Preaching to the faithful

But ID isn't about religion. No, sireee...

It says:

"...will have a chance to win up to a $10,000..."

Up to, up to, up to. I suspect anyone who enters will see very little of the $10,000 purse, if anything.

Depends. Don't take Christians to mean only hard-core, right-wing, fundamentalist-creationist, Bob Jones-inspired homeschoolers and "Christian Academy" folks. They will be fooled, but since they believe the nonsense already, fooled probably isn't the operative word.

Then there are the majority of Christians around the world (such as yourself, if I'm not mistaken). A few of them may be fooled, due to an inadequate education. But most are too wise and well-educated not to recognize this foolishness for what it is.

I just wish that more of them would make the effort to educate their fellow Christians so that nonbelievers don't see Christianity as foolish. You perform an invaluable service in reminding us that some Christians are indeed wise and above the petty worldview of the creationists.

Will Coca Cola company be happy with the Expelled Challenge Logo? The venom appears to be in the tail once again.

Thought Experiment:

Winning school will need at least 1000 kids, right?

Movie tickets are about 10 bucks a pop nowadays.

So this isn't really so much a contest as it is a chance at a percentage of reimbursement.

As a teacher (who is not employed by a Christian school) what do you think is the best way to respond to "Expelled" should it show up in my hometown? Wait until a student asks me what it's about? Hope my kids don't go see it? Head 'em off at the pass by explaining my version of the facts? Ignore it?

Just Bob: Depends. Don't take Christians to mean only hard-core, right-wing, fundamentalist-creationist, Bob Jones-inspired homeschoolers and "Christian Academy" folks.

teach: As a teacher (who is not employed by a Christian school) what do you think is the best way to respond to "Expelled" should it show up in my hometown? Wait until a student asks me what it's about? Hope my kids don't go see it? Head 'em off at the pass by explaining my version of the facts? Ignore it?

BTW, did you happen to notice the endorsments they got? All from Scientists, of course...

Ken Smitherman, President, Association of Christian Schools International
Michael Medved, nationally syndicated radio host
Dr J.I. Packer, theologian
Peter Furler, lead singer, The Newsboys
Luis Palau, President, Luis Palau Association (He's a virulent homophobe, known as the "Evangelist of the World)

Wonder why the fundies are upset with the scientists and evilutionists more than their own God? I mean, He not only
buried our oil under their desert, on top of that, He is
making fundie schools depend on hand outs from Ben Stein!

But one thing we must all understand, the fundie schools might
be easy to fool about things like science evolution etc. But when
it comes to money, they are as hard nosed and down to earth as any
bond trader on Wall Street. They know the squeezability of their
flock and they plot the yield curve like any Texas oil tycoon.
If their students can afford to part with 10$, they would like to
have that 10$ all for themselves. Giving it to a movie
theater, to enrich Ben Stein, who would grudgingly give a fraction
back to the school ... Come on, these schools are too highly
evolved under heavy selection pressure to fall for that.

What is the release date for this movie? I heard it was February, then spring.

thanks

So...Muslim or Jewish schools need not apply. Have they been expelled by Ben Stein? Those Jews and Muslims have all the luck!

So do we know why they delayed the release? I wonder if ANY theaters have signed on to show it.

I watched the trailer ... wanted to puke -ugh- it said the release date is April 08.

Stacy S.: I watched the trailer ... wanted to puke -ugh- it said the release date is April 08.

Ravilyn Sanders: Wonder why the fundies are upset with the scientists and evilutionists more than their own God? I mean, He not only buried our oil under their desert, on top of that, He is making fundie schools depend on hand outs from Ben Stein! But one thing we must all understand, the fundie schools might be easy to fool about things like science evolution etc. But when it comes to money, they are as hard nosed and down to earth as any bond trader on Wall Street. They know the squeezability of their flock and they plot the yield curve like any Texas oil tycoon. If their students can afford to part with 10$, they would like to have that 10$ all for themselves. Giving it to a movie theater, to enrich Ben Stein, who would grudgingly give a fraction back to the school ... Come on, these schools are too highly evolved under heavy selection pressure to fall for that.

teach said:
As a teacher (who is not employed by a Christian school) what do you think is the best way to respond to “Expelled” should it show up in my hometown? Wait until a student asks me what it’s about? Hope my kids don’t go see it? Head ‘em off at the pass by explaining my version of the facts? Ignore it?

Just teach the facts about evolution and avoid any hype about it. Don't stoop to the sensational level of your opponents.

As a teacher (who is not employed by a Christian school) what do you think is the best way to respond to "Expelled" should it show up in my hometown?

I suppose after that awful comment I ought to try a sensible suggestion.

I would suggest not taking the initiative, or you might give the impression that the film is more important than it really is. But ensure you have a few facts and URLs at your fingertips (plenty available from the archive here) should it happen to get mentioned. If the film should become popular (unlikely) you could consider doing a lesson on the differences between propaganda and research. Which might be a good idea anyway.

fooled probably isn’t the operative word.

credulous is the word you're seeking, I think.

Oh, and ID isn't about religion. What a bunch of moronic theistard dipshits.

*snicker*

i don't get it. My daughter and her classmates at public school are "expelled" from this challenge but the DI would jump at the chance to have them read that pandas and people crap????

just like some IDiot websites and podcasts....I wish you could by a ticket to this movie that stipulated that you don't support it. I think many 'consumers' of ID related materials are doing so to critique them and/or to know what to keep their children away from

CleveDan: i don't get it. My daughter and her classmates at public school are "expelled" from this challenge but the DI would jump at the chance to have them read that pandas and people crap???? just like some IDiot websites and podcasts....I wish you could by a ticket to this movie that stipulated that you don't support it. I think many 'consumers' of ID related materials are doing so to critique them and/or to know what to keep their children away from

CleveDan wrote ...I wish you could by a ticket to this movie that stipulated that you don’t support it.

1. Red: I support academic freedom.
2. Blue: I do not support academic freedom.

The creationist coward hiding behind the username Evolved lied: "Oh, and ID isn't about religion. What a bunch of moronic theistard dipshits. *snicker*

It is not clear to me who the audience is. A Christian school should be following the Christian founder's maxim to pursue poverty. Winning $10,000 shouldn't be an enticement. Truth should be enough.

If I understand this correctly, the Expelled folks deem it necessary and proper to offer payment (actually a lottery, not unlike the rabble who cast lots for Jesus' clothes, Luke 23:24) to get people to see their movie. Maybe it's not such a hot ticket.

Yes, the operative words are; "a chance to win up to $10.000"
I have a chance to win the lottery this week, I wonder how proximate the likelihoods of those two events would happen to be?

-"what do we burn aside from witches?"

OT: just got through the "George" - hijacked thread, and had a few thoughts:
Most of the time, I find the Trolls somewhat entertaining, even the best part of Panda's Thumb. I get to watch people that I generally despise (idiots) get their heads handed to them on a platter. Even if they don't own up to it, it's still fun to watch.
But this George creep really was a waste of oxygen. Even the insane ones are more fun than that. He changed course at every turn, so there was no dialog, no character development, no tension, nothing.
I don't know how many lurkers out there share my view that it is the debate that is so much fun, but not with people like George - he doesn't have any cause to defend, he just wants to be a jerk.
Aside from that, thank you all for responding to the trolls; I learn a lot from watching these dialogs, and have a good time enjoying the display of wit and intelligence at Panda's Thumb.

Dan

Paul Burnett: The creationist coward hiding behind the username Evolved lied:

So, my question is, "Who is fronting the money?" The up front for the film production, and the 10K "prize." Is this like Kent Hovind's bogus quarter million dollar contest?

MPW wrote:

Paul Burnett: The creationist coward hiding behind the username Evolved lied:

Uh, Paul...? You might want to read Evolved's comment again. I do not think that it means what you think it does.

How many people in the US call themselves Christians? I think Ben Stein and Crew, are just doing this to make money. They are doing a great marketing job on this movie. I am just mad I didn't think of it first, I will have to come up with some mocumentary that will get me some of those Christian funds:)

PVM:

WW... fair game, or troll to be ingored? Just checking.

fnxtr: PVM: WW... fair game, or troll to be ingored? Just checking.

fnxtr: PVM: WW... fair game, or troll to be ingored? Just checking.

This is a great idea. Make two tickets available: 1. Red: I support academic freedom. 2. Blue: I do not support academic freedom.

— William Wallace

to dan meagher

I agree, I have had a lot of fun over the years reading the "back and forth", although it does get kind of frustrating sometimes. BTW I still really miss the old monthly Feedback section of Talkorigins.org (waiting eagerly for some fundy flaming/rebuttal on the new system)

William Wallace:

CleveDan wrote ...I wish you could by a ticket to this movie that stipulated that you don’t support it.

This is a great idea. Make two tickets available:

1. Red: I support academic freedom.
2. Blue: I do not support academic freedom.

WW: definitely troll.

Feed only at your own risk.

This is a great idea. Make two tickets available:

1. Red: I support academic freedom.
2. Blue: I do not support academic freedom.

why not make them both yellow?

you know, the color of straw?

There is a serious reign of terror by Xian fundie terrorists directed against the reality based academic community, specifically acceptors of evolution. I’m keeping a running informal tally, listed below. They include death threats, firings, attempted firings, assaults, and general persecution directed against at least 9 people.

The Expelled Liars have totally ignored the ugly truth of just who is persecuting who. Two of the perpetrators of the below listed terrorist incidents are higher ups in the DI, a hostile, bizarre clown, Dembski, and Phillip Johnson.

If anyone has more info add it. Also feel free to borrow or steal the list.

I thought I’d post all the firings and death threats of professors and government officials for teaching or accepting evolution.

2 professors fired, Bitterman (SW CC Iowa) and Bolyanatz (Wheaton)

1 persecuted unmercifully Richard Colling (Olivet)

1 attempted firing Murphy (Fuller Theological by Phillip Johnson IDist)

1 successful death threats, assaults harrasment Gwen Pearson (UT Permian)

1 state official fired Chris Comer (Texas)

Death Threats Eric Pianka UT Austin and the Texas Academy of Science engineered by a hostile, bizarre IDist named Bill Dembski

Death Threats Michael Korn, fugitive from justice, towards the UC Boulder biology department and miscellaneous evolutionary biologists.

Death Threats Judge Jones Dover trial. He was placed under federal Marshall protection.

Up to 9 with little effort. Probably there are more. I turned up a new one with a simple internet search. Haven’t even gotten to the secondary science school teachers.

And the Liars of Expelled have the nerve to scream persecution. On body counts the creos are way ahead.

Money as an incentive for a product is a promotional gimmick. This is typical advertising practice. We should make note that science does need an advertising campaign or promotion, it just has real results and benefits knowing or studying it.

Let it be known that ID needs help, it needs to be marketed and served in a special way. It is about giving a specific audience what it wants, not necessarily what it needs.

a marketing ploy by some other agency i assume. Seems too sloppy and dumb to be directly from the DI's ID movement, or Steins.

MPW wrote: "Uh, Paul…? You might want to read Evolved’s comment again. I do not think that it means what you think it does."

Apologies all around. Not the first time I've been fooled by Poe's Law.

"Academic freedom" is not a concept that is meant to allow falsehoods to be taught in classrooms alongside facts. Under the IDiots' misuse of the term, we'd have to start letting skinhead Holocaust deniers teach their views in history classes. "Academic freedom," right?

dan meagher said:

-“what do we burn aside from witches?”

"MORE Witches!" :-)

(I'm really upset that my "Quote" function isn't working :-( ... )

“Academic freedom” is not a concept that is meant to allow falsehoods to be taught

hence the term "academic" in front, which the creobots tend to ignore.

Aside from chewing out a friendly, you can tell that Paul is having a senior moment because he cited Judge Jones for his brilliance when he should have given the ACLU their due.

— William Wallace

WW and FL/Larry are both convinced a priori that evolution is a false belief. Hence they both twist the world to fit their views, regardless of empirical data. The Jones/ACLU thing is classic illustration. But at least you can argue with it, even though doing so is probably futile. George, on the other hand, was just a troll being obnoxious for the sake of being obnoxious. He was rude and insulting and his "arguments" made no sense at all. Next time, just ban him at the first insult.

But back on topic. Note on the website that there are other contests too! A songwriting contest, a multimedia contest, and a "Shoutout" contest. Wow! Since you can go online and submit these things, I humbly suggest the following -- get as many people with stories of how they have been prevented from teaching evolution, harrassed, intimidated, and outright banned, and submit them to the contest. Let's include in there kids who were NOT taught evolution in spite of a mandate to do so! Then post them all here, or on a linked site, just to illustrate how many they ignore.

Why don't we simply download the movie as soon as it comes out, burn copies, and distribute it free to all our fundie friends? I can't imagine they would be too keen on seeing it a second time, (especially if they have to fork over some $$$), even they have *some* limits to how much stupid they can stand.

While we're at it, include a copy of "Judgement Day" as a bonus gift.

Of course, I don't condone piracy, but in this case...

when I'm in charge of the world, all advertising will be required to replace the words "up to" with the words "less than"

Why don't we simply download the movie as soon as it comes out, burn copies, and distribute it free to all our fundie friends? I can't imagine they would be too keen on seeing it a second time, (especially if they have to fork over some $$$), even they have *some* limits to how much stupid they can stand.

While we're at it, include a copy of "Judgement Day" as a bonus gift.

Of course, I don't condone piracy, but in this case...

There was a "private showing" of "Expelled" here in Kansas City tonight, sponsored by a right-wing organization to which writer/producer/pundit Jack Cashill belongs. John Calvert, Esq. (retired) was to be on hand to provide misinformation.No reviews from attendees yet.

when I'm in charge of the world, all advertising will be required to replace the words "up to" with the words "less than"

There was a "private showing" of "Expelled" here in Kansas City tonight, sponsored by a right-wing organization to which writer/producer/pundit Jack Cashill belongs. John Calvert, Esq. (retired) was to be on hand to provide misinformation.No reviews from attendees yet.

This is at least the second time that WW has referred to the Judge Jones - ACLU connection. I can't imagine that he or she(WW might be a pen name) hasn't heard that copying the plaintiff's brief is normal, acceptable, and common practise. But the reason he/she keeps saying it is because of the power of words to evoke feelings. To WW, atheist and ACLU conjure up images of demons and devils.
This brings to mind the success of the ACLU in defending the Nazis' effort to march in Skokie, Illinois in the late 70's. The Nazi's message of hate was eclipsed by the ACLU's message of the freedom of speech. WW's feelings toward free speech and free religion are reflected in his/her feelings toward the ACLU.

PvM wrote:

William Wallace wrote: Aside from chewing out a friendly, you can tell that Paul is having a senior moment because he cited Judge Jones for his brilliance when he should have given the ACLU their due.

Both should be congratulated of course but Judge Jones took the advise of the plaintiffs' team and incorporated them into his findings. Surely nothing wrong with that now is there William?

Gold Leader: They're coming in! Three trolls at 2-10!

[Gold Two is insulted by WW and his wingmen, FL; Gold Leader starts to get irritated]

Gold Leader: It's no good, they just repeat irrelevancies!

Gold Five: Stay on topic.

Gold Leader: *They're too illogical!*

Gold Five: Stay on topic!

Gold Leader: [shouts] Loosen up!

[he too is picked off by WW and Company; Gold Five tries to escape but is drawn in to rebuff an inanity]

Gold Five: Gold Five to Red leader, lost PvM, lost Stanton.

Red Leader: I copy, Gold Leader.

Gold Five: It came from...an Evangelical blog!

Yes, Pandas thumb should be proud that the same ACLU that argues free spirits are entitled to have their sexual solicitations for public restroom sex be treated as private speech,[ACLU] also worked to screw the people of Dover PA in federal court. (Incidentally, does anybody know if Larry Craig was behind the 1990 Americans with Disabilities requirement for support rails in public restrooms?)

In its brief, the ACLU argues that the government can arrest people for soliciting public sex only if it can show beyond doubt that the sex was to occur in public. Solicitation for private sex, regardless if it occurs in a bar or a restroom, is protected speech under the First Amendment.

Wallace also has an interesting and distorted view of what it means to be a Christian. When I pointed out to him that his introductory posting on his blog suggested that his prayers may not be working, he quickly revised history and edited it to read

So it seems to be ok to exhibit intemperate behavior or misleading comments as long as one does not do it on an evangelical blog? I personally find it even more important to show accuracy and respect for others, especially when as a Christian I present my ideas to the non-believing public.

Also, it seems that Wallace's beliefs in academic freedom do not prevent him from removing postings from his blog and other forms of censorship. Oh the irony.

Why break the law when it is sufficient to just ignore the ignorance of Expelled? Let's not give our misguided ID creationists reason to point to the people on this blog as being lawless...

Wallace doesn't like much.

The ACLU, which protects our civil liberties purchased by an enormous amount of blood over 2 centuries, from people like...Wallace.

Science that contradicts his bronze age myths. This is about all of it.

Other Christians including the large majority who are Catholic, mainline Protestants, and noncreo Evangelicals of which there are some oddly enough.

Commies, never mind that they are all but extinct and belong in a museum.

Hmmm, Wallace you need to find a dictatorship with a Dark Ages standard of living and an all fundie population. Just think of all that fun burning witches and hunting down heretics to kill.

I doubt if the vast majority of the US population wants to live in your misanthropic world.

One of the telling characteristics of fundies. They are very, very good at hating. Honestly, I doubt if god likes them much either.

Wallace seems to have a fondness for quoting hearsay secondary sources. In the case of Sternberg it seems that he was not even aware that the emails were made public. Instead he relies on the spin of the Klinghofers and others who seem to have been unable to get access to a suitable PDF reader or even locate the emails in question.
it's much simpler when the thinking is done for you I guess.

Wallace is using a classic tactic here. They select the decisions of the ACLU that they don't like, while ignoring all the decisions that benefit them personally. It is COMPLETE BULLSHIT. The following are cases of the ACLU defending relgious expression and freedom. And this is just a small sample of recent cases from the ACLU site...

PROVIDENCE, RI - The American Civil Liberties Union of Rhode Island today announced the favorable settlement of its lawsuit on behalf of a Christian prisoner who has been barred since 2003 from preaching during Christian religious services at the state prison.

The ACLU of Florida (2007) argued in favor of the right of Christians to protest against a gay pride event held in the City of St. Petersburg. The City had proposed limiting opposition speech, including speech motivated by religious beliefs, to restricted "free speech zones." After receiving the ACLU's letter, the City revised its proposed ordinance.

The ACLU of Oregon (2007) defended the right of students at a private religious school not to be pressured to violate their Sabbath day by playing in a state basketball tournament. The Oregon School Activities Association scheduled state tournament games on Saturdays, the recognized Sabbath of students and faculty of the Portland Adventist Academy. The ACLU argued that the school's team, having successfully made it to the tournament, should not be required to violate their religious beliefs in order to participate

The ACLU of West Virginia (2007) sued on behalf of a Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon) university student who won a prestigious scholarship to West Virginia University. Although the state scholarship board provided leaves of absence for military, medical, and family reasons, it denied the ACLU's client a leave of absence to serve on a 2-year mission for his church. The ACLU filed a religious freedom claim in federal court.

The ACLU of Eastern Missouri (2007) represents Shirley L. Phelps-Roper, a member of the Westboro Baptist Church, whose religious beliefs lead her to condemn homosexuality as a sin and insist that God is punishing the United States. The protests in which she has been involved have been confrontational and have involved funerals of soldiers killed in Iraq. While the ACLU does not endorse her message, it does believe that she has both religious and free-speech rights to express her viewpoint criticizing homosexuality.

mplavcan: Wallace is using a classic tactic here. They select the decisions of the ACLU that they don't like, while ignoring all the decisions that benefit them personally. It is COMPLETE BULLSHIT.

The truth is never as satisfying as the quote mining of a single case.

snaxalotl wrote: when I'm in charge of the world, all advertising will be required to replace the words "up to" with the words "less than"

mplavcan wrote: Gold Leader: They're coming in! Three trolls at 2-10! ... Gold Five: It came from...an Evangelical blog!

mplavcan also wrote: Wallace is using a classic tactic here. They select the decisions of the ACLU that they don't like, while ignoring all the decisions that benefit them personally...

Stanton wrote: So is William Wallace implying that he would prefer to live in a theocracy where its citizens have no legal right to a fair trial, and that religious texts are used in lieu of schoolbooks?

I’ve dealt with the ACLU recently. I don’t have much respect for them (though I have some). If the ACLU were doing its job, we wouldn’t need the American Center for Law and Justice

Compare ACLU's position on "ACLU of Tennessee Fights for Religious Freedom in Wilson County Public School" with ACLJ's position... Just as a good example.

Ah yes, the American Center for Legislating Jesus. We get their broadcasts here. Truly stunning stuff. An amusing game is to listen to the broadcast (if you can stomach it), then actually look up the case to see just how far they have distorted the facts.

Stanton wrote: So is William Wallace implying that he would prefer to live in a theocracy where its citizens have no legal right to a fair trial, and that religious texts are used in lieu of schoolbooks? Wallace: Now now, you’ve a fertile imagination. Long term, yes, but short term, no.

William Wallace: If the ACLU were doing its job, we wouldn't need the American Center for Law and Justice (ACLJ)

Most people only hear, see, or read material that confirms the beliefs they already hold. All else is ignored or rejected as lies or errors. The gate is closed to contradictory data. That makes them morally superior!

But one thing that those unaffected by this demon don't understand is that the victim is not lying about the data. The demon only lets his victim see what the demon wants him to see and thus the victim, whose sensory input is horribly askew, feels that he is totally honest about the data. The victim doesn't know that he is the host to an evil parasite and indeed many of their opponents don't know that as well since the demon is smart enough to be too small to be seen. But unlike Maxwell's demon, Morton's demon doesn't expend any energy--he gets his victim to expend it for him. He can get his victim to expend massive amounts of intellectual energy figuring out how to convince the world that they are wrong. The victim will spend hours reading supportive books or searching through scientific literature noting only those portions which support the YEC position. And the victim will spend lots of energy trying to convince others to come see things the way they do. Thus, the demon gets its victims to spend energy to help it spread the infection. The demon drives his victim to go to YEC conventions so that the demon can rest. By making his victim be with those equally afflicted, the demon doesn't have to shut the door or even be watchful. This is because it allows the demon time to rest when all that is in the room is supportive data. For the victim, there is comfort in numbers even if they are few.

Seems clear who the audience is for Expelled.

— PvM

The demon drives his victim to go to YEC conventions so that the demon can rest.

— PvM

Frank J:

The demon drives his victim to go to YEC conventions so that the demon can rest.

— PvM

Except that we don't know that WW promotes, let alone believes, YEC. Morton's Demon was identified by a former YEC who recognized how he was deceiving himself, but I guess that a more generalized version can apply to OECs or even those who, like WW, prefer a "don't ask, don't tell" approach. The problem I have with the latter is that, sooner or later the person has to admit to himself the simple fact that at best only one creationist account can be the correct one. Which means that the others are just as "weak" in his mind as evolution. Also, he will likely be aware that some people have proposed "natutalistic" alternatives to not just evolution (e.g. Goldschmidt), but even common descent (e.g. Schwabe and Senapathy). Which shows what would be true even if none were proposed - that the dichotomy of "naturalistic" evolution vs. "something else by design" is a false one. Unlike YECs who's Demon filters evidence to fit their favorite version, those who keep evading the questions and concentrating on what's wrong with "Darwinism" sooner or later must realize they can't have it both ways: either they admit that their objection is philosophical and not scientific, or they need to spell out which account they prefer and devote "equal time" to refuting the others. So the "don't ask, don't tell" people's Demon is either radically postmodern, or there is no Demon, just a premeditated willingness to mislead.

Stacy S.: (I'm really upset that my "Quote" function isn't working :-( ... )

• All postings will be tagged as regular, troll or response to troll
• A big button at the top of the page will toggle show/hide troll postings.
• In the hide-trolls mode, troll postings and their responses will be replaced by one line per post saying things like "troll by Larry hidden" or "response to troll by Ravilyn hidden".
• If it is easy enough to code, these lines like "response by Nigel hidden" will be clickable. When clicked that posting alone will be made visible.
• Even a simple hide-all-trolls and show-all-trolls is a vast improvement over the present situation.
• Responders to trolls are the good guys and they will voluntarily identify their postings as response-to-troll when it is one.
• Marking a posting as troll is involuntary, and only privileged users can do it. It means the admin/crew. They might recruit volunteers to watch and tag such postings.
• If it is easy enough to code, the "troll is hidden" line might indicate the number/percentage of visitors who opened the posting and viewed it. Once the trolls realize a huge percentage of visitors don't bother to read their rants, they will slowly stop wasting their and our time.
• I too read the responses to trolls and learn a lot. And at low levels of infestation, these trolls act like booster shot vaccine. Strength training our response systems :-)

• The need to allow threads not to be derailed by malicious posters
• The need to allow users who don't like to leave trolls questions go unanswered, lest it be mistaken by the lurkers
• The education some users like me get by reading thougtful responses by people like Nigel
• The need to avoid even the appearance of censorship

Ravilyn,

If the computer gurus can do that, I'm all for it. Given that PT does ban troublesome posters, even "evolutionists," I also have no problem if certain "kinds" of trolls are banned if they repeatedly refuse answer questions.

My preferred filter is that everyone who objects to evolution (or pretends to) state, at least in general terms, what their alternative to evolution is.

Thus Ken Ham (YEC) and Michael Behe (OEC who accepts common descent) would be welcome (note how rarely anti-evolution leaders stop by), but those like WW and ABC/Larry would have to put up or shut up. Even Paul Nelson would be given only so many chances to clarify if he's truly a YEC, or an Omphalos creationist, as one thread suggested a while back.

Ravilyn Sanders: Stacy, Cant guess why it would stop working for you.

In the hide-trolls mode, troll postings and their responses will be replaced by one line per post saying things like “troll by Larry hidden” or “response to troll by Ravilyn hidden”.

Dale Husband (or somebody impersonating Dale Husband) spew: (((WHITE POWER! LOOK OUT N*GG**S, THE KLAN IS GETTING BIGGER!)))

Flint: Uh, this would reduce at least 90% of the comments on PT to one-line content-free entries. And at least half of what's left would be "Gee, that's neat" comments about the OP.

Flint: Whether by intent or not, the raison d'etre of this site is to give brainwashing victims an opportunity to demonstrate their condition, and give everyone else a chance to detail that condition at length. I've presumed that the goal is to provide a cautionary illustration of the power of ignorance.

William Wallace:

Dale Husband (or somebody impersonating Dale Husband) spew: (((WHITE POWER! LOOK OUT N*GG**S, THE KLAN IS GETTING BIGGER!)))

What hateful speech.

why doesn’t he move to Iran? At least in Iran, there will be genuine reasons for his persecution and martyr complexes.

Wallace again quote mines when he dropped the "That’s as stupid as saying that if the NAACP was doing its job, we wouldn’t need the Ku Klux Klan."...

Why?

Ravilyn Sanders: Hey, if we don't employ the lessons we have learned from natural selection who would?

William Wallace:

Dale Husband (or somebody impersonating Dale Husband) spew: (((WHITE POWER! LOOK OUT N*GG**S, THE KLAN IS GETTING BIGGER!)))

What hateful speech.

Ravilyn Sanders: Hey, if we don’t employ the lessons we have learned from natural selection who would?

Is there a way to have a "Click to view text" button on known trolls comments?

PvM: Can you explain how ID explains anything in biology? Just curious

Like a bridge over troll-ed waters...

If we treat all the brainwashed victims identically there is no selection pressure, and they will not evolve.

— Ravilyn Sanders

teach: As a teacher (who is not employed by a Christian school) what do you think is the best way to respond to "Expelled" should it show up in my hometown?

Wallace: Now now, you’ve a fertile imagination. Long term, yes, but short term, no.

wikipedia Salem Witchcraft Trials: The Salem witch trials were a series of hearings before local magistrates followed by county court trials to prosecute people accused of witchcraft in Essex, Suffolk, and Middlesex Counties of colonial Massachusetts, between February 1692 and May 1693. Over 150 people were arrested and imprisoned, with even more accused who were not formally pursued by the authorities. The two courts convicted twenty-nine people of the capital felony of witchcraft. Nineteen of the accused, fourteen women and five men, were hanged. One man, refusing to enter a plea, was ordered to be crushed to death under heavy stones. At least five more of the accused died in prison.

Henry J: Like a bridge over troll-ed waters...

William Wallace: Exactly. Why don't you write a new script to take your existing scripts, and randomly mutate them. If the script gets you closer to the new features you want, keep it, if not, revert to the old version.

Raven, RE:145111

Mirecki, Kansas

Cowardheart quote-mined:

Dale Husband (or somebody impersonating Dale Husband) spew: (((WHITE POWER! LOOK OUT N*GG**S, THE KLAN IS GETTING BIGGER!)))

What hateful speech.

Dale Husband ACTUALLY said:

William Wallace: If the ACLU were doing its job, we wouldn’t need the American Center for Law and Justice (ACLJ)

That's as stupid as saying that if the NAACP was doing its job, we wouldn’t need the Ku Klux Klan. (((WHITE POWER! LOOK OUT N*GG**S, THE KLAN IS GETTING BIGGER!))) William Wallace is cut from the same cloth as those idiots.

Raven, RE:145111 Mirecki, Kansas

PvM wrote: Can you explain how ID explains anything in biology? Just curious

Gerry Rzeppa wrote: The orderly movements of the stars or the making of oaks from acorns is enough for most normal folks... And is anything really different in the way of evidence being discovered? Aren't we seeing, under the microscope and through the telescope, the same kind of design that we see, all around us, every day, with the unaided eye?

William Wallace:

PvM wrote: Can you explain how ID explains anything in biology? Just curious

That seems an awful lot like asking "Can you explain how information theory explains anything in communications?" "...Ever seeing, but never perceiving..." As Gerry Rzeppa notes, the evidence for design is not the problem facing evolutionists.

Gerry Rzeppa wrote: The orderly movements of the stars or the making of oaks from acorns is enough for most normal folks... And is anything really different in the way of evidence being discovered? Aren't we seeing, under the microscope and through the telescope, the same kind of design that we see, all around us, every day, with the unaided eye?

It appears that I once again need to point out that the original concept of academic freedom in the first universities was that the faculty (sometimes with the students) governed the university. All aspects, including not only curriculum but lecture content as well.

Look up the medieval Latin legal concept of universitas.

if we don’t employ the lessons we have learned from natural selection who would?

ACLU that argues free spirits are entitled to have their sexual solicitations for public restroom sex be treated as private speech,[ACLU]

"The real motive behind secret sting operations like the one that resulted in Senator Craig’s arrest is not to stop people from inappropriate activity. It is to make as many arrests as possible – arrests that sometimes unconstitutionally trap innocent people,"

Solicitation for private sex, regardless if it occurs in a bar or a restroom, is protected speech under the First Amendment. When free speech rights come into play, police enforcement actions must be "carefully crafted" so that they don’t unnecessarily ensnare people who are engaging in constitutionally protected speech.

hence the term “academic” in front, which the creobots tend to ignore.

W. Wallace,
I'm curious, you see the debate on these threads about Trolls hijacking the threads, do you know that they are talking about you?
you are talking to some very smart people here, you may not agree with their point of view, but that does not invalidate their intellect. Your own intellect is being given short shrift here because you are not engaging in an intellectual conversation, instead, your just making cutting, witty remarks. I get the feeling that you consider yourself intelligent. Do you not see that by engaging the people on this site in the way that you do - smarmy and dismissively - you come off as an arrogant ass instead of the sharp-witted man you seem to think that you are?

Stanton: Everyone notice how William Wallace has evaded the question of how "Intelligent Design" explains Biology?

Torbjörn Larsson, OM: Why do you lie, WW? And what is the problem with the US constitution, in your eyes? Do you want to remove it all together? Or do you want to “just” remove its protections for the private sphere?

That seems an awful lot like asking “Can you explain how information theory explains anything in communications?”

— William Wallace

PvM:

That seems an awful lot like asking “Can you explain how information theory explains anything in communications?”

— William Wallace

Thanks for explaining why ID is scientifically vacuous William. Very helpful. What 'theory' does ID propose relevant to answering these questions?

Socrates in Plato's Phaedrus The specific which you have discovered is an aid not to memory, but to reminiscence, and you give your disciples not truth, but only the semblance of truth; they will be hearers of many things and will have learned nothing; they will appear to be omniscient and will generally know nothing; they will be tiresome company, having the show of wisdom without the reality.

Dan meagher wrote: Your own intellect is being given short shrift here because you are not engaging in an intellectual conversation, instead, your just making cutting, witty remarks.

Of course, William Wallace still refuses to realize that the reason why the other commenters at Panda's Thumb refuse to give him any respect is that William Wallace has failed to earn any respect, as he has demonstrated himself to be mean-spirited in his dishonesty, and is wholly incapable of answering any questions asked of him or even understanding even the most rudimentary scientific points. Plus, he freely admits that he would prefer to live in a theocracy where the citizens have had all of their legal rights stripped of them by pious tyrants.

Hey, Cowardheart, what exactly is this "PT-Mafia" you keep going on about? Does it have any connection to the Elders of Zion? Or maybe the "Gangster Computer God Worldwide Secret Containment Policy"? Are the dreaded Underpants Gnomes involved?

Or is it all just a bunch of bullshit you made up? Like the time you lied about the death threats made against Judge Jones? Not that that was the first lie you told here. Or the last.

Why don’t some of your great intellects learn the manners that Allen MacNeill has and go have intellectual discussions with intellectual heavy weights at a much more erudite site like Uncommon Dissent?

In the second reference, PvM references and sings the praises an ignorant third year art student second year English major who somehow got a piece published.

Between the lying, bribery and lack of objectivity, the only way this movie will become a blockbuster is if the Discovery Institute starts bribing public schools to see its movie-length infomercial. Then again, I wouldn’t put it past them.

wannabe thugs

Monday, February 18, 2008 Contra Derb on Ben Stein [Steve Hayward] I'm going to have to wait to see Expelled before making a final judgment about agendas—hidden, shifty, or otherwise—but I have to say I continue to be troubled by the fervency of anti-ID commentary. I don't have a dog in this fight—well, maybe a small poodle regarding the misuse of Darwinian concepts in social science and politics by the so-called "Progressives" 100 years ago, as we discussed in our panel together on this subject at AEI last spring. (See also Jonah's book on this score—plug, plug. And—full disclosure—John West of the Discovery Institute was a housemate of mine in graduate school 20 years ago in Claremont.) I can understand, in the abstract, why global warming alarmists decry us so-called "skeptics"—we are, after all, a roadblock to SAVING THE PLANET, fergodsakes! But what exactly is the real world threat from ID people in the academy? (Or elsewhere?) Is there a technical issue, like stem cell research, where the ID argument is relevant? Is ID really the scientific equivalent of Naziism or Communism, which should rightly be proscribed from a faculty and curriculum? I have to agree with Ben Stein in the trailer that people who are confident in their views should not feel threatened by heterodox views. [The Corner, National Review website. Emphasis added]

Yesterday I went to a press screening of the new film, Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed. For those who are unfamiliar with this film, it’s an agit-prop documentary of the Michael Moore variety, with one main difference: it’s conservative. It’s about the evolution debate, and takes the position that Intelligent Design theory (ID) should at least be allowed a place at the table in discussions of biological origins. The film stars Ben Stein as the Michael Moore/Morgan Spurlock/Al Gore figure—mounting an “op-ed” type argument that is less about why ID is right or evolution wrong as it is about why there is such a concerted effort by the mainstream science community to squelch any and all debate on the matter. The film begins by recounting about a half dozen cases of highly-qualified PhD professors at various universities who have been fired in recent years for daring to mention that evolution as a theory has some weaknesses. From here the film gives a general narrative of how the scientific and academic powers that be have aggressively sought to silence any dissent—either by ID proponents or anyone else with questions about Darwin’s theory. I came into this film very, very skeptical, worried that it would be all about trying to disprove evolution and argue for creationism (thereby reinforcing stereotypes of anti-intellectual religious fundamentalists). I was worried that it would further reinforce the (false) binary that says Christianity and science are on two sides of a battle and can never have any common ground. But I was pleasantly surprised with Expelled on a number of levels. First of all, it’s pretty funny and quite entertaining. Ben Stein’s hyper-dry way of interviewing people is great fun to watch, and his “everyman” persona makes him easy to sympathize with. His “anyone, anyone” Ferris Bueller character also makes him an appropriate choice for a film about the expulsion of dissenting ideas in the classroom. Secondly, it’s a reasonably effective, well-mounted argument (if a tad on the manipulative side). The filmmakers interviewed many prominent figures from both sides of the debate, including an extended (and deliciously uncomfortable) interview between Stein and Richard Dawkins (atheist extraordinaire and author of The God Delusion). The film is smart to keep its focus on the glaring double standards and contradictions among the evolution advocates—who have built impenetrable walls around the sacrosanct theory of evolution and (in a very un-academic spirit) refused to allow any rational dialogue on the matter. Indeed, the film hits a nerve in its critique of the contemporary American academy. As a graduate student immersed in academia and all its idiosyncrasies, I can attest to the pervasive and disturbingly hypocritical sense of close-mindedness that stifles the spirit of progressive discourse. It goes beyond the scientific communities in higher education and touches many disciplines. Quite simply: if you are not on the “right” side of the wall (whatever wall it may be), your voice is stifled, your work discredited, and your intelligence questioned. It’s gone beyond political correctness and is now something altogether more militant and sinister. Sadly, the academy today is less about the sharing and discovery of truth as it is about the wielding and protecting of power. Critics will attack this movie and claim that it is manipulative propaganda, but if Michael Moore can get an Oscar for it, why hate on Ben Stein? Certainly the film has its faults. It is less-than-subtle at times and heavy-handed at others (the sequence on Nazism and Hitler as direct descendent of Darwinist thought is perhaps unnecessary), and overall it is very derivative of other films of this type. Obviously Stein knowingly mimics Michael Moore in his leading-question, “I’m going to make you look stupid” method of interviewing. But there are also direct parallels to Al Gore in An Inconvenient Truth. Like Gore in that film, Stein gives a speech in a lecture hall, incorporates “deeply personal” elements, and plays on apocalyptic fears (in this case, the fear that free speech is increasingly suppressed, East Germany style). But Expelled’s lack or originality and copycat style is, in a way, sort of the point. It’s a film that very deliberately presents itself as an alternative type of film—the anti-Michael Moore, perhaps. It is trying to argue that there is (or should be) room at the table for both sides, for multiple arguments on any issue. But more than likely the film will be denied wide distribution or much (if any) press coverage, just as Intelligent Design theory is either ignored or laughed out of most cultural discourse. Whatever you may think of ID or evolution (and I’m not saying either is wrong or right) it’s hard to argue against the injustice of denying the discussion. But unfortunately that’s just what is happening. stillsearching.wordpress.com/2008/02/28/no-discussion-allowed/#comment-789

Thanks for explaining why ID is scientifically vacuous William. Very helpful. What ‘theory’ does ID propose relevant to answering these questions?

Will these people never get that the definitive discussion took place over a hundred years ago, and Paleyism hasn’t merited any discussion since? And despite that, it has been discussed copiously, including far more than is merited within academia?

— Glen Davidson

Frank J: The nerve that the movie will hit covers far more than just evolution. Most nonscientists, religious right or otherwise, are very willing to uncritically believe that mainstream science is conspiring to shut out new ideas. And just as willing to uncritically believe that some crank "scientist" armed with nothing more than feel-good sound bites has a "breakthrough" idea.

"anyone who thinks 'a miracle happened' is an answer to a scientific question should be expelled."

it is my opinion that ignorance be classified as a disease; the persistent attachment to an idea in spite of growing contrary information and marked by symptoms of withdrawal when challenged for facts.

Doctors should be ready to require patients sign a contract stating that by accepting the treatment they abdicate legal ability to establish denial of evolution.

Enlisting Christian schools and Christian home-schooled. Hum.

Preaching to the Faithful or Marketing to the Moronic?