert, particularly in curriculum issues." Later in the letter, Gibbs refers to "Dr. Francis C. Grubbs." Google has one hit for a "Dr. Francis C. Grubbs" - the Gibbs letter at www.creationstudies.org But Google has a number of hits for a "Dr. Francis Grubbs" who is actually "Dr. Francis W. Grubbs," whose info at http://www.zoominfo.com/Search/PersonDetail.aspx?PersonID=43816781 says that Francis W. is "...an educator, administrator, consultant, author, and lecturer. He has served as president of two colleges and a seminary for a quarter century." and "His education includes undergraduate degrees in theology and communications, his masters degree is in educational administration, and his PH.D. in the fields of education and administration." Any guesses if Francis C. and Francis W. are the same person? Or is this just a coincidence? And what are the chances that Francis is a Fellow of the Dishonesty Institute?

Paul Burnett · 13 January 2008

Earlier I noted

In the (http://www.floridabaptistwitness.com/evolution.pdf ) letter, attorney David Gibbs mentions "Dr. Francis Grubbs..."

Google shows that a "Dr. Francis Grubbs" received an "Award of Merit" in 2007 ( http://www.crown.edu/4622.0.html ) from "Crown College" which was founded in 1916 as a Bible college near Saint Paul, Minnesota, where it was first called the "Saint Paul Bible Institute" and later the "St. Paul Bible College," where "Over 60% of Crown's full-time faculty hold doctorates and all are evangelical Christians with a passion to teach." ( http://www.crown.edu/3389.0.html ). I'm not saying yet that attorney Gibbs' "Francis Grubbs" is Crown College's "Francis Grubbs" - but this is beginning to look like it might add up...

Stacy S. · 13 January 2008

Paul,Good detective work!! That's a step in the right direction:) I still think we need to show a connection to the School Board resolutions (insert county here document). Do you see something in there that I'm missing?

Stacy S. · 13 January 2008

I guess if we can connect him to the DI that would be pretty cool.

Paul Burnett · 13 January 2008

Earlier I noted the letter that Stacy alerted us to was also at

http://www.creationstudies.org/ - same document! From the "Creation Studies Institute."

It turns out that "...the Creation Studies Institute (CSI) that was “launched” in May (2004)...(is)...the new origins outreach of Coral Ridge Ministries..." http://www.coralridge.org/impact/2004_Sep_Pg7.htm And more of our old friends are mentioned: "...CSI and Answers in Genesis will co-labor on the dinosaur excavation effort..." And "...when DeRosa (CSI executive director) traveled to California to meet with Dr. John Morris, president of the Institute for Creation Research and other ICR staff members. Dr. Morris has graciously offered assistance and support to the Creation Studies Institute." This is really adding up, isn't it? The whole Florida plot may be a Young Earth Creationist exercise rather than a Dishonesty Institute exercise.

Stacy S. · 13 January 2008

Sooo ... we've been looking at the wrong branch of the family tree!! Hmmmnn...

Stacy S. · 13 January 2008

Quote from CRM - “We are excited about the future and the great work God has planned for us as we attack the most horrific lie of all time—evolution.” I wonder how they are going to "Prepare" the fossils they find:)

Matthew Lowry · 13 January 2008

I found this info on Coral Ridge Ministries from Americans United. It seems they've been having financial troubles, so perhaps they are trying to link up with other groups as a way of saving their skins.

In addition, that link seems to show that CRM is affiliated with another group called the Center for Reclaiming America. CRA held a conference back in April 2007 that might be relevant - perhaps the groups in question had a get together then?

mary · 13 January 2008

Hello from Florida!
I went to the meeting in Jacksonville on the science standards week before last and one of the speakers against evolution introduced herself as the president elect of the Fl School Board association. Apparently she is married to a minister and was accompanied by a support group. Her name is Beverly Slough and she is listed above as "assisting in drafting the resolution for St Johns County". Mrs Slough would have access to all these school boards and may have drafted or helped draft other of these resolutions.

MaryB

gabriel · 13 January 2008

OT, but thank you for the link to the Nichols article. This was just the sort of thing I have been looking for - a published, accessible (yet substantial) critique of Dembski. (I'm working on a deadline to write a chapter for an edited book - the topic being "Biology and Christian Faith.")

Wildy · 13 January 2008

This is starting to get ridiculous in the US on this issue. Why can't these people see that it is their beliefs that cause this conflict with the facts rather then thinking the facts are an attack on their beliefs?

Paul Burnett · 13 January 2008

This just gets better and better. The letter that Stacy alerted us to was written by one "David Gibbs III."

"Attorney David Gibbs III, lead attorney in the fight to save the life of Terri Schiavo..." - from the Christian Law Association website, http://www.christianlaw.org

"So says attorney David Gibbs III of his lawyer father, David Gibbs Jr (who founded the Christian Law Association). Together, they work as legal missionaries defending the rights of churches and Christians nationwide." and "The Christian Law Association takes many types of Christian free-speech cases..." and "The firm, headquartered in Seminole, FL, also has an office in Ohio." - http://www.freemethodistchurch.org/Magazine/Articles/July-Aug_2005/SaltShakers_Gibbs.htm

(And guess who else is in Ohio? Dr. Francis Grubbs is President of Chappel Creek Village Retirement Center and Resort in Vermilion, Ohio.)

"(David) Gibbs (III) is a graduate of Liberty University, the college founded by conservative activist Rev. Jerry Falwell. ...Gibbs is the son of David Gibbs Jr., founder and president of the Christian Law Association, a fundamentalist Christian "ministry of legal helps." According to Liquid List, CLA raises about $3 million a year in donations, about $1.85 million of which goes to the Gibbs Law Firm, headed by -- that's right -- David Gibbs III, who is also the CLA’s corporate secretary." - http://conwebwatch.tripod.com/stories/2005/schiavo3.html

"The Rights of Christians in America's Public Schools" - an article on the Answers In Genesis website by David Gibbs Jr. and David Gibbs III - http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v2/n3/christians-rights-in-schools

"According to CLA's tax documents, somehow, it appears, the Christian Law Association is able to raise nearly $3 million a year. Of that amount, again according to their 2002 form 990 (tax form that must be filed by all 501c3 charities)...$1.85 million went to pay for the services of Gibbs Law Firm, headed up by our and Terry Schiavo's parents' friend, and Secretary of the Christian Law Association, David Gibbs III. Now I'm not saying anything shifty is going on here. Mostly what this information shows is that we have yet another lunatic fundamentalist organization with alarmingly good financial resources raising a ruckus for no good (to a normal person) reason. However, while the Christian Law Association provides... cost-free legal assistance to Bible-believing churches and Christians ...it does so by funneling nearly $2 million to the founder's son, who also happens to be the organization's corporate secretary. ... Three million raised, from the gullible rapture-right! See what a little ingenuity and the U.S. postal service can do for you?" -http://whatdoiknow.typepad.com/what_do_i_know/2005/03/theyll_get_lett.html

Stacy S. · 13 January 2008

Hey Mary! Thanks for finding your way here! I was there too--at the Jax meeting, the people here on PT have been awesome! Helped me get my speech ready! Bev Slough is likely a good candidate for a lot of this mischief. Don't you think if we could prove a common denominator, we could show that the Sunshine Law is being broken? @Matthew - Most of me was smiles when I was reading about that group going bankrupt!

Stacy S. · 13 January 2008

WoW Paul!!

Nigel D · 14 January 2008

If the various county Voluntary Ignorance Resolutions are similar or identical, it is almost certain that there is an organization or two behind them. Most likely the DI. Otherwise the coincidences would be way too improbable.
— Raven

Hold on a sec, Raven. Are you using an argument from personal incredulity to make a design inference?? :-)

Stacy S. · 14 January 2008

Nigel, you made me giggle again :)

Peter Henderson · 14 January 2008

And more of our old friends are mentioned: “…CSI and Answers in Genesis will co-labor on the dinosaur excavation effort…”

Well, I did say in my earlier post that if you dig deep enough AiG will be in there somewhere, as they are over here both in Lisburn and The Giant's causeway. Don't forget that in Dover, some of the members of the school board that advocated intelligent design were in fact YEC's like Bill Buckingham for example. This is despite the fact that AiG has no time for the discovery Institute.

Mark · 14 January 2008

Unfortunately, it's nearly impossible for real science to compete with MAGIC.

Stacy S. · 14 January 2008

@ Mike - LMFAO!!!

Stacy S. · 14 January 2008

Hey - There was a lawsuit a couple of months back in CA related to this. Does anyone remember what it was?

Matthew Lowry · 14 January 2008

Stacy S. : Hey - There was a lawsuit a couple of months back in CA related to this. Does anyone remember what it was?

Stacy, is this what you were looking for?

Matthew Lowry · 14 January 2008

Stacy, here's another one that might be relevant.

Matthew Lowry · 14 January 2008

Mark: Unfortunately, it's nearly impossible for real science to compete with MAGIC.

Okay, I had to share this - best cartoon EVER!

MememicBottleneck · 14 January 2008

A few years ago a group of fundies took over our school board. They didn't run for the positions on any religious grounds, and no one knew they were backed by the same organization. I certainly didn't. They started cutting the budget (primarily the staff wages, bus drivers, janitors, cafeteria workers etc.) and putting the money in a reserve account. I'm assuming now the intent was to use it for litigation. We called a special election and recalled the whole group of them before they did any real damage.

Spring forward a couple years, I start a new job and I'm eating lunch with a fundie activist (who lives in another city). He starts bragging about how his group used to own the school board in my district. I did not let on that it was my kids school district. Maybe I can pump him for a bit of information.

These very Christian folk got elected under false pretenses, were funded by people who had no connection to our district and took money from those who could least afford it. Yep, sounds like a cult I'd like to join.

Glen Davidson · 14 January 2008

Seems to me that these developments ought not to be ignored, nor seen as anything but hot air at the present time. In fact, if they do follow up with anything meaningful, the obvious religious implications (creation, and of the universe at that--clearly they're thinking in terms of religious myth, not with the constraints of science) in these resolutions could play against them in a court case.

They're playing to their constituents with these resolution, no question. The state board will be inclined to look at the resolutions as so many ignorant and poorly written bits of nonsense not actually aimed at themselves, targeted at the hicks who think that Ken Ham (or Billy D, for that matter) does science.

So sure, the fact that they are concerned about pleasing the unwashed and uneducated masses by taking aim against science does itself mean something, it's just not certain how much it means. The coordination apparent among them might be only due to grassroots complaints and a few people whining in unison, while cobbling together a few resolutions out of their meager ID resources, either separately or together. I'm not saying that DI prompting isn't plausible, it's just that I can't see it in the evidence I've encountered (and no, I haven't gone through most of the links, so I could be ignoring evidence which exists). It wouldn't take more than a few relatives and friends calling each other, and using ID material as "expert advice," to produce a few sad little resolutions aping the fairness claptrap coming out of the DI.

Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/3yyvfg

wamba · 14 January 2008

Seems that some counties in Florida are setting themselves up for another Dover-like lawsuit.

The ones I have read (e.g. Taylor county) do not mandate teaching Creationism in their own jurisdiction, but are directed at informing the state Board of Education of their position. If they stick to that tack, would they steer clear of lawsuits?

Stacy S. · 14 January 2008

@Matthew - I'm pretty sure that the Larry Caldwell one was what I was looking for.
Thank you SOOOO much. :) There was a decision right? I think I'll send that one certified mail to the BoE!!! @ MememicBottleneck - HOLY CRAP!! Unbelieveable!!
@ Glen Davidson - I HOPE the BoE sees these resolutions as "Hot Air" too, but we know of TWO on the BoE that are in their ranks for sure. Feb. 19th is the date the BoE votes on the standards - I'm not going to sleep much until then :(

Paul Burnett · 14 January 2008

In today's Florida Today ( http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080114/BREAKINGNEWS/80114070/1086 )

"Tell us: Intelligent design in schools?

The Florida Board of Education will consider adopting proposed new state science standards, which embrace Charles Darwin’s evolution theory as a foundation of modern biology.

The standards have been favorably received by teachers and scientists. But in four public hearings and thousands of postings on a Department of Education Web site, many parents and other observers have objected to the teachings and argue faith-based theories of creation should be in the curriculum.

Brevard Public Schools had the same battle in 2006, when the school board voted to take out two paragraphs in a science text that explained intelligent design.

Does intelligent design have a place in the classroom? Let us know your thoughts for an upcoming story.

Contact Education Reporter Megan Downs at mdowns@floridatoday.com and include your name and a daytime phone number."

The lady's asking for help. I've already sent her the URL for this thread. Anybody else with information for Megan?

WCD · 14 January 2008

Stacy S. : @Matthew - I'm pretty sure that the Larry Caldwell one was what I was looking for.

Stacy, I was one of the teachers dealing with L. Caldwell. Not sure it was exactly like what is happening in FL. If you've got any questions about Caldwell and what was happening in Roseville, CA. I may be able to help, email me. In short caldwell wanted to have 'supplemental material' included in the curriculum to balance the evolution only approach. We said no - the board voted 3-2 against his 'policy'; he sued members of the administrative team in Federal court for civil rights violation - Fed. court basically through him out. He's kind of disappeared.

Stacy S. · 14 January 2008

WCD - I think it's pretty similar. The "ID Creationists" (winking at Paul)are claiming that evolution is a religion, so now their argument is "If they can do it - so can we". David Gibbs - the attorney we were discussing in the previous posts - sent another threatening letter today. http://www.flascience.org/wp/ .

Stacy S. · 14 January 2008

WCD - Actually, the more I think about it - it's pretty similar to "Scopes" too huh?

Ichthyic · 14 January 2008

WCD - Actually, the more I think about it - it’s pretty similar to “Scopes” too huh?

nothing new under the sun.

they've been playing this game since before Paley's time.

raven · 14 January 2008

David Gibbs - the attorney we were discussing in the previous posts - sent another threatening letter today.

Gibbs is a religious extremist who files a lot of cases. Some people would call him a flat out wacko. I wouldn't worry too much about him. While he files a lot of cases, the ones I'm familiar with, he lost and rather quickly. Anyone can file lawsuits, winning is another matter altogether.

Stacy S. · 14 January 2008

I wish I knew who Paley was:)

Ichthyic · 14 January 2008

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Paley

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchmaker_analogy

It would indeed be worthwhile to familiarize yourself with Paley's watchmaker argument, at least, to better understand the history of the ID nonsense.

enjoy(?)

;)

Stacy S. · 14 January 2008

I must have been looking him up as you were providing the links - Thank you by the way - Yes, I already noticed the "Watchmaker" and "Evidence of Design" arguments!!:)

WCD · 14 January 2008

Stacy S. : WCD - Actually, the more I think about it - it's pretty similar to "Scopes" too huh?

More similar to Scopes? I'd agree with that although nobody was close to arrest or being fired, at least in Roseville. In our case, Caldwell's 'expert' was Cornelius Hunter. Hunter maintains that evolution is predicated on the theistic interpretation of Charles Darwin and so is religiously motivated. That, I think fits in with what is happening in FL. The rest of Caldwell and Hunter's arguments were of the 'teach the strengths and weaknesses' theme.

Stacy S. · 14 January 2008

@WCD - "The rest of Caldwell and Hunter’s arguments were of the ‘teach the strengths and weaknesses’ theme."
That's exactly what they are trying to do,and apparently if he doesn't get his way he'll file a lawsuit. My fear is that this might hold up the new and improved standards for a couple of years.

The Sanity Inspector · 14 January 2008

Not so far off-topic, the website Answers in Genesis offers some tips on how to get your creationist letter published in the newspaper.

Matthew Lowry · 14 January 2008

Stacy S. : @Matthew - I'm pretty sure that the Larry Caldwell one was what I was looking for. Thank you SOOOO much. :) There was a decision right? I think I'll send that one certified mail to the BoE!!!

Yes, there was a decision just this last September. Larry Caldwell got, as the kids say nowadays, "owned" :-) Good luck in Florida!

Matthew Lowry · 14 January 2008

Stacy S. : @WCD - "The rest of Caldwell and Hunter’s arguments were of the ‘teach the strengths and weaknesses’ theme." That's exactly what they are trying to do,and apparently if he doesn't get his way he'll file a lawsuit. My fear is that this might hold up the new and improved standards for a couple of years.

I think the way to hit back at these jerks is to counter-sue to make them pay all the court costs if they lose. That might deter the Larry Caldwell's a little bit, eh? I'm no lawyer, so I have no idea if this is a feasible strategy, but it'd be damn nice if it were. Might be worth looking into ahead of time so if the creationists get itchy trigger fingers you can look them straight in the eye and say "Go ahead, make my day."

Matthew Lowry · 14 January 2008

The Sanity Inspector: Not so far off-topic, the website Answers in Genesis offers some tips on how to get your creationist letter published in the newspaper.

Fight fire with fire folks. The NCSE has advice on how to get letters published in your local paper as well. Talk to some friends, watch the editorial pages, and start writing. We've organized a group to do this very thing in my neck of the woods, and we've been very successful at it. It really pisses off the local creationists to see us in the letters-to-the-editor :-)

Matthew Lowry · 14 January 2008

Stacy S. : @WCD - "The rest of Caldwell and Hunter’s arguments were of the ‘teach the strengths and weaknesses’ theme." That's exactly what they are trying to do,and apparently if he doesn't get his way he'll file a lawsuit. My fear is that this might hold up the new and improved standards for a couple of years.

Stacy, here are some more tips from the NCSE on attending local school board meetings. Check them out!

Wesley R. Elsberry · 15 January 2008

One thing that isn't in the NCSE tips list and should be is that if recording devices are permitted, make sure that someone on the pro-science side is making an audio or audio-plus-video record of such events. Much court wrangling could have been avoided in the Kitzmiller case if there had been a recording of various school board meetings. The board there had a policy of tape-recording meetings and then destroying the recordings after the minutes were accepted, which means that you cannot rely upon the government officials to adequately document and preserve statements made, even if they are making an official recording at the time of the meeting.

I recommend the Olympus voice recorders. I prefer the units that have a jack for an external microphone. They fit in a pocket, the small external microphone I use is unobtrusive, they do well for meetings when set to "conference" sensitivity, and they will record for several hours straight if you put in a fresh battery, meaning that you don't have to fidget with equipment during a meeting. Another must is the ability to transfer files of recordings directly to a computer via USB, rather than re-recording an output sound. The WS-311M recorder is currently selling for $75 at Newegg. If you can afford a bit more, Olympus has similar units with more memory.

Ichthyic · 15 January 2008

which means that you cannot rely upon the government officials to adequately document and preserve statements made,

I thought we knew that since Nixon?

Torbjörn Larsson, OM · 15 January 2008

@ Stacy S.:

the “Watchmaker” and “Evidence of Design” arguments

Also, creationists persists in calling the part of biology that contains evolution for "Darwinism" as if it is an untestable philosophy. They do so in spite of slowly learning to mirror science supporters arguments while rejecting the factual content, i.e. they have increasingly claimed that evolution is a religion instead of facing up to what science and specifically evolution is. As a reaction to their mislabeling it has been proposed that they by their own methods should be called "Payleists". [Though ID, YE et cetera aren't philosophies any more than evolution is, it is theologies of opinionated statements by a religious movement.]

Stacy S. · 15 January 2008

Matthew - Thanks for sending that decision :) Also, luckily, the ACLU is already poised to file a suit or counter-suit.

You said "Talk to some friends, watch the editorial pages, and start writing" - unfortunately, I am sure that I am in the minority where I live. It took a lot out of me to speak at the BoE science standards meeting with the opposing viewpoint of most of my community. Luckily, there was quite a good turnout at the Jax meeting - people all over the state, educators, and scientists - so I wasn't completely alone:)

I have "Google Alerts" set up for INTELLIGENT DESIGN and EVOLUTION FLORIDA and I am pleased in general with the way the "REST" of Florida is handling this situation. Miami, Tampa, and the other big cities seem to have a majority of pro-science newspaper articles and comments in them. The "fundies" that comment, often come across as completely ignorant.

Tonight the St. Johns County SB is having a meeting and is scheduled to decide if they are going to pass one of these resolutions and send it to the State BoE. I'll be interested to see the wording used.

Personally, I don't even see how the state BoE can even consider these resolutions. They obviously don't speak for everyone in the county. Nothing was publicized about this "resolution' meeting, the only reason we know about it is because one of the ladies involved in http://www.flascience.org/index.html just happened to notice the "briefs" section on their website. I doubt the fundies even know about this proposed resolution.

If you are interested - here are the e mail addresses to the St. Johns County SB!! ;) sloughb@stjohns.k12.fl.us;allent@stjohns.k12.fl.us;mignonb@stjohns.k12.fl.us
;fehlinb@stjohns.k12.fl.us;wrightc@stjohns.k12.fl.us;joynerj@stjohns.k12.fl.us

Stacy S. · 15 January 2008

Wesley R. Elsberry - Thanks for the tip!

Mr_Christopher · 15 January 2008

Direct the board of education to the dumbest Dembski/ID thread of all time and watch them change their tune.

"IDs Predictive Prowess"
http://www.uncommondescent.com/the-design-of-life/ids-predictive-prowess/#comment-163087

You'll find more tard, pound for pound, in that thread than 50 of them combined. Two simple questions are posed by Dembski and not a single commentor has made an attempt to answer them. The level of stupidity is jaw dropping.

Check it out.

Stacy S. · 15 January 2008

Mr_Christopher - LOLOL!! I like this one ... "PS. Dr. Dembski, you are being set up for a fall, in my opinion. I would decline the offer if I were you. Now is not the time. One man’s opinion." LOL :)

WCD · 15 January 2008

Good tips from Dr. Elsberry. Record public meetings. If/when people know they are being recorded they begin to think at least a little bit before they speak. Ask if you can record 'non-public' meetings, the trick is to make sure it doesn't come off as confrontational. Write letters, you've got at least a few parents (and probably more than you may think) on your side, get them to write letters. Use/join the NCSE.

"Nothing was publicized about this “resolution’ meeting" - That's part of the reason the resolutions have gotten this far, nobody really knows what happened. Let people know. Your letter-writing, etc. will bring it out in the open.

Frank J · 15 January 2008

Direct the board of education to the dumbest Dembski/ID thread of all time and watch them change their tune.
— Mr_Christopher

As dumb as it sounds to us, most BOE rubes will either not understand what they are talking about, or if they do, might be horrified that they (DaveScot at least) seem to favor a "front loading, billions of years ago" alternative. Like Michael Behe, DaveScot has admitted common descent.

Stacy S. · 15 January 2008

Anyone out there capable of figuring out who owns this site :shouldersofgiants.org. ? Hat tip to Karen at http://www.flascience.org !
She was able to get the "DRAFT" of the resolution. It will probably look a little different after Bev S. gets done with it. It looks quite similar to the others - don't you think?? http://shouldersofgiants.org/science/resolution-draft.pdf

Matthew Lowry · 15 January 2008

Frank J: Like Michael Behe, DaveScot has admitted common descent.

Oh my, a dirty little secret indeed. I wonder how many times either of them mention this when discussing ID with a group of YECs or OECs? If they did they'd be leading with their chins. It just goes to show how dishonest they are in their presentation of the topic to both YEC/OECs and the scientific community.

Paul Flocken · 15 January 2008

from whois: http://whois.domaintools.com/shouldersofgiants.org

Front Page Information

Website Title: shouldersofgiants.org

Title Relevancy 100%

AboutUs: Wiki article on Shouldersofgiants.org

SEO Score: 69%

Terms: 26 (Unique: 24, Linked: 0)

Images: 1 (Alt tags missing: 1)

Links: 0 (Internal: 0, Outbound: 0)

Indexed Data

Registry Data

Created: 2007-02-07

Expires: 2008-02-07

Whois Server: whois.pir.org

Server Data

Server Type: Apache/2

IP Address: 208.115.37.102 [Whois] [Reverse-Ip] [Ping] [DNS Lookup] [Traceroute]

IP Location United States - Florida - Boca Raton - Bocacom.net Llc

Response Code: 200

Blacklist Status: Clear

Domain Status: Registered And Active Website

DomainTools Exclusive

Registrant Search: "Domains by Proxy, Inc." owns about 4,963,452 other domains

Email Search: is associated with about 1 domains

Registrar History: 1 registrar

NS History: 7 changes on 5 unique name servers over 5 years.

IP History: 11 changes on 8 unique name servers over 2 years.

Whois History: 1 record has been archived since 2007-11-24.

Reverse IP: 469 other sites hosted on this server.

Monitor Domain: [Monitor this domain] Set Free Alerts on shouldersofgiants.org

Free Tool: Download DomainTools

Whois Record

Domain ID:D139102281-LROR

Domain Name:SHOULDERSOFGIANTS.ORG

Created On:07-Feb-2007 15:09:52 UTC

Last Updated On:08-Sep-2007 01:33:26 UTC

Expiration Date:07-Feb-2008 15:09:52 UTC

Sponsoring Registrar:GoDaddy.com, Inc. (R91-LROR)

Status:CLIENT DELETE PROHIBITED

Status:CLIENT RENEW PROHIBITED

Status:CLIENT TRANSFER PROHIBITED

Status:CLIENT UPDATE PROHIBITED

Registrant ID:GODA-027736027

Registrant Name:Registration Private

Registrant Organization:Domains by Proxy, Inc.

Registrant Street1:DomainsByProxy.com

Registrant Street2:15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353

Registrant Street3:

Registrant City:Scottsdale

Registrant State/Province:Arizona

Registrant Postal Code:85260

Registrant Country:US

Registrant Phone:+1.4806242599

Registrant Phone Ext.:

Registrant FAX:+1.4806242599

Registrant FAX Ext.:

Registrant Email:

Admin ID:GODA-227736027

Admin Name:Registration Private

Admin Organization:Domains by Proxy, Inc.

Admin Street1:DomainsByProxy.com

Admin Street2:15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353

Admin Street3:

Admin City:Scottsdale

Admin State/Province:Arizona

Admin Postal Code:85260

Admin Country:US

Admin Phone:+1.4806242599

Admin Phone Ext.:

Admin FAX:+1.4806242599

Admin FAX Ext.:

Admin Email:

Tech ID:GODA-127736027

Tech Name:Registration Private

Tech Organization:Domains by Proxy, Inc.

Tech Street1:DomainsByProxy.com

Tech Street2:15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353

Tech Street3:

Tech City:Scottsdale

Tech State/Province:Arizona

Tech Postal Code:85260

Tech Country:US

Tech Phone:+1.4806242599

Tech Phone Ext.:

Tech FAX:+1.4806242599

Tech FAX Ext.:

Tech Email:

Name Server:NS400A.PRIVATELABELDNS.COM

Name Server:NS400B.PRIVATELABELDNS.COM

Frank J · 15 January 2008

Oh my, a dirty little secret indeed. I wonder how many times either of them mention this when discussing ID with a group of YECs or OECs?
— Matthew Lowry

Of course with them they play "don't ask, don't tell." What kills me though is that us critics are helping them keep it a secret among the general public. What's the worst that could happen? The DI loses clout, and the rank and file split up into AIG and RTB factions? Given the YEC majority, AIG will take the lead, and there will be that much less DI bait-and-switch to deal with.

CJColucci · 15 January 2008

Wesley:
Who knew you could get advice about consumer electronics here? I've been mulling over getting just such an item. Thanks for the tip.

Stacy S. · 15 January 2008

@Paul Flocken - Thanks for all of your hard work (it's quite amazing actually what you can find out!)Sorry to say it's a dead end however. The site belongs to someone from the Fl. Citizens for Science group who hosted it just so the rest of us could view it. That was very nice.

tsig · 16 January 2008

What a god all it can do is twist a bacterias tail.

dc · 16 January 2008

The St Johns County School Board voted 5-0 to support the resolution.

http://staugustine.com/stories/011608/news_txt01_039.shtml

Lots of folks at the meeting talked about beliefs. One board member told a reporter that if a student had a question about intelligent design there ought to be a place to discuss it. We have them all over the state. They're called churches.

If ignorance is bliss, the St. Johns County School Board is very, very happy.

Stacy S. · 16 January 2008

I'll be interested in the Times-Union article tomorrow - cross your fingers.

Alan Conwell · 16 January 2008

Long time lurker, but determined to contribute my share to make a difference. (Stacy S., you gave me the confidence to try here. Thanks!)

As a Fl resident, I did comment on the standards before the closure date, and I was impressed that we (FL) finally were willing to use the e-word. Of course, that's precipitated the problem addressed by this thread...

I couldn't attend my local (Walton Co.) school board meeting today, but their posted agenda doesn't mention anything like that going on in those other FL counties. (More the intense dry, business stuff, like went on in Dover before the storm!) They do indeed post the agenda and minutes for each meeting to the web. As a newbie, how do I update those links on this page so everyone can see without searching?

We have in my next westward neighbor county (Okaloosa) some real (potential) problem children. Recently (in mid Dec 07), a front-page article on the evolution standards was written in the local most-widely read newspaper. It quoted a person noted as a science curriculum specialist the often stated disclaimer "evolution is just a theory, not a fact", and a local SB member Nancy Thigpen thinks that creation/IDC should have "equal time" with evolution in education (that's from memory as I write, so I may have this wrong in the details). Clearly, this forbodes a possible attack on the proposed standards, although I've seen nothing substantive yet. There's an earlier post on this thread that captures most of that comment from Ms. Thigpen.

I'll keep watch! And write my emails to the FL state BofE!

gabriel · 16 January 2008

Stacy S. : I'll be interested in the Times-Union article tomorrow - cross your fingers.

here it is: http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/011708/met_237288652.shtml

Stacy S. · 17 January 2008

Thanks Gabriel!:) @ Alan - Nice to meet you!

Cheryl Shepherd-Adams · 17 January 2008

gabriel:
Stacy S. : I'll be interested in the Times-Union article tomorrow - cross your fingers.
here it is: http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/011708/met_237288652.shtml

Interesting snippet from the article, my bolding:

"Of course, the farther south you get, you don't see them necessarily embracing what we are saying," said Baker County Superintendent Paula Barton. "To be honest with you, we are a strong Christian community here, and once people here have gotten a hold of [the resolution], they've certainly given it strong support."

Seems to speak to some well-organized opposition to the new standards. But oh, for the next step in the Scopes evolution - gotta love this part!

"To be honest with you, we are a strong Christian community here,

Didn't these folks get the memo from the DI to ixnay on the odGay?

Ron Okimoto · 17 January 2008

raven: If the various county Voluntary Ignorance Resolutions are similar or identical, it is almost certain that there is an organization or two behind them. Most likely the DI. Otherwise the coincidences would be way too improbable. These resolutions don't seem to be any more than statements of sentiment rather than actual plans. As such they wouldn't necessarily lead to court cases. A court case in Florida would be a slam dunk. I've read some of the public statements by the Taylor county school board members. They seem to have been partaking too much of their product i.e. a substandard education. In other words, they sound like ignorant hicks. In court, a good lawyer can run circles around such witnesses. Oddly enough, there are a few advantages to having a good education and ability to think.

I would like to know where the resolution came from.

Whereas, the [Insert your County here] School Board recognizes the importance of providing a thorough and comprehensive Science education to all the students in [Insert your County here] and to all students in the state of Florida, it recognizes as even more important the need to present these standards through a fair and balanced approach, an approach that does not unfairly exclude other theories as to the creation of the universe. NOW THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED by the [Insert your county here] School Board of [Insert your county here], Florida, that the Board urges the State Board of Education to direct the Florida Department of Education to revise the new Sunshine State Standards for Science such that evolution is not presented as fact, but as one of several theories.

Is this recent? This looks like the teach the controversy replacement scam pre Ohio. The Florida rubes were already caught supporting the teach ID scam, and now seem to have rolled over for the bait and switch, but is someone feeding them the old scam or are they just too stupid to keep up? The most recent version of the switch scam is to not mention alternatives at all. They should be claiming that they just want to teach more about evolution "warts and all." It is common knowledge that there are no alternative scientific theories that the creationists want to teach. The wording of the quoted resolution just has some of the older dishonest wiggle rhetoric of the teach the controversy creationist scam. Claming alternative "theories" without mentioning that these alternatives are not scientific is a common dishonest creationist tactic. It should not be hard to trace the wording back to creationist scam outfits like the Discovery Institute. If this resolution is recent, who is feeding these rubes this bogus junk? Once they found out that intelligent design was just a dishonest scam, wouldn't any competent dishonest person want to know what the most recent creationist scam was to perpetrate? I'm with Stacey S. Where did this resolution come from? It sounds like something that the Discovery Institute would have written before they had to begin running the public bait and switch scams, and drop their alternative theories to just talk about some controversy where they weren't part of the controversy. Places like evolution news still talk about "alternatives," but the public face of the most recent ID replacement scams like critical analysis do not seem to mention them. I realize that they want to fool the rubes into thinking that there are alternatives that they can teach, but that isn't what they put up to teach. From what I gather the Florida rubes have been clued in that talking about teaching ID was a major mistake, but if this is some recent resolution, they obviously are trusting the wrong dishonest perps for the newest scam to replace the bogus ID scam, or they are just too incompetent to read between the winks and false reassurances to understand what the new scam is.

RM · 17 January 2008

I have followed these developments in from my side of the Atlantic with some interest since I spent a total of 3 years in Alachua county, where the University of Florida is located. So far, that county has not passed any anti-evolution resolution.

Unlike real science, pseudoscience is not international and
does not have to be coherent. Therefore counteracting
pseudoscience usually starts from scratch every time.

The Discovery Institute is much too sophisticated to have influenced the present drive against the teaching of evolution in northern Florida. As I understand it, this is a grass-roots movement helped by Southern Baptist pastors and "experts" like David Gibbs III of the Christian Law Association. These are
people who manage their lives quite well without knowing anything about science.

If this develops into a court case it will be Dover all over.

Stacy S. · 17 January 2008

Here's another question ... What do they have to do for it to BECOME a court case?

It seems to me also, that a "Fair and Balanced" SB would have two resolutions to choose from - one that says - "WE the School Board of (insert county here) respectfully ask the BoE to pass the standards as written so that our students may enter the 21st century"

Frank J · 17 January 2008

Didn’t these folks get the memo from the DI to ixnay on the odGay?
— Cheryl Shepherd-Adams

After Dover, and with "Expelled" coming up they seem to be giving up on that "memo." The "memo" that they are pushing harder than ever is the one to "inxay" on what the designer did, when, and how, and to keep the focus on "weaknesses" with "Darwinism." That one assures that there will be no "critical analysis" of the long-discredited (even by most Christian religions!) fairy tales that the students will infer after their phony "critical analysis" of "Darwinism."

David Stanton · 17 January 2008

RM wrote:

"If this develops into a court case it will be Dover all over."

I think you are right. But this time, when the fundies lie (and you just know they will), someone should demand jail time for them. The court costs should also be paid by the people responsible personally, not the school board. Maybe suing them as individuals would be a better way to go. We should also supoena Dembski and any other wingnuts who are pubilcally on record as stating that ID is all about religion if we can.

I know we won in Dover, but it still leaves a bitter taste that those responsible didn't have to really pay for their actions. Now, apparently everyone and his inbred brother feels like they can just give it a try. Maybe making those who attempt to break the law and violate the Constitution personally responsible for their own actions would make other school districts think twice before pulling this crap again and again.

Oh yea, and have that same science team testify again as well, they did an awesome job.

Stacy S. · 17 January 2008

Alan- you asked - "As a newbie, how do I update those links on this page so everyone can see without searching? "

I don't know how everyone makes the "special" links, but you can just highlight the web address - then copy and paste to the body of your message :)

Bill Gascoyne · 17 January 2008

Alan:

You can see the syntax of any comment by hitting the "Quote" link below it and looking in your "Leave a comment" area.

Stacy S. · 17 January 2008

Hey Bill - While we're on the subject - How do you quote only a portion of someone's message?

Stanton · 17 January 2008

Stacy S. : While we're on the subject - How do you quote only a portion of someone's message?

You simply go back and edit out the portions of the quote you don't want quoted.

Stacy S. · 17 January 2008

Stanton: You simply go back and edit out the portions of the quote you don't want quoted.

Thanks Stanton! :)

Bill Gascoyne · 17 January 2008

Stanton:
Stacy S. : While we're on the subject - How do you quote only a portion of someone's message?
You simply go back and edit out the portions of the quote you don't want quoted.

Being careful, of course, not to mess with the tags (that's anything between the "greater than" and "less than" signs).

Bill Gascoyne · 17 January 2008

And always use the preview button when posting anything but simple text.

D P Robin · 17 January 2008

Bill Gascoyne: And always use the preview button when posting anything but simple text.

As long as Stacy S has opened the questions on formatting, was there any way to have made my footnotes in comment 140297 (the Hagfish thread)look better? I tried to change the spacing in preview several times, but nothing served and I just gave up on it. TIA DPR

Pete Dunkelberg · 17 January 2008

The Clay County location is not obvious if you don't live there. What I think, which easily be wrong:

google maps find
Village Square Parkway, Orange Park, FL 32003
Map:
http://tinyurl.com/2m85zs

Coming from Jacksonville, go south on 17. Turn right on Thunderbolt, then left on Town Center Blvd then Left on Village Square Pky ...

Coming from Gainesville probably take 301, get onto 21 = Blanding somehow, later get onto 220 somehow, go west to Town Center in Orange Park, then right on Village Square Parkway.

Corrections from someone who knows, please.

Pete Dunkelberg · 17 January 2008

How to quote? Use blockquote between a Less than and a Greater than, then end the quote with /blockquote between a Less than and a Greater than. In between the blockquote and the /blockquote, just paste in whatever you want.

Fried liver.

Bill Gascoyne · 17 January 2008

D P Robin: As long as Stacy S has opened the questions on formatting, was there any way to have made my footnotes in comment 140297 (the Hagfish thread)look better? I tried to change the spacing in preview several times, but nothing served and I just gave up on it. TIA DPR

Use "br/" between LT and GT for a single line break.

D P Robin · 17 January 2008

Bill Gascoyne:
D P Robin: As long as Stacy S has opened the questions on formatting, was there any way to have made my footnotes in comment 140297 (the Hagfish thread)look better? I tried to change the spacing in preview several times, but nothing served and I just gave up on it. TIA DPR
Use "br/" between LT and GT for a single line break.

Thanks Bill DPR

Stacy S. · 17 January 2008

Pete, are you going?

Alan C · 17 January 2008

Thanks Stacy and Bill (and everyone else in the interchange) for the hints on responding and formatting. My ambiguous choice of words clearly confused my question's meaning.

We see near the top of this thread are links listed for each FL county, school district, school board, agenda and minutes. For Walton Co., the county and school district links point to the real deal; the rest of the links point back to this page. I surmised that volunteers were being asked to help fill in those self-referential links with actual links. Was I wrong? If not, how do I change those links so anyone can click to see the minutes of the last Walton SB meeting (for example)?

As I said, they were boringly business-like, but it's encouraging they weren't trying to "Clay" county the resolution through with little public discussion or dissent. ("Restroom break, anyone?" ... OK, vote NOW!)

Vernita · 17 January 2008

Vernita:
Vernita: Links to Dr. Forrest's You Tube Videos entitled, "Barbara Forrest: The Woman Texas Creationists Really Don't Want You to Hear" 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cwvE0owTmk 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_OLlAfmrQs 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2m-AT4unW4Q 4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSXxB7JEOOI 5. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E97GFmYNaFI

Mercurious · 17 January 2008

I've been watching this site for a little while and I'd like to just take a moment and say I'm truly impressed by the levels of commitment and participation of all involved to make sure sound science and sound science only is taught in our public schools. If I lived in Florida I'd be more than willing to help in any way possible assure these goals ( I live in Arizona ). I commend you all and say keep up the good work!

dc · 17 January 2008

The Clay County School Board just approved a modified form of the resolution by a vote of 5-0. 22 of the 27 speakers at the meeting opposed the resolution and they covered pretty much all the bases. Some were quite eloquent, including several retired pastors. The five supporters said nothing we hadn’t heard before although the word dogma and its variants showed up a lot when referring to Darwinism. Two (Including a teacher at my own school. Sigh.) emphasized teaching all the “facts” and letting students decide. I was surprised that the local churches didn’t try to pack the meeting room until someone pointed out that this didn’t start to get publicity until after last Sunday’s services.

The resolution that passed had two, maybe three significant wording changes made. In paragraph two, the word “fact” at the end of the last line was changed to “theory.” The new line reads, “...direct the Florida Department of Education to revise the new Sunshine State Standards for Science so that evolution is clarified as a theory.” The last paragraph was also modified so that the last phrase reads, “...revise the new Sunshine State Standards for Science such that evolution is designated as a theory.” I think they also voted to change the word “concept” in the standard to theory (nobody on the board was too sure of what the difference was, the lawyer for the board wouldn’t say anything without first looking it up in a dictionary, and nobody wanted to ask the two actual standards writers in the audience what the difference might mean.) It was all reminiscent of Bacon’s tale of the monks trying to figure out how many teeth a horse has with none of them willing to just look in its mouth and count. I’m pretty sure they made the change but it was getting late. One of the board members said we wouldn’t have spent two hours discussing the resolution if evolution was a fact.

I wasn’t surprised that the resolution passed but I was dumbfounded when a board member asked about the origins of the resolution, who wrote it and who brought it to the board, and our superintendent, David Owens said he was responsible for, “all of the above.” He said later that he worked with Paula Barton to write and distribute it. A couple of us are working to get a copy of the recording of the meeting (video and audio). Earlier in the meeting Owens said that everybody in the room was obviously passionate about their ideas and beliefs. He asked how many concepts in science changed over the years when the information changed? How did we know evolution wouldn’t do likewise. We shouldn’t be so dogmatic about this. We should pass this resolution because it reflects our beliefs. Beliefs equals experimental data. No wonder we have such low science scores down here.

The attorney for the board said that the resolution came as close as possible to violating the Kitzmiller decision without actually crossing the line. The board members were, I think, voting on this as a CYA thing and at least three of them said it wouldn’t make a difference with the state BOE anyway. Maybe if we start good science education now we can have more scientifically literate adults on school boards in the future.

PvM · 17 January 2008

I am slowly working my way through the list but contrary to rumors I do have a life :-) It would be nice to have a wiki like approach but this is the best. If you have anything to report place it in a comment and eventually I will get to it

Alan C: We see near the top of this thread are links listed for each FL county, school district, school board, agenda and minutes. For Walton Co., the county and school district links point to the real deal; the rest of the links point back to this page. I surmised that volunteers were being asked to help fill in those self-referential links with actual links. Was I wrong? If not, how do I change those links so anyone can click to see the minutes of the last Walton SB meeting (for example)? As I said, they were boringly business-like, but it's encouraging they weren't trying to "Clay" county the resolution through with little public discussion or dissent. ("Restroom break, anyone?" ... OK, vote NOW!)

Stacy S. · 18 January 2008

dc: I wasn’t surprised that the resolution passed but I was dumbfounded when a board member asked about the origins of the resolution, who wrote it and who brought it to the board, and our superintendent, David Owens said he was responsible for, “all of the above.” He said later that he worked with Paula Barton to write and distribute it. A couple of us are working to get a copy of the recording of the meeting (video and audio).

DC - Who is Paula Barton? Do you think a recording of the meeting actually exists?

dc: The resolution that passed had two, maybe three significant wording changes made. In paragraph two, the word “fact” at the end of the last line was changed to “theory.” The new line reads, “...direct the Florida Department of Education to revise the new Sunshine State Standards for Science so that evolution is clarified as a theory.” The last paragraph was also modified so that the last phrase reads, “...revise the new Sunshine State Standards for Science such that evolution is designated as a theory.”

LOL!!

Pete Dunkelberg · 18 January 2008

In fact PvM is doing a tremendous job here.

Stacy S. · 18 January 2008

Vernita - I watched the videos. They're excellent!

Stacy S. · 18 January 2008

DC-Got it. Paula Barton "Superintendant of Baker County" - and David Owens "Superintendant of Clay County". I really hope they have a record of that meeting.

Pete Dunkelberg · 18 January 2008

Where are Florida's counties?

here is a map.

Nassau is north of Jacksonville, nearly in Georgia. The northern border of Florida in that area is the St Mary's River; across it there is a large swampy area.

TomS · 18 January 2008

I noticed that the first county mentioned, Taylor county, has a population of less than 20,000.
I mention this because, in a very populous state like Florida, the actions of even several small counties may not have much influence in state-wide decisions. I don't know, I'm just mentioning this.

Mike O'Risal · 18 January 2008

TomS:

Florida is a weird sort of place. Those small rural counties wind up having a lot more influence than they probably should based purely on population. That might have something to do with the state capital being located in Leon County, which is itself a small and largely rural county. There's a sort of bias in the northern part of the state against the southern part, usually summed up in sentiments like calling North Florida "the real Florida." Miami and Tallahassee are entirely different cultures (practically different planets!)

If you go county by county, in any case, Florida has a lot more counties like Clay and Taylor than it does ones like Dade or Broward. When you add all those small counties together, they turn out to have a ton of clout when it comes to state law and the like.

I lived in North Florida for several years; I think it's hard to get a flavor for what it's like if you haven't lived somewhere similar. I wrote a bit about de facto segregation in Taylor County, for instance. I wouldn't suppose most people would think stuff like this still goes on in the 21st century, but from my experience I think it's rather exemplary of culture in many of North Florida's small, underdeveloped counties.

dc · 18 January 2008

Recording of the Clay County School Board meeting should be in my hands by 1/25/08. Copies are $7.00 plus shipping and are available through the superintendent's office. Go to this link

http://www.clay.k12.fl.us/superintendent.htm

and send an email with your contact information to Ms Karen Bush. You can also call her at (904) 284-6510 but she still needs a hard copy of the request before she will ship. I would suggest not inundating her with a lot of requests at one time.

Nate · 18 January 2008

Follow the above link for a map that shows the counties of Florida with regards to the anti-evolution resolutions. From a disstressed Floridian :-/

Nate · 18 January 2008

Link

Stacy S. · 18 January 2008

Thanks for the link Nate - I'm waiting for a call back from the Attorney General's office. This will be helpful.

Alan C. · 18 January 2008

Alan C. said: Hey, but THIS is important, you're intefral to the crusade, man ;-) Seriously, you're doing a great service here, and I'm sure everyone appreciates all your efforts! OK, here are real URLs to the Walton County SB and their agendas/minutes. As I said, this month's meeting was decidedly non-controversial (as published; I saw on flascience.org). Board URL: http://www.walton.k12.fl.us/Board/memberslp.htm Agendas and Minutes: http://www.walton.k12.fl.us/suptweb/

PvM: I am slowly working my way through the list but contrary to rumors I do have a life :-)

Alan C. · 18 January 2008

Sorry, hit "Submit" instead of "Preview". Here comes my updated post.

Alan C. · 18 January 2008

Hey, but THIS is important, you're integral to the crusade, man ;-) Seriously, you're doing a great service here, and I'm sure everyone appreciates all your efforts! OK, here are real URLs to the Walton County SB and their agendas/minutes. As I said, this month's meeting was decidedly non-controversial (as published; I saw on flascience.org by Brandon Haught, in Jackson Co. the agenda was "post-timed" to include a vote on the resolution and the agenda and minutes were updated AFTER the fact to reflect what really happened. It's just disgusting what these people are doing and how they are doing it). Board URL: http://www.walton.k12.fl.us/Board/memberslp.htm Agendas and Minutes: http://www.walton.k12.fl.us/suptweb/
PvM: I am slowly working my way through the list but contrary to rumors I do have a life :-)

PvM · 19 January 2008

Excellent resource. Added to the posting. Thanks so much,

Nate: Follow the above link for a map that shows the counties of Florida with regards to the anti-evolution resolutions. From a disstressed Floridian :-/

PvM · 19 January 2008

As long as I am having fun and see people make positive use of the resources, it is all worth it. I have now finished all the counties, now I am adding school board information as to how the various people voted or how they stand on the issues.

Alan C.: Alan C. said: Hey, but THIS is important, you're intefral to the crusade, man ;-) Seriously, you're doing a great service here, and I'm sure everyone appreciates all your efforts! OK, here are real URLs to the Walton County SB and their agendas/minutes. As I said, this month's meeting was decidedly non-controversial (as published; I saw on flascience.org). Board URL: http://www.walton.k12.fl.us/Board/memberslp.htm Agendas and Minutes: http://www.walton.k12.fl.us/suptweb/
PvM: I am slowly working my way through the list but contrary to rumors I do have a life :-)

RM · 19 January 2008

Now that there are 9 counties against and one county for
the unadulterated teaching of evolution I found it
interesting to look at the population numbers which go
with the maps provided by Pete Dunkelberg. The numbers
are for 1993 so they are a little old. The nine anti-science
counties had a total of 429,413 inhabitants, slightly more
than the one pro-science county - Brevard with 427,035
inhabitants. Things are not so bad as they look.

David Stanton · 19 January 2008

PvM wrote:

"I have now finished all the counties, now I am adding school board information as to how the various people voted or how they stand on the issues."

Excellent. I think this is exactly the right approach. We shouldn't let these retards work their vile subversion in secret meetings. We should expose them to the light of day and public ridicule. At least then they might think twice about supporting something that is unconstitutional and anti-science. If they know someone is watching they should also know that a lawsuit will be inevitable if they persist.

By the way, I would love to see a similar map for Michigan. I know it's a lot of work, but if the records are supposed to be public, at least there is a chance we could get some information. As long as I'm dreaming, it would be nice to have such a resource for the entire country. Maybe we could at least compile all of the available information somewhere. Perhaps the NCSE has some extra staff who aren't doing anything right now. Or maybe not.

Jeff Webber · 19 January 2008

Nate (and everybody else)
Thanks for all the good info and the maps. I don't suppose there is a way to use crosshatch patterns or something instead of colors? I'm color-blind (or as they say now.. I have "color vision confusion"...*snort*) and can't tell some of them apart.

Hmmm, I wonder if the vision thing is God's punishment for being Agnostic, glad I'm not an Atheist. (I'll shut up now)

Rrr · 19 January 2008

David Stanton: Excellent. I think this is exactly the right approach. We shouldn't let these retards work their vile subversion in secret meetings. We should expose them to the light of day and public ridicule. At least then they might think twice about supporting something that is unconstitutional and anti-science. If they know someone is watching they should also know that a lawsuit will be inevitable if they persist.

B.b.b.but wait... Isn't GOd supposed to be watching them? ;-) OTOH, from what I hear, HE'll never tell.

David Stanton · 19 January 2008

Rrr wrote:

"B.b.b.but wait… Isn’t GOd supposed to be watching them? ;-) OTOH, from what I hear, HE’ll never tell."

Yes, God is supposed to be watching them, but she seems to have no inclination to stop them from doing this or any number of other immoral things. Too bad the commandments aren't enough either. Oh well, I guess it's up to us to do God's work for her, again.

Torbjörn Larsson, OM · 19 January 2008

PvM is doing a tremendous job here.

I'll second that - as well as shouting more huzzahs on the other commenters good work.

Paul Burnett · 19 January 2008

Jeff Webber: I don't suppose there is a way to use crosshatch patterns or something instead of colors? I'm color-blind (or as they say now.. I have "color vision confusion"...*snort*) and can't tell some of them apart.

Interesting article on this issue at http://www.otal.umd.edu/uupractice/color/

dhogaza · 19 January 2008

The nine anti-science counties had a total of 429,413 inhabitants, slightly more than the one pro-science county - Brevard with 427,035 inhabitants. Things are not so bad as they look.

Note that Brevard County is the home of the Kennedy Space Center - the "Space Coast". Not necessarily representative of the rest of the state, I'm afraid.

Ravilyn Sanders · 19 January 2008

Jeff Webber: I don't suppose there is a way to use crosshatch patterns or something instead of colors? I'm color-blind (or as they say now.. I have "color vision confusion"...*snort*) and can't tell some of them apart.

What you want should be done by your browser, not by the webmaster. It will overwhelm a webmaster to create multiple views of the website for various levels of vision/hearing/fine motor(mouse control) impairments. Your computer and your browser should be able change the way the websites are presented in your computer to suit your tastes. There is an extension to Mozilla's Firefox browser that changes the color-map of the display to render colors in a completely different way that helps people who lack some kind of cones in their retina. If this works for you, it will improve your user experience of ALL websites, not just P'sT. If you have already tried and rejected it, sorry for wasting your time.

Stacy S. · 19 January 2008

dhogaza:
The nine anti-science counties had a total of 429,413 inhabitants, slightly more than the one pro-science county - Brevard with 427,035 inhabitants. Things are not so bad as they look.
Note that Brevard County is the home of the Kennedy Space Center - the "Space Coast". Not necessarily representative of the rest of the state, I'm afraid.

Keep in mind that these school boards (Clay County, St. Johns County) are trying to hide what they are doing from their constituants. St. Johns County SB added this resolution thing to their agenda in the last minute. (I think illegally). Clay County SB had approximately 25 speakers at their meeting - 22 pro science, 3 anti- evolution. They passed it anyway. (These resolutions in these 2 counties are not indicative of their populations, I think).

David Stanton · 19 January 2008

Stacy wrote:

"These resolutions in these 2 counties are not indicative of their populations, I think."

I think you are absolutely right. I think this nonsense is being pushed through by a bunch of religious zealots who don't really care if anyone agrees with them or not. That is probably why they are being so secretive about it.

That having been said, it really doesn't matter. Even if every single citizen in Florida voted to teach creationism in public schools, it would still be illegal and unconstitutional. Science is not a democracy and the constitution serves to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority. If any of these resolutions pass and make any difference in the classroom, there will be more law suits and the religious fanatics will lose, again.

Tailspin · 19 January 2008

In your opening colorful dot points how's about making the red dot "Resolution passed in support of religious dogma that flies in the face of reality" (or maybe just "Resolution passed in support of creationism") to make it clear that the resolution is not a good thing. Someone visiting here that's unfamiliar with this whole bugaboo might think the resolution was actually in support of science.

FL · 19 January 2008

If any of these resolutions pass and make any difference in the classroom, there will be more law suits and the religious fanatics will lose, again.

Maybe your hypothesis is correct, and maybe your hypothesis is incorrect. I hope enough Florida counties support the resolution to provide an opportunity to test your hypothesis. But honestly, it's time to register a dissenting opinion here: The people voting for the resolution are pro-science too. It's just that the term "pro-science" isn't a synonym for "pro-Darwinism". FL

Ichthyic · 19 January 2008

Maybe your hypothesis is correct, and maybe your hypothesis is incorrect.

how profound, wizard!

Ichthyic · 19 January 2008

It’s just that the term “pro-science” isn’t a synonym for “pro-Darwinism”.

actually, in the cases under discussion, it is.

also in your case.

David Stanton · 19 January 2008

FL,

Was the Dover School Board "pro-science" in your opinion? If so, an impartial judge seems to disagree with you.

And by the way, there is no such thing as "pro-Darwinism" any more than there is such a thing as "pro-Mendelism".

Science Avenger · 19 January 2008

Fl asserted: It’s just that the term “pro-science” isn’t a synonym for “pro-Darwinism”.

True, but irrelevant. Pro-science isn't a synonym for pro-Einsteinism, or pro-Wegenerism either. However, one cannot claim to be pro-science while running afoul of what 99.9% of scientists in the relevant fields have to say AND having no experimental evidence supporting one's position. As Michael Behe made clear in Dover, for ID/creationism to qualify as science, "science" must be redefined.

Eric Finn · 19 January 2008

FL: But honestly, it's time to register a dissenting opinion here: The people voting for the resolution are pro-science too. It's just that the term "pro-science" isn't a synonym for "pro-Darwinism". FL

What do you mean? Evolutionary theory (not "Darwinism") in biology is one of the established theories in science. You seem to disagree with that statement, though. What kind of "pro-science" do you propose instead? Regards Eric

PvM · 19 January 2008

Sadly enough most of those voting in favor of these resolutions do not seem to be in favor of science

When a member of the state Board of Education puts her religion before the educational needs of Florida students, she forfeits her standing as an education expert and should resign her post. Donna Callaway of the board is objecting to the state's new proposed science standards because they include the teaching of evolution as the basis of modern biology. She told the Florida Baptist Witness, a religious newspaper in Jacksonville, that evolution "should not be taught to the exclusion of other theories of the origins of life." Callaway clearly doesn't understand that there are no other scientifically grounded theories on the origins of life. Somehow Callaway, who is charged with making educational policy for the state, missed out on some basic education herself.

Source: Ignorance has no place in curriculum St Petersburg Times Editorial, Dec 10, 2007. After all there are no scientific alternatives to the theory of evolution.

FL:
If any of these resolutions pass and make any difference in the classroom, there will be more law suits and the religious fanatics will lose, again.
Maybe your hypothesis is correct, and maybe your hypothesis is incorrect. I hope enough Florida counties support the resolution to provide an opportunity to test your hypothesis. But honestly, it's time to register a dissenting opinion here: The people voting for the resolution are pro-science too. It's just that the term "pro-science" isn't a synonym for "pro-Darwinism". FL

Stacy S. · 19 January 2008

FL - Let me rephrase. 22 of the 25 people that spoke were anti- "stupid resolution".

Ichthyic · 19 January 2008

What do you mean? Evolutionary theory (not “Darwinism”) in biology

he equates the two, so don't even bother.

Stanton · 19 January 2008

FL: But honestly, it's time to register a dissenting opinion here: The people voting for the resolution are pro-science too. It's just that the term "pro-science" isn't a synonym for "pro-Darwinism". FL

You refuse to realize that biologists do not use the term "Darwinism" to refer to Evolutionary Biology, that "Intelligent Design" is not science, and thus, the term "pro-science" will never ever be a synonym for "pro-ID" in this dimension, ever. Unless, of course, you can demonstrate how one can do science with Intelligent Design. Then again, FL, Armageddon will have come and gone and come again before you get the brains and backbone to demonstrate to us how one can do science with Intelligent Design.

David B. Benson · 19 January 2008

Small point --- While there are various hypotheses regarding abiogenesis (origin of life), there are no scientific theories (as of yet).

The theory of evolution is a theory about origins of species, etc., not origins of life.

Eric Finn · 19 January 2008

David B. Benson: Small point --- While there are various hypotheses regarding abiogenesis (origin of life), there are no scientific theories (as of yet). The theory of evolution is a theory about origins of species, etc., not origins of life.

Indeed. Evolutionary theory in biology does not account for the origin of the universe either. Regards Eric

Nigel D · 19 January 2008

But honestly, it’s time to register a dissenting opinion here: The people voting for the resolution are pro-science too. It’s just that the term “pro-science” isn’t a synonym for “pro-Darwinism”.
— FL

Yet again, FL (does "FL" stand for ****ing loony, BTW?), you demonstrate that you have failed to comprehend the many responses that your ill-informed posts stimulate. (1) There is no such thing as "Darwinism". If you disagree, you will need to define excactly what you mean when you use the term, with reference to real-world examples (i.e. evidence to support your assertions).
(2) If, when you use the word "Darwinism", you actually mean modern evolutionary theory (MET), then, actually, yes, "pro-science" is synonymous with "pro-MET", because MET is an example of good science.
(3) People voting for resolutions that discourage or dilute the teaching of MET are, almost exclusively, ill-informed religious fundies. They have no interest in learning what is or is not good science. If they did, they would have done so. Probably, for the most part, they have accepted the lies of their religious leaders and are content to remain ignorant of the truth.
(4) The people proposing these resolutions are either ill-informed religious fundies that have fallen for one of the scams of the ID movement, or they are themselves con artists.
(5) Anyone who claims that MET does not represent the highest-quality science is lying. This includes you, FL, since you have had your ill-informed drivel dissected on this blog sufficiently frequently that you can no longer claim ignorance as an excuse for repeating the lies of the creationists.
(6) Anyone who claims that there are genuine scientific alternatives to MET has either (a) not done any independent investigation of the issue; or (b) is lying. In fact, there are no scientific alternatives to MET. You are wrong, FL. You have had this pointed out many, many times in previous threads on this blog. You have utterly failed to address any of the substantive and genuine objections to the claims you have made, and yet you persist in making them. By any standard, that is bare-faced lying.

David Stanton · 19 January 2008

FL,

Well, if the people voting for these resolutions are so "pro-science", then I guess you can show us the resolutions they have proposed to teach the controversies in math, physics and chemistry.

You can always tell a hypocrite and a poser by their deeds. Why aren't these people out there getting funding for textbooks and laboratory equipment if science education is so important to them? Why aren't they doing all of the other things that could demonstrate their dedication to science instead of picking on one scientific theory that they happen to have a have a problem with?

David B. Benson · 19 January 2008

Nigel D --- Might not be bare-faced lying. Might be simply too stupid. Difficult to tell when there are only the low band-width communications via this medium.

Paul Burnett · 19 January 2008

David Stanton: Why aren't they doing all of the other things that could demonstrate their dedication to science instead of picking on one scientific theory that they happen to have a have a problem with?

Read the Wedge Document ( http://www.aclu.org/evolution/legal/wedgedoc.pdf ) again, David. Their plan is to start with destroying evolution, and then biology, and then geology and astronomy and paleontology and all of science, and then civilization - all because it disagrees with their Bronze Age creation mythology.

Frank J · 19 January 2008

But honestly, it’s time to register a dissenting opinion here: The people voting for the resolution are pro-science too. It’s just that the term “pro-science” isn’t a synonym for “pro-Darwinism”.
— FL

You people, and by that I mean everyone from the most die-hard YECs to IDers who admit common descent, can't seem to make any point anymore without using the word "Darwinism." Well, sorry to break it to you, but pro-science is a synonym for pro-evolutionary biology, if not a synonym for "pro-(insert your caricature)." Those voting for the resolution are pro-misrepresenting science

Frank J · 19 January 2008

Well, if the people voting for these resolutions are so “pro-science”, then I guess you can show us the resolutions they have proposed to teach the controversies in math, physics and chemistry.
— David Stanton

Well, if they haven't, by golly I'll do it for them. To paraphrase FL, the term “pro-science” isn’t a synonym for “pro-Benzenism”. ;-)

Nigel D · 20 January 2008

Nigel D — Might not be bare-faced lying. Might be simply too stupid. Difficult to tell when there are only the low band-width communications via this medium.
— David B. Benson

Sadly, I am compelled to disagree with you. Over the past year or so (maybe more), FL has cropped up on many threads here on PT. (S)he has made many ignorant and ill-informed claims about science, and about IDC. FL has had these errors and logical failures pointed out time and time again. FL has never even attempted to address the genuine and substantive criticisms of his/her position. FL has never even attempted to substantiate the pro-IDC claims (s)he makes. By repeating things that (s)he knows to be wrong, FL is lying. By continuing to do so after this has repeatedly been pointed out to him/her, I think we can justifiably call that bare-faced lying. Stupidity and/or ignorance are no excuse.

Frank J · 20 January 2008

Nigel and David,

My 2c on FL, after my usual caveats:

1. It's impossible to fully know anyone else's private beliefs.
2. I admit to being the one most convinced of dishonesty when a "creationist" shows signs of privately knowing that we're right. 3. What follows is my personal speculation:

FL seems to be a borderline case, but just on the side of being a victim of Morton's Demon rather than a budding scam artist. It took several tries, but FL answered my questions about which creationist position (s)he favors. It was YEC, but with unsolicited caveats indicating clear political alliance to OECs and "don't ask, don't tell" IDers. Sure, it could be that (s)he just favors a bit more direct sell of YEC (the biggest market for anti-evolution pseudoscience), so I could be wrong here, as well as when I suspect dishonesty of other "creationists".

Nevertheless, I also think that even the ID leaders who have me convinced that they privately know that we're right about evolution (and that their "Darwinism" is a deliberate caricature) do honestly think that they need to get the audience to believe fairy tales in order to win the culture war. But because those fairy tales come in mutually contradictory versions, none of which holds up to critical analysis, they deem it too risky to promote them directly.

In any case, to continue my thoughts (from another thread?) on how we could better portray anti-evolution activism to the public (i.e. minimize foot-shooting), I think that we should simply avoid speculating what the activists and their followers believe or understand and focus on what they promote, and how they promote it.

David Stanton · 20 January 2008

Paul wrote:

"Their plan is to start with destroying evolution, and then biology, and then geology and astronomy and paleontology and all of science, and then civilization - all because it disagrees with their Bronze Age creation mythology."

Yea, that will sure prove they're "pro-science".

If you're right and these people are motivated by the wedge document, that pretty much proves they cannot possibly be "pro-science". After all, the wedge document is specifically against "materialism" and "naturalism" which are the methodological basis of real science. It is not really possible to be more anti-science than that. However, because of the stunning successes of science, because of it's tremendous impact on our lives and well-being, and because of our now almost complete reliance of on science, no one in their right mind would dare come out and say they were actually anti-science. So liars like FL try to persuade people that they are "pro-science" as if giving them that label will get them some credability.

I honestly don't know if FL is really lying or just plain stupid. I honestly don't care. He/she made demonstrably false statements that I and others have shown to be wrong. He has not responded to one criticism of his/her position. Who cares what he/she really believes anyway? If you are "pro-science" do science and teach others to do it. In the words of the fairly good book - "by their deeds yea shall know them".

Ravilyn Sanders · 20 January 2008

Frank J: Nevertheless, I also think that even the ID leaders who have me convinced that they privately know that we're right about evolution (and that their "Darwinism" is a deliberate caricature) do honestly think that they need to get the audience to believe fairy tales in order to win the culture war.

I agree with your assesment of Larry Farfarman (in various aliases) and the leaders of ID movement. I also think we are fighting millions of years of evolution. We know that almost all genetic mutations are deleterious and only a very very tiny fraction is beneficial. Similarly almost all unorthodox beliefs and actions are also deleterious to our small band of hunter gatherer ancestors. When an Australopithecan parent says "Don't walk too close to the (crocodile infested) lake shore", the child that obeys without question is likely to survive and the band that promotes unconditional obedience is likely to be more successful. I think, (I am no biologist or a psychologist) ID believers feel the same apprehension and the knot of fear in their stomachs the Australopithecan parent felt when their child disobeyed them and started playing on the lake shore thumbing their noses at him/her.

I think that we should simply avoid speculating what the activists and their followers believe or understand and focus on what they promote, and how they promote it.

I see three kinds of ID believers and pushers. Kind C is the children who obediently stayed away from the shore. They believe in orthodoxy, their family and tribal elders. C for children. The next kind is P, (for parents), who are worried about the rise of unorthodoxy in the next generation and are genuinely concerned about it. The third kind is L, (for leaders) those whose main job is to codify and remember (and later document) the orthodoxy. And more importantly to enforce it. This class, naturally, exploits the obedience of C and the apprehensions of P to its own advantage. We should have different strategies aimed at these classes. Explain to C that there are no crocodiles in this lake shore. Explain to P the shenanigans of L. For L, deny the easy and unrestricted access they have to P & C, make them work for the benefits they get and eventually as the base of P & C shrinks, L will shrink too. May be this is all well known among the activists who have invested far more time and energy to this cause than I.

FL · 20 January 2008

Nigel D thinks that:

There is no such thing as “Darwinism”

. But as usual, Nigel D is wrong. The late Ernst Mayr explains:

Darwinism rejects all supernatural phenomena and causations. The theory of evolution by natural selection explains the adaptedness and diversity of the world solely materialistically. --Mayr, "Darwin's Influence on Modern Thought", SciAm July 2000

And notice: Mayr's statement answers your inquiry about defining Darwinism. Here, he identifies Darwinism as the theory of evolution by natural selection. Now, OTHER evolutionists simply use the term "Darwinism" without defining the term at all, and of course you totally approve of their failure to define the term. Example:

Thursday, Feb. 9 (2006)-- "Where Do We Go From Here? The Future of Darwinism in American Society," at the Museum of the Earth, 10 a.m.-11:30 a.m. This panel discussion, moderated by Cornell Provost Biddy Martin, will examine the impact of the recent Dover decision on the future of Darwinism.

At any rate, despite your very extreme religious devotion to MET, I would again re-iterate that you don't have to be pro-Darwinism to be pro-science. You can have doubts about evolution and evolutionary claims, you can even specify that it's okay to teach about problems, weaknesses and blankspots WRT to evolutionary claims in science classrooms, and still be pro-science. You can even in fact be pro-Design (let's define "Design" here as "Intelligent Design") and still be pro-science. In fact, join the crowd. ***** David Stanton said something interesting as well.

If you’re right and these people are motivated by the wedge document, that pretty much proves they cannot possibly be “pro-science”. After all, the wedge document is specifically against “materialism” and “naturalism” which are the methodological basis of real science.

Therefore, if a person can show that David Stanton's second sentence is NOT TRUE, that will immediately falsify his first sentence as well. Sweet! So here you go:

"There's nothing inherent in the scientific enterprise that requires restricting it to natural causes or natural explanations only. Science is about what is testable, not necessarily what is naturalistic." --Dr. John Millam, May 2005. *** "To insist that postulations of past agency are inherently unscientific in the historical sciences (where the express purpose of such inquiry is to determine what happened in the past) suggests we know that no personal agent could have existed prior to humans. Not only is such an assumption intrinsically unverifiable, it seems entirely gratuitous in the absence of some non-circular account of why science should pre-suppose metaphysical naturalism." --philosopher of science Dr. Stephen C. Meyer, "Methodological Equivalence of Design and Descent." *** "For instance, it is quite common to see methodological naturalism defined as a requirement that science be restricted just to natural concepts, resources, data, and theories, that being interpreted to mean that whether or not philosophical naturalism is true, science must proceed as if it is. (That, for instance, is the position of the National Center for Science Education - or at least of its director.) But the problem here is that (as Boyle pointed out three plus centuries ago) nature in a created universe might well - indeed most likely would - be very different from nature in a random, chance universe. Thus, the typical equating of a restriction to the natural with proceeding as if philosophical naturalism is true, turns out to beg some deeper questions. Most of the actual arguments for methodological naturalism being a definitive, unchallengeable rule of science seem to me to be problematic." --philsopher of science Dr. Del Ratzsch, "Science and Design" interview (2006) http://www.galilean-library.org/ratzsch.html

So, now we see the real deal. David's claim of 'materialism' and 'naturalism' being the methodological basis of "real science" is actually refuted! The scientific method defines science, not the religion of materialism/naturalism. ***** So hang in there, pro-science non-darwinist Floridians! Win or lose, you're doing the right thing. FL :)

Cheryl Shepherd-Adams · 20 January 2008

FL, would you mind citing the peer-reviewed, published research which does not rely on methodological naturalism?

Thanks in advance!

[got an 'operation timed out' message while trying to post, sorry if this is a double]

Richard Simons · 20 January 2008

FL
You keep rattling on about the problems and weaknesses of the theory of evolution, but you never tell us what they are.

So how about it? Steel yourself. Gird yourself for battle! Give us a list of what you perceive to be its weaknesses and what you think should be taught in Florida schools. Now is your chance to have an impact as you seem to be the only person coming here who is in favour of these resolutions from the county school boards. Or will you be forever content to use you peashooter from the sidelines?

Bill Gascoyne · 20 January 2008

At the risk of being accused of "quote mining":

You can have doubts about evolution and evolutionary claims, you can even specify that it’s okay to teach about problems, weaknesses and blankspots WRT to evolutionary claims in science classrooms, and still be pro-science.
— FL

Please cite examples of any such legitimate (as in "recognized by mainstream science") weaknesses.

Therefore, if a person can show that David Stanton’s second sentence is NOT TRUE, that will immediately falsify his first sentence as well.
— FL

Ah, scientific proof via debating techniques. Not legitimate.

The scientific method defines science, not the religion of materialism/naturalism.
— FL

And accusing science of being religion, or at the very least confusing methodological and philosophical naturalism/materialism. Standard, boiler-plate creationist tripe. We've seen it for years, it's just as tiresome as ever. The fact that it still convinces school boards leads to another eternal truth: "God made the Idiot for practice, and then He made the School Board." Mark Twain (1835-1910)

Cheryl Shepherd-Adams · 20 January 2008

Here's a consequence of overturning the established dogma . . .

Barry Marshall and Robin Warren, Against prevailing dogmas, you discovered that one of the most common and important diseases of mankind, peptic ulcer disease, is caused by a bacterial infection of the stomach. Your discovery has meant that this frequently chronic and disabling condition can now be permanently cured by antibiotics to the benefit of millions of patients. Your pioneering work has also stimulated research all around the world to better understand the link between chronic infections and diseases such as cancer. On behalf of the Nobel Assembly at Karolinska Institutet, I wish to convey to you our warmest congratulations, and I now ask you to step forward to receive the Nobel Prize from the hands of His Majesty the King.

. . . but then again, they had actual data to support their hypothesis (ibid):

Robin Warren, in his professional role as a clinical pathologist, observed spiral-shaped bacteria in tissue specimens from the stomachs of many patients who had undergone gastroscopy. These bacteria were abundantly present, associated with the epithelium of the stomach and shielded from dangerous hydrochloric acid by a thick mucous layer. Warren saw that the underlying mucous membrane always showed signs of inflammation and therefore suggested that the spiral-shaped bacteria caused gastritis. Barry Marshall became interested in Warren’s findings and decided to culture the bacterium. Many fruitless attempts were made. During the Easter 1982 holiday, the agar plates were left in the incubator by mistake, and when they were inspected after the holiday they contained numerous colonies consisting of the same bacterium that Warren had observed under his microscope. Soon it became clear that a whole new bacterial genus had been isolated. It was eventually named Helicobacter pylori.

Were Marshall & Warren the victims of some Evil Conspiracy^TM trying to suppress their data?* Nope. Did they go whining to the press when their ideas were met with skepticism? Nope. Did they distribute glossy 4-color leaflets to school board members to try to get the biology curriculum changed? Nope. Did they do science? Yep. Did they rely on methodological naturalism? You betcha. So, FL, I'm really looking forward to seeing that list:

FL, would you mind citing the peer-reviewed, published research which does not rely on methodological naturalism?

After all, if Florida science teachers are expected to teach a scientific method that isn't bound by methodological naturalism, don't you think they should be able to show some examples of such research to their students? [*insert favorite quote from RWOS]

Frank J · 20 January 2008

We should have different strategies aimed at these classes.
— Ravilyn Sanders

Exactly! And I like your 3-tier model better than my 2-tier one. If by "activists" you mean on the pro-science side, this may be well-known, but it is very poorly implemented. Lumping those who oppose evolution in one big "creationists" category is part of the "foot-shooting" I refer too. Of course, unlike the anti-evolution activists, whose different strategies for different audiences send contradictory messages, such as whether their opposition to evolution is religiously motivated or not, we need to be consistent to all audiences. While some individual opponents of ID/creationism may be motivated by religion - and that includes some devout Christians as well as the usual atheist suspects - what unites us all is an interest in good science and good science education. Arguments that are tailored to the general public (including the C "kind" of evolution opponent) should emphasize that we know that being conservative about what is taught and investigated is counterintuitive. Most nonscientists, including many (most?) who have no problem with evolution, see science not as "necessarily conservative" but as closed-minded, biased or both. Unfortunately, anti-evolution activists are winning that war of words without hardly trying.

Science Avenger · 20 January 2008

FL said: Nigel D thinks that "There is no such thing as “Darwinism”" But as usual, Nigel D is wrong. The late Ernst Mayr explains:

Just once I'd like to see a creationist defend his views without quoting anyone who is dead. You guys need to learn that unlike religion, science progresses and changes, so quotes from authorities (and cherry picked ones at that) are not forever binding, if they are binding at all. It is a simple fact of American political life that modern evolutionary theory is referred to as "Darwinism" by creationists because 1) they want to poison the well by making it appear to be just another faith-based religious view, and 2) this allows them to give the appearance of arguing science by attacking Charles Darwin personally, or discussing Darwin's errors as if they were relevant to MET. All the posthumous quotes in the world won't change that.

Fl asserted: You can have doubts about evolution and evolutionary claims, you can even specify that it’s okay to teach about problems, weaknesses and blankspots WRT to evolutionary claims in science classrooms, and still be pro-science.

You cannot be knowledgably pro-science and do so. Oh sure, you can be ignorantly pro-science and yammer about nonexistent problems and weaknesses of MET, just like you can be ignorantly pro-balanced budget while promoting supply-side tax cuts. But the fact is there are no problems, weaknesses, or blankspots to MET. There are only problems, weaknesses and blankspots in the knowledge of creationists. We could talk about that in science class if you like.

David Stanton · 20 January 2008

Nice try Fl. Conflating philisophical naturalism with methodological naturalism won't hack it. And quoting people who doubt methodologiocal naturalism won't prove anything either. So can you give just one example of a truly scientific explanation that cannot be tested empirically using methodological naturalism? Thought not.

As for your logical fallacy, proving my second statment wrong would still not do anything in the way of proving that these people are "pro-science". They can still be anti-science even if they never heard of the wedge document. The point is that they don't do science, they don't accept the findings of science, they don't teach science and they don't want anyone else to teach real science either. They can only be "pro-science" in the sense that they define science for themselves for their own neferious purposes.

Personally, I really don't care what their motivation is. The only way to be "pro-science" is to do real science, publish the results and earn the right to get your ideas in textooks. Passing meaningless resolutions that demonstrate your ignorance is counterproductive and borders of child abuse.

JGB · 20 January 2008

You haven't paid very close attention FL in just the relatively short time I've been around. Your appeal to the authority of the good doctor fails because it makes a false distinction. Testable explanations are naturalistic in the modern sense. This is why physics can craft all manner of forces and particles. To the superficial mind it sounds like magic, but it is quite clearly not. On the flipside most people of faith explicitly reject the notion that their religious principles are subject to experimental testing. Logically of course there can be no experimental test of a mysterious omnipotent God because it is always a logical possibility that it was done differently. This is not any kind of new thinking or break through.

Matthew Lowry · 20 January 2008

Eric Finn:
David B. Benson: The theory of evolution is a theory about origins of species, etc., not origins of life.
Indeed. Evolutionary theory in biology does not account for the origin of the universe either. Regards Eric

Yeah, that is called the big bang cosmology. Of course, the creationists want to trash that aspect of modern science as well.

Matthew Lowry · 20 January 2008

Eric Finn:
David B. Benson: The theory of evolution is a theory about origins of species, etc., not origins of life.
Indeed. Evolutionary theory in biology does not account for the origin of the universe either. Regards Eric

Yeah, that is called the big bang cosmology. Of course, the creationists want to trash that aspect of modern science as well.

Matthew Lowry · 20 January 2008

Eric Finn:
David B. Benson: The theory of evolution is a theory about origins of species, etc., not origins of life.
Indeed. Evolutionary theory in biology does not account for the origin of the universe either. Regards Eric

Yeah, that is called the big bang cosmology. Of course, the creationists want to trash that aspect of modern science as well.

PvM · 20 January 2008

Few if any of those opposed to the very reasonable science standards seem to be pro-science, let alone non-darwinist. However I want to reserve this thread for real discussions. Any future attempts to feed the trolls or be a troll will be dealt with appropriately by moving the content to the bathroom wall.

So hang in there, pro-science non-darwinist Floridians! Win or lose, you’re doing the right thing.