Teaching evolution in the 21st century America

Nova is out to lunch on the teaching of evolution. Even Carl Woese opposes teaching the theory in the lower grades.

As a teacher I happen to oppose teaching quantum mechanics to the lower grades (elementary) as well. That has nothing to do with it's rightness. It's called pedagogy and development. Talking to someone who just learned how to tell time on a clock about a difficult concept like deep time is a waste of time.

William Wallace: Nova is out to lunch on the teaching of evolution. Even Carl Woese opposes teaching the theory in the lower grades.

One of the biggest problems leading to the crowded science courses in high school is the lack of good science in the elementary and middle schools. The crowded schedule comes from having to pack in ideas that could have been developed in the earlier grades. It is very difficult to find elementary and middle school teachers who aren’t themselves uncomfortable with math and science.

Another issue is the apparent belief that classes at any level must be directed to the bottom of the class in order to bring along the “slow” learners. Many of these “slow” learners are falling behind because they do not have proper exposure to an external world at home or in school. They have been left to wallow in their inner selves without proper guidance about the external world in which they exist.

There are literally hundreds of topics and techniques that can introduce some of the fundamental ideas that show up in modern “advanced” science. These can be brought to the attention of young children in a way that is both natural and fun.

For example, the vibrating strings of musical instruments and wave motions in water contain many of concepts that are part of quantum mechanics. Expanding ripples on a pond can lead to the ideas relating to inverse-square-law behavior of sound and light as well as the notion of an expanding universe.

The growth of crystals, snowflakes, icicles and stalactites include ideas that help understand the concepts of natural selection and evolution. Looking at old buildings and monuments and comparing them with new and modern ones begins to give children a sense of time, history and change that goes beyond their inner sense of these.

Any visit to a good science museum during the summer can help a teacher find dozens of ideas suitable for children.

Unfortunately, most of the education of elementary and middle school teachers does not contain enough exposure to common physical phenomena. Much of it is directed to the inner life of children which, while necessary for the understanding of children, detracts from a rich external world from which children can learn and grow. Most children, if they are not autistic in some way, respond quite easily and naturally to phenomena in the external world. Guiding them to subtle details that can stimulate their growth and curiosity should be something for all teachers to strive for.

If these kinds of thoughts and activities took place more naturally in the lower grades, it would be much easier and more natural to make the transition to the ideas underlying modern physics, chemistry, and biology. Enlightened families are often able to do this in spite of the schools, and the results are spectacular. I have known families with children who had Downs Syndrome who brought their children to a high level of functionality and curiosity by using these methods.

This by itself would go a long way to reducing the need to constantly wrangle with the anti-science fundamentalists about curriculum and evolution.

I don't know. Am I right, to any degree, that the viewpoint is naive, or am I just jealous that I wasn't involved in developing it?

"generating strategies for responding to a parent or school board insisting that intelligent design be included in a biology curriculum."

This hasn't been the anti-evolution movement strategy for years now. They'll insist that they want evolution taught, don't want ID taught, and then ask you in an insulting manner what you're afraid of. Shouldn't there be a stated goal of rejecting the disingenuous "critical analysis of weaknesses in evolution" language?

We teach geology, biology, etc. in the lower grades. Why shouldn't evolutionary theory be taught in the lower grades? The fundamental tenet of evolutionary theory—that all life on earth is descended from a universal common ancestor—is easily statable in a single sentence. An overview of the evidence supporting that assertion is will within the grasp of elementary schoolchildren.

If sixth graders can be taught binomial expansions, they can be taught at least the rudiments of evolutionary theory.

Just like we teach math and literature in lower grades, why not teach evolution. Of course, math is simplified to additions, multiplication etc and literature to learning the alphabet and reading simple books.

It does not have to be an all or nothing.

Now that I've looked at it briefly, this is very counter productive. I guarantee you that teachers, admins, and politicians looking for a "balanced compromise" will use parts of this for classroom presentations "presenting both sides". These lesson plans are always used to implicitly, or explicitly, leave the impression that there is alternative science showing evolution science is in error. This will be used as just another strategy to get this crap into the classroom.

Nice appeal to authority. What are you afraid Nova may teach? Is this your best argument? Quote mining a single evolutionist?

This looks interesting - thanks for posting this, PvM.

Mike Elzinga: It is interesting that WW keeps linking to his blog. He is like a parasite attempting to leverage his site by attaching himself to a site run by people who have IQ’s that are orders of magnitude larger than his.

PvM wrote: Nice appeal to authority. What are you afraid Nova may teach? Is this your best argument? Quote mining a single evolutionist?

Sorry, WW, but cockiness and self confidence doesn't cut it here. You have been accused of quote mining, which is a form of lying. It is easy to disprove, so dispove it already. If you can't, then stop lying to us, oh moralistic one.

Like clockwork. “Quote mining”. That was unexpected. LOL. I am slowly but surely reverse engineering the Panda’s Thumb “flowchart for logical[sic] argument” (read: evolutionist talking points).

— WW

PvM:

Like clockwork. “Quote mining”. That was unexpected. LOL. I am slowly but surely reverse engineering the Panda’s Thumb “flowchart for logical[sic] argument” (read: evolutionist talking points).

— WW

In other words, you have nothing of substance to offer and rather quote mine Woese as if his opinion is somehow relevant? I assume that you have no opinions of your own here?

Frank B: Sorry, WW, but cockiness and self confidence doesn't cut it here. You have been accused of quote mining, which is a form of lying. It is easy to disprove, so dispove it already. If you can't, then stop lying to us, oh moralistic one.

PvM asked: I assume that you have no opinions of your own here?

non sequitur: This by itself would go a long way to reducing the need to constantly wrangle with the anti-science fundamentalists about curriculum and evolution.

William Wallace:

PvM wrote: Nice appeal to authority. What are you afraid Nova may teach? Is this your best argument? Quote mining a single evolutionist?

Like clockwork. "Quote mining". That was unexpected. LOL. I am slowly but surely reverse engineering the Panda's Thumb "flowchart for logical[sic] argument" (read: evolutionist talking points).

Maybe one day it will even become a respectable thing to teach. The status of biological instruction, especially in the high schools, disturbs Woese. "Biology is poorly taught in general at the high school level," he says, referring to the polarization of evolution by the scientifically heterodox. "Scientifically, the matter is simple. The essence of biology is evolution, and biology should be taught from an evolutionary perspective. Yet, although evolution is covered to some extent in high school biology courses, it bears the scarlet letter and is taught in a guarded fashion, embalmed in caveats. The reason for this is obvious, as are the pressures on textbook publishers."

Kids love dino pics. So an introduction to the history of the earth could actually be taught quite early on. Including a tiny bit of biological evolution.

It is peculiar that WW thinks the issue of dealing with fundamentalist anti-evolutionists is a “non sequitur” of some sort.

A fact, to which anyone reading the posts on this site can attest, is that the fundamentalists who splatter their crap here never ever demonstrate that they have any insight into the mind of any deity or that anything in their sectarian dogma is true. They arrogantly expect they are exempt from demonstrating or offering any evidence for any of their claims, and then they go on to demand replies to their claims.

They enjoy freedom of religion and tax exemption for their sectarian dogmas (protected by the Constitution), yet they constantly emerge from their churches and interfere with the secular educations of other people’s children. They live in and are protected by a secular society, governed by secular laws and a tax supported law enforcement and a military composed of people who have given their lives and made great sacrifices.

Yet they continually violate the rights of others wanting obtain a high quality secular education in order to live in a real world with the skills and knowledge needed to navigate such a world. For well over a century they have politically interfered with science education in the public schools without ever demonstrating they have a proper understanding of science or that they know anything about their so-called deity.

For centuries they have fought and killed each other over who has the correct dogma, but they never recognize or admit this as evidence that they know nothing about deities.

What would constitute crime and fraudulent activity in any non-sectarian group is, in their case, passed over and exempt from prosecution because of “free exercise of religion”. Street bullies who threaten or beat up kids returning from school with books under their arms can be prosecuted and thrown in jail. Fundamentalists, who continually threaten and disrupt school boards, teachers, and politicians in order to prevent modern science from finding its way into the classroom, get a free pass.

What is more, they can form institutes that employ career propagandists who spend millions of dollars quote-mining, distorting, campaigning, interfering, confusing, and all the while running up the costs of administering secular education by interfering with the administrative and legislative bodies set up to do this. This run-up in cost is money paid out by other people who want nothing to do with sectarian dogma, but simply want a good secular education. And these propagandists are answerable to no one.

Where do these sectarian propagandists think they get the “authority” to tell career scientists and experts what is and what isn’t true? How does someone who has never demonstrated any special insight into anything demand a say in the secular educations of strangers? Only profound ignorance, hatred, arrogance, and a political goal of a sectarian theocracy can provide such a drive. And only a complacent secular society can permit it.

Thus, there has to be the courts, Panda’s Thumb and other organizations, supported by knowledgeable scientists and secular society, to throw the spotlight on this fraud.

So, like it or not, WW is now being profiled (along with FL and the other scam artists who practice their shtick here). If lurkers like what they see, they are free to go join his church.

William Wallace: Nova is out to lunch on the teaching of evolution. Even Carl Woese opposes teaching the theory in the lower grades.

The only problem that this would have would be the religious children and their parents. The truth is evolution needs to be taught and taught more often. There is no problem with everything coming from a common ancestor though religious people would claim that ancestor is Adam and not apes. That is the only thing that the theists will never get.

Mike Elzinga sabre rattled: ...So, like it or not, WW is now being profiled (along with FL and the other scam artists who practice their shtick here)...

1. I agree that churches should not be tax exempt. But then again, as a conservative, I think taxes should be much lower than they are now.
2. This country was founded by Christians.
3. Freedom of religion is recognized in the Bill of Rights, as is Freedom of Speech, the right to petition the government (including school boards).A republican form of government and freedom of speech allows non-scientists to have a say at school board meetings. If you don't appreciate government recognition of freedom of speech, many other countries that suppress it are available and willing to accept .
4. The courts should not be deciding what is and what is not science, especially if deciding judges have to resort to plagiarizing the ACLU. I think PZ Myers agrees with everything up to the comma, but I could be "quote mining".
5. I know you're happy with Judge Jones, but what if Judge Jones had been a conservative who could think of and write his own decisions? Be careful what you wish for.
6. As Ann Coulter wrote in Goddless, "The Darwinists have saved the secular sanctity of their temples: the public schools. They didn't win on science, persuasion, or the evidence. They won the way liberals always win: by finding a court to hand them everything they want on a sliver platter.^{(Coulter 2006 Godless p. 200)}
7. To plagiarize and "quotemine" Ann Coulter and the Beatles, treating doubts about evolution as religious heresy isn't going to make it with anybody any how.

I'm starting to think the worst sin of creationists might be how damn boring they are.

I'm curious. How could Judge Jones have ruled on the case without defining science?

And I'm confused by the Coulter quote. Did the "Darwinists" choose the Bush-appointed Judge Jones? Did Jones hand things out on a silver platter or did he simply follow the "Lemon Test"?

Yeah, WW is getting boring. It's the same old "Judge Jones shouldn't decide if ID is science" rot. William, your sources of info are terrible. The defense asked Judge Jones to decide that. You are making a fool of yourself in so many ways. The Discovery Inst. is making you 'tapdance, monkey'.
Your quote of the Beatles is sooooo ironic. You are like the person carrying the book of Chairman Mau, dogma, dogma dogma.

Dan: ...Would you please tell me where you found the mention of "lower grades"? Thanks in advance, Dan

William Wallace babbled: treating doubts about evolution as religious heresy isn’t going to make it with anybody any how

"Hatred of Christianity"!?!!?! What complete bullshit.

Hey, PVM, are you motivated by hatred of Christianity?

People who understand evolutionary science want it taught because those who have actually done the work see it as the best explanation of life on the planet.

The fact that your fable disagrees with reality is just tough darts for you. Nobody cares.

The fight isn't against Christianity, it's against bullshitters like you, William Wallace, who more often than not, are a particularly intolerant, arrogant, and ignorant minority of Christians. If you were Muslim or Hindu or Shinto, and still a bullshit artist, we'd still be fighting against you.

I agree that churches should not be tax exempt. But then again, as a conservative, I think taxes should be much lower than they are now.

This country was founded by Christians.

If you don’t appreciate government recognition of freedom of speech, many other countries that suppress it are available and willing to accept .

The courts should not be deciding what is and what is not science, especially if deciding judges have to resort to plagiarizing the ACLU.

I know you’re happy with Judge Jones, but what if Judge Jones had been a conservative who could think of and write his own decisions? Be careful what you wish for.

As Ann Coulter wrote in Goddless, …

Steve: I'm curious. How could Judge Jones have ruled on the case without defining science? And I'm confused by the Coulter quote. Did the "Darwinists" choose the Bush-appointed Judge Jones? Did Jones hand things out on a silver platter or did he simply follow the "Lemon Test"?

Oh, by deciding “Hey, this is not a federal issue. It’s a school board issue.” Federalism. Yes, it’s practically dead. But it had merit.

PvM wrote: Thank God we have smarter judges that you who realize that these issues extend to state matters as well.

“Dear God. I’d like to report a bug…”

The courts should not be deciding what is and what is not science, especially if deciding judges have to resort to plagiarizing the ACLU. I think PZ Myers agrees with everything up to the comma, but I could be “quote mining”.

If you don’t appreciate government recognition of freedom of speech, many other countries that suppress it are available and willing to accept .

As Ann Coulter wrote in Goddless, “The Darwinists have saved the secular sanctity of their temples: the public schools. They didn’t win on science, persuasion, or the evidence. They won the way liberals always win: by finding a court to hand them everything they want on a sliver platter.(Coulter 2006 Godless p. 200)

Good lord, what kind of fool relies on a psycho like ANN COULTER quotes to win an argument?

A hint: don't depend on Coulter to tell you what science, persuasion or evidence is, unless you truly *want* to be lied to.

Yes, quoting Ann Coulter as an expert is even more a folly than believing that Woese's word somehow is the decisive and final word on whether or not we should teach evolution in our schools.

Thank God for that. Although God must have a buggy day when He created Ann Coulter...

William Wallace:

Dan: ...Would you please tell me where you found the mention of "lower grades"? Thanks in advance, Dan

Dan, see the "Keim, Brandon" source at the article I link to above.

Dan:

William Wallace: Nova is out to lunch on the teaching of evolution. Even Carl Woese opposes teaching the theory in the lower grades.

I’m sorry, William, but I’ve looked through the Nova site and I find no reference to “teaching the theory in the lower grades”. Specific grade level is not mentioned, but it seems oriented to high schools. Would you please tell me where you found the mention of “lower grades”? Thanks in advance, Dan

William Wallace:

PvM wrote: Thank God we have smarter judges that you who realize that these issues extend to state matters as well.

Shakes head. Walks away. Gets on knees. "Dear God. I'd like to report a bug..."

Meanwhile, having a flowchart that says “when stumped, allege quote mining. If quote not mined, dismiss as irrelevant, or the rantings of a senior scientist, etc. This doesn’t pass for scientific reasoning. It is propagandizing. Just be honest.

— William Wallace

Such a shame that someone with the name William Wallace is being so stupid and attempting to perpetuate a tyrannical hold on people.

A hint: don’t depend on Coulter to tell you what science, persuasion or evidence is, unless you truly *want* to be lied to.

— Langdon Alger

I agree that churches should not be tax exempt. But then again, as a conservative, I think taxes should be much lower than they are now.

— William Wallace

This country was founded by Christians.

Freedom of religion is recognized in the Bill of Rights, as is Freedom of Speech, the right to petition the government (including school boards).A republican form of government and freedom of speech allows non-scientists to have a say at school board meetings.

If you don’t appreciate government recognition of freedom of speech, many other countries that suppress it are available and willing to accept.

The courts should not be deciding what is and what is not science,

especially if deciding judges have to resort to plagiarizing the ACLU.

...I know you’re happy with Judge Jones, but what if Judge Jones had been a conservative who could think of and write his own decisions? Be careful what you wish for.

As Ann Coulter wrote in Goddless,

“The Darwinists have saved the secular sanctity of their temples: the public schools. They didn’t win on science, persuasion, or the evidence. They won the way liberals always win: by finding a court to hand them everything they want on a sliver platter.(Coulter 2006 Godless p. 200)

To plagiarize and “quotemine” Ann Coulter and the Beatles, treating doubts about evolution as religious heresy isn’t going to make it with anybody any how.

William Wallace:

PvM wrote: Thank God we have smarter judges tha[n] you who realize that these issues extend to state matters as well.

Shakes head. Walks away. Gets on knees. "Dear God. I'd like to report a bug..."

Mike: I don't know. Am I right, to any degree, that the viewpoint is naive, or am I just jealous that I wasn't involved in developing it? "generating strategies for responding to a parent or school board insisting that intelligent design be included in a biology curriculum." This hasn't been the anti-evolution movement strategy for years now. They'll insist that they want evolution taught, don't want ID taught, and then ask you in an insulting manner what you're afraid of. Shouldn't there be a stated goal of rejecting the disingenuous "critical analysis of weaknesses in evolution" language?

I would also like to point out that even before the "liberals" won in court they had already won by taking their case to the people of Dover, who voted out the entire slate of creationists from the board and replaced them with people who cared about their children getting a good education.

We have seen, time and again, that the American people aren't as gullible as the creationists and the IDists wish they were. When the issue is squarely on the table, in Kansas, Ohio, Pennsylvania, even South Carolina, the people have voted against ID creationism.

Nigel D declares victory: If only you would walk away. Unless you are prepared to become genuinely informed about that which you seek to denigrate, you should leave the debate and the decisions to your intellectual superiors. We really do know stuff about the world that you don't. And before you whine about the arrogance of scientists, you should consider this: compared to you, with your continued ignorance and your refusal to think, any rational person, who considers the pertinent facts before reaching a decision, will be an intellectual giant.

William Wallace: Shakes head. Walks away. Gets on knees. "Dear God. I'd like to report a bug..."

WW,

I'm still confused. You said Jones could have declared "Hey, this is not a federal issue. It’s a school board issue.", right?

Ok, so I have no first amendment protection against the actions of school boards?

William Wallace also said:

They won the way liberals always win: by finding a court to hand them everything they want on a sliver platter.(Coulter 2006 Godless p. 200)

William, can you remember what the crucial factor was in George Bush II winning the White House in December, 2000?

(A hint: liberals had nothing to do with it.)

May I suggest that folks simply not respond to WW until he presents an actual argument or at the very least provides an actual answer to a question? This stuff is just raspberries and tripe that doesn't even rise to the level of intellectual drool. WW sounds an awful lot like the lunatic preachers we get around here who just yell and scream and absolutely refuse under any circumstances to answer a single question. The only thing they feed on is the attention they get from being obnoxious. This one is a classic troll in the worst sense of the word. The only thing we can be thankful of is that (s)he doesn't post in all caps.

William Wallace: As Ann Coulter wrote in Goddless, "The Darwinists have saved the secular sanctity of their temples: the public schools. They didn't win on science, persuasion, or the evidence. They won the way liberals always win: by finding a court to hand them everything they want on a sliver platter.^{(Coulter 2006 Godless p. 200)}

I read the article by Carl Woese, and he does seem like a bit of a crackpot. Woese aparently has no experience with elementary education, or museum exhibits, or children for that matter. The fossil record and dinosaurs are easy for grade school kids to understand. If we don't explain evolution to kids, there are the Creation/IDist who will happily fill the void.

Langdon Alger: William, can you remember what the crucial factor was in George Bush II winning the White House in December, 2000? (A hint: liberals had nothing to do with it.)

William Wallace said, among other things: Al Gore was president of the Senate at the time the joint session certified the electoral vote in January 2001, best I can remember.

Frank B.: The fossil record and dinosaurs are easy for grade school kids to understand.

Wonderful stuff. This is excellent fodder for a blog entry entitled “Deconstructing the NCSE/PT/TO mafia.”

— William Wallace

The only whining I hear is a bunch of self-proclaimed scientists who should have eaten their quote mining allegations and admitted they were wrong about Nicolaus Copernicus, Tycho Brahe, and Johannes Kepler, (on a different thread) but did not. Preemptively calling yourself arrogantly ignorant doesn’t make it any less true.

William Wallace:

Langdon Alger: William, can you remember what the crucial factor was in George Bush II winning the White House in December, 2000? (A hint: liberals had nothing to do with it.)

Sorry, but you're wrong. Al Gore was president of the Senate at the time the joint session certified the electoral vote in January 2001, best I can remember, and Al Gore quashed attempts by some in the House to object because, as best I can remember, not one senator would would co-sponsor an objection. It turns out that some of those senators were liberal. This is documented, best I can remember, in a liberal documentary by a liberal Michael Moore, so you should know about this.

Lazy Dan wrote: So let me repeat: William seems to think that Nova is "out to lunch" because "even Carl Woese opposes teaching the theory in the lower grades". Yet there is no evidence that Nova supports "teaching the theory in the lower grades". So where, William, is your evidence that Nova is "out to lunch"?

The basics 13.7 billion year old universe, 4.5 billion year old earth...

— raven

William Wallace:

Lazy Dan wrote: So let me repeat: William seems to think that Nova is "out to lunch" because "even Carl Woese opposes teaching the theory in the lower grades". Yet there is no evidence that Nova supports "teaching the theory in the lower grades". So where, William, is your evidence that Nova is "out to lunch"?

Cluebat: Again, please check out the Carl Woese/Brandon Keim mentioned before. After you figure out what Carl Woese means by "lower grades" you should be less confused. Probably not.

Our Mister Wallace ain't very bright. To him, Al Gore and evolution are the same thing. Poor little guy.

And since he can't handle the cognitive dissonance of Coulter denouncing "liberals finding a court to hand them everything they want on a sliver platter" with a conservative court appointing Bush, he kind of has to twist himself into a weird knot to claim that liberals appointed Bush.

So you can see why he can parrot with a straight face the idea that "[Darwinists] didn’t win on science, persuasion, or the evidence", and why he can bring himself to quote Coulter to denounce evolution.

In other news, we've always been at war with Eastasia.

WW:

I was exposed to timeline of earth and evolution from the time I could look at picture books; the understanding of the minutia comes later, but the concept itself is not particularly difficult. Unless, of course, you're really thinking that kids need time for the indoctrination by elements of fundamentalist sects to properly set.

Curious, this argument of "not ready!" isn't brought up in relation to the Trinity.

Our Mister Wallace ain’t very bright. To him, Al Gore and evolution are the same thing.

— Langdon Alger

Nova is out to lunch on the teaching of evolution. Even Carl Woese opposes teaching the theory in the lower grades.

The flu vaccine recommendation, according to some press reports, is aimed more toward reducing the cost to the economy of parents not working while they care for sick children. This is in line with what I believe to be the main justification for the mandatory chicken pox vaccine.(Preblud 1986) While children do tragically die from chicken pox and flu, the number of such children is statistically insignificant. Only 68 children died last year due to the flu.(Fox 2008) In comparison, by one estimate, about 1.3 million babies are aborted each year.(Finer 2006)

In 2001, studies performed in Japan and in an army base in the United States showed that immunization of infants and young children with influenza vaccine not only decreased the incidence of hospitalization from influenza virus in that age group, but also decreased the incidence of hospitalization and death from influenza virus in elderly adults. The decrease in deaths in the elderly following vaccination of young children occurred because adults usually catch influenza from young children.

I see from his website that Wallace depends quite heavily on Coulter's books to butress his 'arguments'. I wonder how he felt about Ann's clever idea of poisoning Supreme Court justices.

Most who strongly advocate teaching the Theory of Evolution (T.o.E.) in secondary schools seem to be motivated out of a hatred for Christianity. This is certainly self-evidently true with vociferous evolutionists. In any event, without macro-evolution, we have plenty to teach in biology.

— Wallace

WW gives us yet another view into the tiny little mind of a Right Wing creotard by casually dimissing the deaths of real, actual, BORN human beings in the same sentence he laments the termination of blastocysts. Typical conservative asswhipery; care only for the unborn, who gives a damn about them once they're here?

I plan to write about history, politics, the creation-evolution controversy, and Christianity, from a unique perspective. Regarding Christianity, I pray that I do not mislead any others through my comments or through intemperate behavior. But this is not a blog on religion. I recommend a God worshiping and Bible venerating local church for your spiritual guidance. I am an aspiring Christian, and do believe that:

I plan to write about history, politics, the creation-evolution controversy, and Christianity, from a unique perspective.

A right-wing Christianist espousing Creationism, attacking evolution, and quoting Ann Coulter is hardly 'unique'.

William Wallace:

Lazy Dan wrote: So let me repeat: William seems to think that Nova is "out to lunch" because "even Carl Woese opposes teaching the theory in the lower grades". Yet there is no evidence that Nova supports "teaching the theory in the lower grades". So where, William, is your evidence that Nova is "out to lunch"?

Cluebat: Again, please check out the Carl Woese/Brandon Keim mentioned before. After you figure out what Carl Woese means by "lower grades" you should be less confused. Probably not.

I see from his website that Wallace depends quite heavily on Coulter’s books to butress his ‘arguments’. I wonder how he felt about Ann’s clever idea of poisoning Supreme Court justices.

Dan asked: What part of the Nova curriculum leads you to think that the authors were "out to lunch"? Don't give me a reference to Woese, give me a reference to the Nova curriculum.

From "The Impact of Kitzmiller v. Dover" course description

• describe the legal history of the creationism/evolution issue;
• explain the evidence that intelligent design is a new form of creationism;
• explain why intelligent design does not belong in the public school science classroom; and
• generate a knowledgeable response to a parent or school board insisting that intelligent design be included in a biology curriculum.

For the record:

George Washington was Anglican, but not very religious; he believed in neither miracles not the efficacy of prayer.

James Madison's religious beliefs were questionable if not outright agnostic.

Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson were deists, believing in a creator who started the universe in motion and then refrained from intervention.

--- Moral Minority: our skeptical founding fathers by Brooke Allen

The basics 13.7 billion year old universe, 4.5 billion year old earth, 99% of all life is now extinct, life changing through time, asteroid impacts as biosphere changing events and so on should be easily graspable by school children.

But, it looks like the PT-mafia is getting increasingly bloodthirsty on this thread. My guess is they’ll send somebody to try to break my legs next.

Translation: "I can't answer people's questions or defend my statements, so time to play the persecuted victim."

A closer analogy would be wanting your wiccan children to learn alchemy. There is no science in ID. None. Zip. Nada. Zilch. Bupkus.

The PT-mafia isn't sending hate mail and death threats to biology professors and judges. That'd be your crop of loons, Willy.

fnxtr: ... loons ...

But, it looks like the PT-mafia is getting increasingly bloodthirsty on this thread. My guess is they’ll send somebody to try to break my legs next.

Good point, David, I'm devaluing my currency, aren't I.

Freedom of religion is recognized in the Bill of Rights, as is Freedom of Speech, the right to petition the government (including school boards).A republican form of government and freedom of speech allows non-scientists to have a say at school board meetings.

Which is fair enough when talking about teaching English or geography or languages. However, when teaching science, laypeople are far from qualified to decide what should or should not be taught. I think that a science curriculum should be decided by science educators in consultation with scientists.

If you don’t appreciate government recognition of freedom of speech, many other countries that suppress it are available and willing to accept.

There is a difference between freedom of speech and the deliberate engendering of unjustified and unreasonable doubt in a core scientific theory. Of course we cannot forbid the DI fellows from lying to the public, because this enters a minefield bordering on infringement of freedom of speech. At the same time, ignorant laypeople are in no position to judge what should or should not be taught as science.

But, it looks like the PT-mafia is getting increasingly bloodthirsty on this thread. My guess is they’ll send somebody to try to break my legs next.

There is a serious reign of terror by Xian fundie terrorists directed against the reality based academic community, specifically acceptors of evolution. I’m keeping a running informal tally, listed below. They include death threats, firings, attempted firings, assaults, and general persecution directed against at least 8 people. The Expelled Liars have totally ignored the ugly truth of just who is persecuting who. If anyone has more info add it. Also feel free to borrow or steal the list. I thought I’d post all the firings of professors and state officials for teaching or accepting evolution. 2 professors fired, Bitterman (SW CC Iowa) and Bolyanatz (Wheaton) 1 persecuted unmercifully Richard Colling (Olivet) 1 attempted firing Murphy (Fuller Theological by Phillip Johnson IDist) 1 successful death threats, assaults harrasment Gwen Pearson (UT Permian) 1 state official fired Chris Comer (Texas) Death Threats Eric Pianka UT Austin and the Texas Academy of Science engineered by a hostile, bizarre IDist named Bill Dembski Death Threats Michael Korn, fugitive from justice, towards the UC Boulder biology department and miscellaneous evolutionary biologists. Up to 8 with little effort. Probably there are more. I turned up a new one with a simple internet search. Haven’t even gotten to the secondary science school teachers. And the Liars of Expelled have the nerve to scream persecution. On body counts the creos are way ahead.

What made intelligent design = creationism was the "cdesign proponentsists" transitional form. This transtional form was not created by the school board of Dover, it was created by ID proponents themselves.

mplavcan: May I suggest that folks simply not respond to WW until he presents an actual argument or at the very least provides an actual answer to a question? This stuff is just raspberries and tripe that doesn't even rise to the level of intellectual drool. WW sounds an awful lot like the lunatic preachers we get around here who just yell and scream and absolutely refuse under any circumstances to answer a single question. The only thing they feed on is the attention they get from being obnoxious. This one is a classic troll in the worst sense of the word. The only thing we can be thankful of is that (s)he doesn't post in all caps.

EoRaptor013: Don't forget, folks, that despite the sanctity of the First Amendment, free speech is subject to reasonable regulation. I have no problem with fundagelicals, ID Creationists, or any other waco group talking to school boards, while in public session. I don't even object to ID wackery, or any other theology, philosophy, or human psychosis case study being taught in school. However, I do object most vehemently to ID Creationism being taught as science, and object even more to the stealth tactics used by the DI (working with board members outside the framework of the school board and its properly conceived rules of order) to insinuate its dogmatic, very minority, heretical ideas into my children's education. 0x1B

EoRaptor013: Hear, hear! WW, Cowardheart, is at the zoo. He thinks he's having great fun poking sticks at the caged animals. His woo is so deep, however, he cannot see that the cage surrounds him, and that he is the gorilla throwing apes**t at the humans. 0x1B

raven:

Don't forget the death threats against Judge Jones and his family after the Dover decision. He had to have the protection of the US Marshal Service.

http://www.tolweb.org/Gorilla/16419

Don’t forget the death threats against Judge Jones and his family after the Dover decision. He had to have the protection of the US Marshal Service.

'William Wallace' said But, it looks like the PT-mafia is getting increasingly bloodthirsty on this thread. My guess is they’ll send somebody to try to break my legs next.

Mike Elzinga wrote: Don't forget the death threats against Judge Jones and his family after the Dover decision. He had to have the protection of the US Marshal Service.

Ensuring the safe conduct of judicial proceedings and protecting federal judges, jurors and other members of the federal judiciary are principal functions of the Marshals Service.^[1]

My guess is they’ll send somebody to try to break my legs next.

William Wallace:

Mike Elzinga wrote: Don't forget the death threats against Judge Jones and his family after the Dover decision. He had to have the protection of the US Marshal Service.

I don't doubt that some false flag threats by the PT mafia were made against Judge Jones. But the fact that the U.S. Marshal service protected a federal judge him is standard operating procedure.

WW,

You think that the threats against Jones were made by *supporters* of the Jones decision (false flag threats?)? This is a joke, right? Or maybe I misunderstand the phrase "false flag". I just want to be sure I understand.

I am concerned about WW. Perhaps we should turn the discussion about his comments to how they fit into the following summary...

"A delusion is a belief that is clearly false and that indicates an abnormality in the affected person's content of thought. The false belief is not accounted for by the person's cultural or religious background or his or her level of intelligence. The key feature of a delusion is the degree to which the person is convinced that the belief is true. A person with a delusion will hold firmly to the belief regardless of evidence to the contrary. Delusions can be difficult to distinguish from overvalued ideas, which are unreasonable ideas that a person holds, but the affected person has at least some level of doubt as to its truthfulness. A person with a delusion is absolutely convinced that the delusion is real.

Delusions are a symptom of either a medical, neurological, or mental disorder. Delusions may be present in any of the following mental disorders:

psychotic disorders, or disorders in which the affected person has a diminished or distorted sense of reality and cannot distinguish the real from the unreal, including schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder, delusional disorder, schizophreniform disorder, shared psychotic disorder, brief psychotic disorder, and substance-induced psychotic disorder, bipolar disorder, major depressive disorder with psychotic features, delirium, dementia.

Overvalued ideas may be present in anorexia nervosa, obsessive-compulsive disorder, body dysmorphic disorder, or hypochondriasis."

William Wallace: Oh, by deciding "Hey, this is not a federal issue. It's a school board issue." Federalism. Yes, it's practically dead. But it had merit.

Delusions are a symptom of either a medical, neurological, or mental disorder. Delusions may be present in any of the following mental disorders:

Nova’s inaccurate portrayal, in the recent film, Intelligent Design on Trial, of the events leading up to and including the Dover trial, makes Nova not credible.

The fact that some people were motivated by creationist goals to teach intelligent design in Dover no more makes intelligent design creationism than you wanting your children to learn chemistry to better prepare wiccan potions makes chemistry wiccanism.

I shudder to think of what the state of science education in this country would be without the Constitution.

PvM:

Nova’s inaccurate portrayal, in the recent film, Intelligent Design on Trial, of the events leading up to and including the Dover trial, makes Nova not credible.

Any particular examples you find meeting your claim of 'inaccurate'?

William Wallace: [After stating his opinion about a film, without any support in either fact or argumentation, goes on to say...] Furthermore, session 2 of the course, "The Impact of Kitzmiller v. Dover" is

From "The Impact of Kitzmiller v. Dover" course description

• describe the legal history of the creationism/evolution issue;
• explain the evidence that intelligent design is a new form of creationism;
• explain why intelligent design does not belong in the public school science classroom; and
• generate a knowledgeable response to a parent or school board insisting that intelligent design be included in a biology curriculum.

This is just partisan pap.

Kitzmiller v. Dover is just a district court decision. It wasn't appealed.

The fact that some people were motivated by creationist goals to teach intelligent design in Dover no more makes intelligent design creationism than you wanting your children to learn chemistry to better prepare wiccan potions makes chemistry wiccanism.

mplavcan fell back to the flowhcart: I am concerned about WW. Perhaps we should turn the discussion...

Dan wrote:

William Wallace wrote: Kitzmiller v. Dover is just a district court decision. It wasn't appealed.

Nowhere does the Nova curriculum claim otherwise.

Stanton:

William Wallace:

Mike Elzinga wrote: Don't forget the death threats against Judge Jones and his family after the Dover decision. He had to have the protection of the US Marshal Service.

I don't doubt that some false flag threats by the PT mafia were made against Judge Jones. But the fact that the U.S. Marshal service protected a federal judge him is standard operating procedure.

It's obvious from this little outburst that William Wallace has never ever read the Bible (despite his hypocritically dogmatic advocating that it be read literally), given as how there was a very small scene where God mentioned a little thing to Moses about "THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS," as well as Jesus' apparently pointless little song and dance number about "LOVE THY NEIGHBOR."

Michael Behe said on a Christian Radio station:^[6] ...And I said such things could happen [useful defects such as sickle cell binding sites], and I said the limit for Darwinian evolution was two connected protein-protein binding sites. That is, if you need three proteins to do something, and each pair of proteins has to be connected by a site; you need two protein binding sites—I said that would be, based on the data that I talk about in the book _The Edge of Evolution_ that's the most you could expect out of Darwinian processes. Now this lady—this graduate student [ERV], said well, hey, look, there's been a new binding site which has occurred in one protein in HIV, the virus that causes AIDS. And she was right, and I had not seen that. So I said, okay, well, there's another single binding site that has come about. But again, you would expect that to happen because the odds against a single binding site popping up are not that prohibitive. But if you need two binding sites together to do something than that's what I said in my book was prohibitive. Since most molecular machines in the cell consist of aggregates of a dozen proteins or so, each of which have to bind very specifically to each other, that means that most of the protein machinery in the cell is well beyond Darwinian evolution. Well, she mis-read the book.

Please show which of us at the Panda's Thumb made "false flag threats" concerning Judge Jones, and what were those exact false flag threats.

And for the record, please also demonstrate what sort of contributions to science has Michael Behe been able to make with his revelation concerning the creation of his "two binding site rule," and explain why didn't he publish it in a peer-reviewed paper before using it to slandering ERV on a radio show.

Furthermore, you refuse to realize that Judge Jones and his family have received 'round the clock US Marshal protection due to the fact that Christian fundamentalists have made constant death threats against him and his family because he ruled against Intelligent Design in the Dover Case.

WW have you encountered Rev. Michael Dowd and his book "Thank God for Evolution"? Google to find it.

You may find it helpful in your struggles.

The Impact of Kitzmiller v. Dover.” The course not restricted to teachers in Dover, PA.

Based on the title of the chapter, it seems that Behe is telling the truth.

I don’t doubt that some false flag threats by the PT mafia were made against Judge Jones. But the fact that the U.S. Marshal service protected a federal judge him is standard operating procedure.

But, it looks like the PT-mafia is getting increasingly bloodthirsty on this thread. My guess is they’ll send somebody to try to break my legs next.

The Impact of Kitzmiller v. Dover.” The course not restricted to teachers in Dover, PA.

Based on the title of the chapter, it seems that Behe is telling the truth.

I don’t doubt that some false flag threats by the PT mafia were made against Judge Jones. But the fact that the U.S. Marshal service protected a federal judge him is standard operating procedure.

But, it looks like the PT-mafia is getting increasingly bloodthirsty on this thread. My guess is they’ll send somebody to try to break my legs next.

The Impact of Kitzmiller v. Dover.” The course not restricted to teachers in Dover, PA.

Based on the title of the chapter, it seems that Behe is telling the truth.

I don’t doubt that some false flag threats by the PT mafia were made against Judge Jones. But the fact that the U.S. Marshal service protected a federal judge him is standard operating procedure.

But, it looks like the PT-mafia is getting increasingly bloodthirsty on this thread. My guess is they’ll send somebody to try to break my legs next.

The only saving grace is that it is correctly and prominently labeled “opinion”, but maybe the PT-mafia can have that fixed.

Pim, there's no reason to deny it any longer. They're on to us.

break out the tommy guns.

meanwhile, since we no longer have to hide our mafia status, suggest we put the screws to the conservative media and make them tell it OUR way.

yeah, yeah, that's the ticket.

Hmm.. that's from "The Hunting of the Snark", isn't it?

"What I tell you three times is true."

Apparently coherent arguments and requests for evidence, and okay, some insults, qualify as "bloodthirsty" in Willy's book. Which is odd because he worships a book brimming with truly bloodthirsty characters. And yes Willy it is the book you worship, not its subject. You're not fooling anyone.

No-one's coming to break your legs, Willy. We all have what are called "lives".

It may disappoint you, but you're just not important enough to have enemies.

Stanton, could you specifically identify about whom I bore false witness, and why you think so?

I don’t doubt that some false flag threats by the PT mafia were made against Judge Jones.

By the way, I have read the Bible,

But the fact that the U.S. Marshal service protected a federal judge him is standard operating procedure.

William Wallace:

Nigel D declares victory: If only you would walk away. Unless you are prepared to become genuinely informed about that which you seek to denigrate, you should leave the debate and the decisions to your intellectual superiors. We really do know stuff about the world that you don't. And before you whine about the arrogance of scientists, you should consider this: compared to you, with your continued ignorance and your refusal to think, any rational person, who considers the pertinent facts before reaching a decision, will be an intellectual giant.

Two additional entries in the evolutionist flow chart: threaten profiling, and simply declare victory. Wonderful stuff. This is excellent fodder for a blog entry entitled "Deconstructing the NCSE/PT/TO mafia." The only whining I hear is a bunch of self-proclaimed scientists who should have eaten their quote mining allegations and admitted they were wrong about Nicolaus Copernicus, Tycho Brahe, and Johannes Kepler, (on a different thread) but did not. Preemptively calling yourself arrogantly ignorant doesn't make it any less true.

William Wallace:

Lazy Dan wrote: So let me repeat: William seems to think that Nova is "out to lunch" because "even Carl Woese opposes teaching the theory in the lower grades". Yet there is no evidence that Nova supports "teaching the theory in the lower grades". So where, William, is your evidence that Nova is "out to lunch"?

Cluebat: Again, please check out the Carl Woese/Brandon Keim mentioned before. After you figure out what Carl Woese means by "lower grades" you should be less confused. Probably not.

PvM: Some other ignorant comments by William Wallace from his own website

The flu vaccine recommendation, according to some press reports, is aimed more toward reducing the cost to the economy of parents not working while they care for sick children. This is in line with what I believe to be the main justification for the mandatory chicken pox vaccine.(Preblud 1986) While children do tragically die from chicken pox and flu, the number of such children is statistically insignificant. Only 68 children died last year due to the flu.(Fox 2008) In comparison, by one estimate, about 1.3 million babies are aborted each year.(Finer 2006)

Count the flaws... Note the references to Fox 2008 for instance. Does Wallace realize that there are better resources to check the facts? Children's Hospital of Philadelphia provides the relevant background to vaccinations. For instance

In 2001, studies performed in Japan and in an army base in the United States showed that immunization of infants and young children with influenza vaccine not only decreased the incidence of hospitalization from influenza virus in that age group, but also decreased the incidence of hospitalization and death from influenza virus in elderly adults. The decrease in deaths in the elderly following vaccination of young children occurred because adults usually catch influenza from young children.

Of course, the lives saved pale into comparison of his meaningless reference to abortions. After all, why not compare it to infants dying of hunger in developing countries, 16,000 every day... But somehow such statistics seem far less interesting to this Ann Coulter fan. Does Wallace understand that there exists a whole series of scientific resources other than Denyse O'Leary's site, Ann Coulter and Fox News ? No wonder he is upset about Nova's educational efforts... If Wallace relies on Fox, why not the following story: Four-Year-Old's Flu Death Raises Importance of Flu Vaccine And as to the cost to parents having to stay home, in our country too many families depend on both parents having to work. Perhaps we should address this issue further?

Nova’s inaccurate portrayal,

— William Wallace

in the recent film, Intelligent Design on Trial, of the events leading up to and including the Dover trial, makes Nova not credible. Nova is partisan.

The film should be studied in high school. In a class on films. In the same way that Leni Riefenstahl’s “documentary” Triumph of the Will should be studied (as a brilliant example of propaganda).

Furthermore, session 2 of the course, “The Impact of Kitzmiller v. Dover” is From “The Impact of Kitzmiller v. Dover” course description describe the legal history of the creationism/evolution issue; explain the evidence that intelligent design is a new form of creationism; explain why intelligent design does not belong in the public school science classroom; and generate a knowledgeable response to a parent or school board insisting that intelligent design be included in a biology curriculum.

Kitzmiller v. Dover is just a district court decision. It wasn’t appealed.

The fact that some people were motivated by creationist goals to teach intelligent design in Dover no more makes intelligent design creationism than you wanting your children to learn chemistry to better prepare wiccan potions makes chemistry wiccanism.

And the facts of the Dover case would not likely be repeated in any future case.

The Nova program looks to me to be an avenue for disseminating NCSE talking points. It looks to me as though it were developed in very close consultation with the NCSE.

(Can I get an NCSE denial?)

Consequently, it appears to be partisan pap as opposed to impartial disinterested advice to teachers.

But, it looks like the PT-mafia is getting increasingly bloodthirsty on this thread. My guess is they’ll send somebody to try to break my legs next.

I don’t doubt that some false flag threats by the PT mafia were made against Judge Jones. But the fact that the U.S. Marshal service protected a federal judge him is standard operating procedure.

— William Wallace

How to identify fundie Xian Death Cultists. It is easy. They lie constantly. They are very, very good at hating. Dumb. They and their leaders frequently publish lists of groups they want to kill. They occasionally kill them.

While the ignorance, lie, violence, and murder cultists are waiting for their theocratic hell on earth, they have a few hobbies. One is publishing lists of people they would like to kill. Another is killing them. Pat Robertson: wikipedia Hugo Chávez“ I don’t know about this doctrine of assassination, but if he thinks we’re trying to assassinate him, I think that we really ought to go ahead and do it. We will find you, we will try you, and we will execute you. I mean every word of it. [Randall Terry, founder of Operation Rescue, at the Aug 8, 1995 U.S. Taxpayers Alliance Banquet in Washington DC, talking about doctors who perform abortions and volunteer escorts My note. Terry’s sympathizers have, in fact, murdered more than a few health care workers. “Pastor Jerry Gibson spoke at Doug Whites New Day Covenant Church in Boulder. He said that every true Christian should be ready and willing to take up arms to kill the enemies of Christian society. bcseweb.org Rushdooney: Our list may not be perfect but it seems to cover those “crimes” against the family that are inferred by Rushdoony’s statement to Moyers. The real frightening side of it is the interpretation of heresy, apostasy and idolatry. Rushdoony’s position seems to suggest that he would have anyone killed who disagreed with his religious opinions. That represents all but a tiny minority of people. Add to that death penalties for what is quite legal, blasphemy, not getting on with parents and working on a Sunday means that it the fantasy ideal world of Rushdoony and his pals, there will be an awful lot of mass murderers and amongst a tiny population. We have done figures for the UK which suggest that around 99% of the population would end up dead and the remainder would have each, on average, killed 500 fellow citizens. Chalcedon foundation bsceweb.org. Stoning disobedient children to death.Contempt for Parental Authority: Those who consider death as a horrible punishment here must realise that in such a case as ….cut for length Rev. William Einwechter, “Modern Issues in Biblical Perspective: Stoning Disobedient Children”, The Chalcedon Report, January 1999 When The Hate Comes From ‘Churches’ ASHLAND, Ore. - A recent spate of crimes points up a growing connection between hateful actions and organizations calling themselves churches. Two brothers from northern California reportedly linked to such a group were charged this week with the killing of two gay men near Redding. Benjamin Matthew Williams and James Tyler Williams also are suspects in the firebombing of three synagogues in the Sacramento area last month.

PvM: Some other ignorant comments by William Wallace from his own website

The flu vaccine...(See the rest here)

Count the flaws... Note the references to Fox 2008 for instance. Does Wallace realize that there are better resources to check the facts? ... Does Wallace understand that there exists a whole series of scientific resources other than Denyse O’Leary’s site, Ann Coulter and Fox News?

William Wallace refuses to realize that the reasons why he has been admonished are because he quotemines, lies, is abusive, and refuses to realize or admit to any wrongdoings. Then there is the fact that he also constantly attempts to play the martyr in order to stroke his own ego.

I am not sure why PvM is trying to detract from the topic at hand: the indoctrination of teachers by Nova (and the NCSE is probably aiding and abetting Nova).

Will Wallace support his vacuous accusations...

All bets are off...

You might of missed this so I will repeat:

Support: I found the NOVA/WGBH course uses an essay Evolution: what's wrong with 'teaching the controversy' by Eugenie Scott and Glenn Branch of the National Center for Science Education (NCSE), which makes my previous request for an NCSE denial of involvement in development of the Nova course less likely.^{[7 ]}

I am not sure why PvM is trying to detract from the topic at hand: the indoctrination of teachers by Nova (and the NCSE is probably aiding and abetting Nova).

William Wallace: You might of missed this so I will repeat: Support: I found the NOVA/WGBH course uses an essay Evolution: what's wrong with 'teaching the controversy' by Eugenie Scott and Glenn Branch of the National Center for Science Education (NCSE), which makes my previous request for an NCSE denial of involvement in development of the Nova course less likely.^{[7 ]}

Contrary to evolutionist claims, many mainstream historians have noted the link between Darwinism and Hitler.

— Wallace

William Wallace: You might of missed this so I will repeat: Support: I found the NOVA/WGBH course uses an essay Evolution: what's wrong with 'teaching the controversy' by Eugenie Scott and Glenn Branch of the National Center for Science Education (NCSE), which makes my previous request for an NCSE denial of involvement in development of the Nova course less likely.^{[7 ]}

An investigation by the United States Office of Special Council uncovered emails by Smithsonian scientists indicating that they had been conspiring with the official sounding National Center for Science Education (NCSE)—which is actually an evolutionist activist group out of Berkley, California—to out the normally anonymous peer reviewers and find ex post facto cause to terminate Richard Sternberg.

In closing, here are some other capitalistic promotions for the communists at Pandas Thumb to rail against:

Regarding Christianity, I pray that I do not mislead any others through my comments or through intemperate behavior.

Last year, 68 children died of flu in 26 states during a very mild influenza season, according to reports compiled by the CDC. Of them, 39 were aged 5 to 17 and more than 90 percent of all the children who died had not been vaccinated.

Background Although influenza is common among children, pediatric mortality related to laboratory-confirmed influenza has not been assessed nationally. Methods During the 2003–2004 influenza season, we requested that state health departments report any death associated with laboratory-confirmed influenza in a U.S. resident younger than 18 years of age. Case reports, medical records, and autopsy reports were reviewed, and available influenza-virus isolates were analyzed at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Results One hundred fifty-three influenza-associated deaths among children were reported by 40 state health departments. The median age of the children was three years, and 96 of them (63 percent) were younger than five years old. Forty-seven of the children (31 percent) died outside a hospital setting, and 45 (29 percent) died within three days after the onset of illness. Bacterial coinfections were identified in 24 of the 102 children tested (24 percent). Thirty-three percent of the children had an underlying condition recognized to increase the risk of influenza-related complications, and 20 percent had other chronic conditions; 47 percent had previously been healthy. Chronic neurologic or neuromuscular conditions were present in one third. The mortality rate was highest among children younger than six months of age (0.88 per 100,000 children; 95 percent confidence interval, 0.52 to 1.39 per 100,000). Conclusions A substantial number of influenza-associated deaths occurred among U.S. children during the 2003–2004 influenza season. High priority should be given to improvements in influenza-vaccine coverage and improvements in the diagnosis and treatment of influenza to reduce childhood mortality from influenza.

William Wallace:

PvM: Some other ignorant comments by William Wallace from his own website

The flu vaccine...(See the rest here)

Count the flaws... Note the references to Fox 2008 for instance. Does Wallace realize that there are better resources to check the facts? ... Does Wallace understand that there exists a whole series of scientific resources other than Denyse O’Leary’s site, Ann Coulter and Fox News?

It appears that PvM is confused about Fox. Specifically, ^{(Fox 2008)} refers to Maggie Fox, a Reuters reporter, and not fox news. This is as indicated in the sources section of the entry. If you'd like to discuss mandating the flu vaccine for children, why not go there. I don't think I have yet cited Fox News anywhere on my blog. I am not sure why PvM is trying to detract from the topic at hand: the indoctrination of teachers by Nova (and the NCSE is probably aiding and abetting Nova). It appears to be a red herring fallacy, or perhaps an argument in the form of "William Wallace was wrong on another argument, as this partial quote seems to indicate, so we shouldn't take his views on the Nova seriously." I have previously attempted to answer PT-mafia red herrings (e.g., pointing out that a joint session of congress certified the 2000 electoral results without objection), and was admonished later for doing so.

Source: Inaugural post February 2nd, 2008 by William Wallace

Mass Vaccination of Schoolchildren against Influenza and Its Impact on the Influenza-Associated Mortality Rate among Children in Japan Norio Sugaya1 and Yoshinao Takeuchi2 1Department of Pediatrics, Keiyu Hospital, Yokohama, and 2Department of Pediatrics, Keio University School of Medicine, Tokyo, Japan Background. Influenza control based on mass vaccination of schoolchildren was implemented in Japan in the 1960s and was associated with a decrease in the overall mortality rate. The program was discontinued in 1994. The discontinuation was followed by a seasonal increase in the mortality rate. Lately, young children and elderly persons have been receiving influenza vaccines. The purpose of this study was to investigate changes in influenza-related mortality among young children before and after discontinuation of mass vaccination of schoolchildren. Methods. We calculated the monthly all-cause mortality rates during 1972–2003 and the pneumonia and influenza (P&I) mortality rates during 1972–1999 for young children (age, 1–4 years). We estimated the excess mortality rates attributable to influenza by computing the baseline annual mortality rate as a centered, 3-year moving average of the number of deaths reported during the 2 preceding and the following Decembers. Results. Prominent winter peaks in monthly all-cause mortality rates among young children occurred in the 1990s. They coincided with the winter peaks in monthly P&I mortality rates among young children and were very similar to the winter peaks observed among elderly persons. The number of excess deaths of young children was estimated to be 783 in the 11 winter seasons from 1990 to 2000, whereas no winter peaks in the number of deaths were seen after 2000. Conclusions. It is likely that discontinuation of mass vaccination of schoolchildren was responsible for the increase in influenza-associated deaths among young children in the 1990s. The recent increase in influenza vaccinations among young children, together with the routine therapeutic use of neuraminidase inhibitors, has led to a decrease in the influenza-associated mortality rate.

Dale Husband: Which has absolutely no concern to us, but concerns you because you want to shut down the NCSE for telling the simple truth about why "teaching the controversy" is a bogus issue.

Wallace lying some more: Contrary to evolutionist claims, many mainstream historians have noted the link between Darwinism and Hitler.

Antisemitism, Christian Ambivalence, and the Holocaust cloth $29.95 Edited by Kevin P. Spicer, C.S.C. Examines the history of antisemitism in the European Christian churches In recent years, the mask of tolerant, secular, multicultural Europe has been shattered by new forms of antisemitic crime. Though many of the perpetrators do not profess Christianity, antisemitism has flourished in Christian Europe. The charge of deicide has shaped the Christian conception of Jews and marked them as the Other. History has shown that, for Christians, no charge was too outrageous to levy upon Jews. Nowhere was this more clearly expressed than in Nazi Germany, its allied European states, and occupied territories. Compounded by racial science, Christian antisemitism, never benign, turned lethal and led to the near eradication of Europe's Jews. Postwar reaction against the Nazi crimes may have made antisemitism much less socially and politically acceptable, but it hardly disappeared. In this book, thirteen scholars of European history, Jewish studies, and Christian theology examine antisemitism's insidious role in Europe's intellectual and political life. The essays reveal that annihilative antisemitic thought was not limited to Germany, but could be found in the theology and liturgical practice of most of Europe's Christian churches. They dismantle the claim of a distinction between Christian anti-Judaism and neo-pagan antisemitism and show that, at the heart of Christianity, hatred for Jews overwhelmingly formed the milieu of 20th-century Europe. Kevin P. Spicer, C.S.C., is Associate Professor of History at Stonehill College in Easton, Massachusetts. He is author of Resisting the Third Reich: The Catholic Clergy in Hitler's Berlin. Published in association with the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum

NCSE brownshirts

Evolutionists are always willing to debate and engage intellectual lightweights.

Which, given the date and the timing of WW’s tirades here, suggests that WW is using Panda’s Thumb to leverage publicity for his new site.

— Mike Elzinga

William Wallace:

Stanton:

William Wallace:

Mike Elzinga wrote: Don't forget the death threats against Judge Jones and his family after the Dover decision. He had to have the protection of the US Marshal Service.

I don't doubt that some false flag threats by the PT mafia were made against Judge Jones. But the fact that the U.S. Marshal service protected a federal judge him is standard operating procedure.

It's obvious from this little outburst that William Wallace has never ever read the Bible (despite his hypocritically dogmatic advocating that it be read literally), given as how there was a very small scene where God mentioned a little thing to Moses about "THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS," as well as Jesus' apparently pointless little song and dance number about "LOVE THY NEIGHBOR."

Stanton, could you specifically identify about whom I bore false witness, and why you think so? I would like to apologize if you're correct, but first need to be convinced. I trust this is reasonable. By the way, I have read the Bible, and do not insist that others read it literally, so if you're concerned about bearing false witness, you might also want to apologize to me.

Frank J: Let's all recall that WW has refused to answer simple questions that Gish, Ross and Behe would have no problem answering.

"In 2005, 1.21 million abortions were performed, down from 1.31 million in 2000." (Source: Guttmacher Institute (January 2008) Facts on Induced Abortion in the United States

PvM: ... my dear confused Christian friend.

BTI.

William Wallace said:
“In 2005, 1.21 million abortions were performed, down from 1.31 million in 2000.” (Source: Guttmacher Institute (January 2008) Facts on Induced Abortion in the United States

Yes? So what? That's 1.21 less people you and your Right Wing asshole buddies will be bitching about having to fund Welfare for since, after all, your only concern for them is in the womb. Why do you have such an interest in these numbers? Were you responsible for getting the women pregnant, you sly dog, you?

William Wallace: "In 2005, 1.21 million abortions were performed, down from 1.31 million in 2000." (Source: Guttmacher Institute (January 2008) Facts on Induced Abortion in the United States

Wolfhound:

PVM copied text from an unrelated post on my site to this one instead of addressing the arguments I made here: [Not for display at panda's thumb]

...

Nigel D wrote: 1.3 million “babies” are aborted each year*? Where? Again, this figure would be incredible if it referred only to the USA. Is it worldwide?

...

William Wallace: "In 2005, 1.21 million abortions were performed, down from 1.31 million in 2000." (Source: Guttmacher Institute (January 2008) Facts on Induced Abortion in the United States

Yes? So what? That's 1.21 less people you and your Right Wing asshole buddies will be bitching about having to fund Welfare for since, after all, your only concern for them is in the womb. Why do you have such an interest in these numbers? Were you responsible for getting the women pregnant, you sly dog, you?

OK, ABC/Larry, the coast is clear. You can post now. Even on off-topic subjects like abortion if you want.

This thread is getting rather heated so I think I am going to take the advice of some of my audience, make like a tree, and leave the thread to the self congratulatory declarations of victory that are about to ensue.

William Wallace: I am going to ... leave the thread to the self congratulatory declarations of victory that are about to ensue.

PVM copied text from an unrelated post on my site to this one instead of addressing the arguments I made here:

William Wallace:

Dale Husband: Which has absolutely no concern to us, but concerns you because you want to shut down the NCSE for telling the simple truth about why "teaching the controversy" is a bogus issue.

For the record, I support the right of evolutionist activists to assemble, and consequently do not want to shut down the NCSE.

That abortion is being discussed on this thread is the apparent result of PvM attempting discredit my arguments indirectly by bringing attention to unrelated arguments I had made elsewhere.

— Lord of lies WW

Unfortunately for PvM, those arguments are substantiated by the sources.

Nigel D. seemed to be challenging the magnitude of abortion in the United States, per a quote from my cite.

This thread is getting rather heated ...

— William Wallace

I’d much rather have had the abortion conversation in context, but PvM is choosing to copy much of my blog over here—without permission.

No. Pim was bringing attention to your credulousness in citing only sources that say what you want to hear.

I am currently working on an entry for my blog that explores one of the ways well funded humanist organizations and their sugar daddies (such as Paul Allen) manipulate the masses via documentaries, and inoculate the next generation by persuading their public school teachers to suppress dissent from Darwinism with well produced propaganda courses.

Regarding Christianity, I pray that I do not mislead any others through my comments or through intemperate behavior.

I think I am going to... make like a tree, and leave the thread to the self congratulatory declarations of victory that are about to ensue.

I’m as free as can be to come or to go because I’ve accomplished my goals…

PVM seems to be spaming your site for his illiterate posts at Panda’s Thumb. You should block any hyperlinks to that shithole since this dishonest fool continues to malicously misrepresents you there. (“Neil Shubin: Your Inner fish” a success by any standard PvM on March 1, 2008 3:32 PM ) In addition to quote mining from your website, he inadvertantly had a fruedian ejaculation and referred to a contemporary piltdown man (the Titaalik transitional fossil) as an “infamous” missing link. Aside from this one accidental moment of honesty, PvM has no credibilty.

...when you finally can’t put your money where your mouth is.

— Stevaroni

a contemporary piltdown man (the Titaalik transitional fossil)

Whatever. The section is titled “Session 2: The Impact of Kitzmiller v. Dover.” The course not restricted to teachers in Dover, PA. Unless or until this or a similar court case makes it to a higher court, the decision is no more important than “Abraham v. Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution et al” will be when it is decided.[2] [3] If the course includes a description of how important novel district court cases that have not been appealed are, as written by the American Center for Law & Justice, I will withdraw my critique.[4]

Dan: if you actually did read the references I cited before I referred to you as “Lazy Dan,” I do want to apologize. I assumed you hadn’t bothered.

Torbjörn Larsson, OM: But what is the common cretard excuse to not be able to distinguish between genuine and fraud?

anonymousNM: a contemporary piltdown man (the Titaalik transitional fossil)

In addition to quote mining from your website, he inadvertantly had a fruedian ejaculation and referred to a contemporary piltdown man (the Titaalik transitional fossil) as an “infamous” missing link. Aside from this one accidental moment of honesty, PvM has no credibilty.

Slightly OT, but interesting nonetheless, is a recent New Scientist article in which Donald Prothero describes 10 classic examples of transitional forms (both fossil and extant).

Subscription-only on the web:
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/life/mg19726451.700-evolution-what-missing-link.html

ya it will help. to exercise it right, tighten the muscle that you tighten to stop peeing during mid-pee. actually i hear if you stop and go while peeing you are doing KE.