And, lest there be any doubt what the true motivation for Expelled is, check out this screen grab from the "Leader's DVD" handed out at preview screenings...
More Expelled info.
66 Comments
Gib · 18 April 2008
I like how "good science" is in quotes.
I think Ben Stein is a "great man".... :)
ellazimm · 18 April 2008
Well, I guess if you've got money and no research agenda . . .
Ian · 18 April 2008
I like how “good science” is in quotes.
- No doubt that's to differentiate it from the "evil science" practised by those "Darwinists"!
Frank J · 18 April 2008
I like how “good science” is in quotes.
— Gib
I often notice how extreme fundamentalists are, despite all their preaching to the contrary, as morally relativistic as anyone. But I also notice that morally relativistic people in general tend to use subtle indicators that their conscience may be nagging them. The frequent use of "Darwinism" instead of "evolutionary biology" is one, and the above quotes - where the lack of them would suit the "ID is science" pretense better - is another.
Nigel D · 18 April 2008
Gib:
I like how "good science" is in quotes.
I think Ben Stein is a "great man".... :)
Yeah, he really grates, man...
Duvenoy · 18 April 2008
Nah, Stein's career will go ok. The Discovery Institute will appoint him a senior fellow and he'll then he'll have a cushy job writing great, whopping & hilarious lies for Uncommon Descent.
It's good. They can use some fresh lack of talent over there.
doov
ellazimm · 18 April 2008
Yeah, what ever happened to Michael Medved? I thought he was going to do great things for The Discovery Institute?
Walker · 18 April 2008
Ben's career was already in the toilet. You should read what the economics blogs say about his WSJ articles. If you like his views creationism, you will love hisGoldman Sacks conspiracy theories.
Frank J · 18 April 2008
Yeah, what ever happened to Michael Medved? I thought he was going to do great things for The Discovery Institute?
— ellazimm
His radio show, commentaries for Townhall and public appearances have been keeping him busy. From what I read and hear, he devotes an almost negligible amount of his time to anti-evolution pseudoscience. I think the DI hired him to find Bigfoot. But like all the other ID "research" we keep hearing about, it will begin "any day now."
"Bigfoot" jokes aside, the DI is an authoritarian think tank, with other interests besides anti-evolution activism. Their "Center for Science and Culture" is the ID arm. I'm not sure if Medved is part of that.
Frank J · 18 April 2008
Note, my admittedly cynical view is that Medved and Stein are used by the DI to counter the frequent accusations of their being all about "Christianity." But I'm one who doesn't take their bait. Rather than target "Christians" I speak of "anti-science activists" and "their scammed cheerleaders." Only when the context demands it, do I refer to "fundamentalists" in general. And when the opportunity arises, I point out the inconvenient fact that the fundamentalist Muslims that they despise are more likely to buy their anti-evolution pseudoscience than the average Christian or Jew.
Science Nut · 18 April 2008
The screen shot with "faith" is one thing, but if you go to ...
http://getexpelled.com/downloads.php
...and then click on the URL-link for an "Expelled" PowerPoint presentation you get...
Let them keep talking. They'll have the longest rope that the fundies could ever weave.
keith · 18 April 2008
Hey I understand Ben's gardner at one of his six estates quit because he is an evolutionist with a degree from raisen bran univ. (similar to most of the posters here).
Since that job pays 12/hr with benefits and would be a substantial raise for the evobutts here and close to nature, field work for you, see...send your resume to Ben today.
Since the junk lawsuit, threats, picketing, NADA...nothing worked... I think you all should lie down on the interstates and freeways leading to the movie parking lots in droves and block traffic...preferably at 2 am in a black suit.
April 18th.. Independence Day II
_Arthur · 18 April 2008
The Sadly, No! weblog spotted Medved ranting about why americans will never accept an atheist president.
"Just as the Queen plays a formal role as head of the Church of England, the President functions as head of the “Church of America” – that informal, tolerant but profoundly important civic religion that dominates all our national holidays and historic milestones."
"A president with a mandate doesn’t have to be a regular church-goer, or even a convinced believer; but he can’t openly reject the religious sensibility of nearly all his predecessors and nearly all his fellow citizens."
Here is the tirade: http://www.townhall.com/columnists/MichaelMedved/2008/04/09/americans_are_right_to_resist_an_atheist_as_president?page=full&comments=true
and here is Sadly, No! take: http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/9246.html
Rick R · 18 April 2008
Reposted from another thread. Just for Keith. This reviewer could be describing you.....
The New York Times weighs in (registration is required but free):
Resentment Over Darwin Evolves Into a Documentary
The opening sentence says it best:
One of the sleaziest documentaries to arrive in a very long time, "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed" is a conspiracy-theory rant masquerading as investigative inquiry.
Why don't you go back and reread the reviews for these guys other flop with Mel Gibson and see what the secular liberal press and reviewers said about it.
Then check out the boxoffice at 680 million worldwide.
Then go get vacinated against being bitten by rabid bats.
One of the sleaziest documentaries to arrive in a very long time, "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed" is a conspiracy-theory rant masquerading as investigative inquiry.
Rabies? It's projection with you, Keith. Truly excellent parody.
Chris · 18 April 2008
Keith:
ON a whim, I looked at the reviews for "Passion";
Hmmm, a 50% positive overall, and 38% positive from top reviewers.
"expelled"? A 9% positive, and 0% from top reviewers to date. Seems statistically significant.
ellazimm · 18 April 2008
Keith: Just out of curiosity: what is your academic and employment background?
Frank J · 18 April 2008
The Sadly, No! weblog spotted Medved ranting about why americans will never accept an atheist president.
— _Arthur
More evidence that Medved likes to talk about subjects other than evolution.
On his radio show Medved appears especially knowledgeable about history, and secondly religion. Caveat: I'm no expert in those subjects, so I can't tell if he's just good at memorizing lots of facts, getting them mostly wrong, but thinking fast on his feet. But he seems to be able to stump callers when other far-right talk show hosts have to escape by talking over them or saying "oops, I have to take a hard break, thank you for the call."
From the few times Medved discusses science he does seem clueless, but that too might be an act. Even before joining the DI, however, he was far more savvy than other far-right talk show hosts about anti-evolution activism. E.g. he caught a caller off guard with "Mike Huckabee is (probably?) not a young-earther."
J. Biggs · 18 April 2008
You're such a joke Keith.
Evolander · 18 April 2008
ellazimm: Keith: Just out of curiosity: what is your academic and employment background?
Keith has at times claimed several master's degrees, but none in biology. But that depends on how long ago he took his meds.
Frank J · 18 April 2008
“expelled”? A 9% positive, and 0% from top reviewers to date. Seems statistically significant.
— Chris
Do you have any data for religious and/or politically conservative reviewers? I would guess that they'd be a little more favorable than that, though not nearly as favorable as for "Passion." And near zero if such reviewers know more than a little about science.
Medved just might see this as a poison pill, too hot to handle even for him, though he thoroughly agrees with the premise. But let's wait & see. He get's pretty obnoxious.
raven · 18 April 2008
Joseph Goebbels:
“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.
Stein will do just fine. There is always a demand for demagogues and propagandists. The lunatic fringes are his natural element. Plus, it helps in that business to be devoid of a conscience.
Goebbels had a great run as the Nazi propaganda minister and ended up as the last head of the third Reich. Money and power were his for the taking. He had a rough landing though.
wikipedia:
At 8 p.m. on the evening of 1 May, Goebbels arranged for an SS doctor, Helmut Kunz, to kill his six children by injecting them with morphine and then, when they were unconscious, crushing an ampoule of cyanide in each of their mouths.
He then shot himself.
Stein will end up with more than enough money, a steady job as propagandist for crackpots, and the appalled condemnation from most of the intelligentsia. In a worst case scenario, he will have the satisfaction of helping to bring down the American civilization.
I'm beginning to think the Seattle Times has mutated over to the dark side. The Times often gives mucho space to the DI's op-eds, which, not suprisingly, are quickly posted on the DI's site even before the ink dries. And, and such op-ed's are added to their list of "peer reviewed" publications (hey, the newpaper editor looked it over & approved it).
The same Michael Medved, in his Town Hall column, explained that slavery in America wasn't so bad after all.
"An honest and balanced understanding of the position of slavery in the American experience requires a serious attempt to place the institution in historical context and to clear-away some of the common myths and distortions." "1. SLAVERY WAS AN ANCIENT AND UNIVERSAL INSTITUTION, NOT A DISTINCTIVELY AMERICAN INNOVATION." "2. SLAVERY EXISTED ONLY BRIEFLY, AND IN LIMITED LOCALES, IN THE HISTORY OF THE REPUBLIC – INVOLVING ONLY A TINY PERCENTAGE OF THE ANCESTORS OF TODAY’S AMERICANS. " "3. THOUGH BRUTAL, SLAVERY WASN’T GENOCIDAL: LIVE SLAVES WERE VALUABLE BUT DEAD CAPTIVES BROUGHT NO PROFIT. " "4. IT’S NOT TRUE THAT THE U.S. BECAME A WEALTHY NATION THROUGH THE ABUSE OF SLAVE LABOR: THE MOST PROSPEROUS STATES IN THE COUNTRY WERE THOSE THAT FIRST FREED THEIR SLAVES." "5. WHILE AMERICA DESERVES NO UNIQUE BLAME FOR THE EXISTENCE OF SLAVERY, THE UNITED STATES MERITS SPECIAL CREDIT FOR ITS RAPID ABOLITION." "6. THERE IS NO REASON TO BELIEVE THAT TODAY’S AFRICAN-AMERICANS WOULD BE BETTER OFF IF THEIR ANCESTORS HAD REMAINED BEHIND IN AFRICA."
For an encore, I suppose Medved will argue that the Holocaust lasted only a few years, and wasn't so bad after all.
Here is the column (I kid you not) http://www.townhall.com/Columnists/MichaelMedved/2007/09/26/six_inconvenient_truths_about_the_us_and_slavery
Here is Sadly, No! take "Pick a bale of stupid" http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/7272.html
Sorry for getting more and more off-topic. Of course, the Holocaust, Slavery, Darwin, Bein Sein, Mike Medved, Nazism, Atheism are utterly unrelated topics.
Ed T · 18 April 2008
Walker:
Ben's career was already in the toilet. You should read what the economics blogs say about his WSJ articles. If you like his views creationism, you will love hisGoldman Sacks conspiracy theories.
The best thing I saw in those blog was the suggested that the term "Tom Foolery" be replaced by "Ben Steinery". Brilliant!
Robin · 18 April 2008
Keith: Why don’t you go back and reread the reviews for these guys other flop with Mel Gibson and see what the secular liberal press and reviewers said about it.
Then check out the boxoffice at 680 million worldwide.
Then go get vacinated against being bitten by rabid bats.
Nothing quite illustrates the fanatic's level of delusion as his or her inability to see the world as it actually is. To wit:
http://www.usatoday.com/life/movies/news/2004-02-26-passion-reviews_x.htm
The fact is, the reviews for The Passion were mixed with some MAJOR critics actually giving it a good review based on Mel Gibson's technical accomplishment and story telling. This is not the case with Expelled however; even the most CONSERVATIVE critics have panned it as tripe. Get a grip, Keith...the movie is just bad no matter how you slice it.
James F · 18 April 2008
Chris said:
Keith:
ON a whim, I looked at the reviews for “Passion”;
Hmmm, a 50% positive overall, and 38% positive from top reviewers.
“expelled”? A 9% positive, and 0% from top reviewers to date. Seems statistically significant.
That's only if you believe the Darwinian lie of statistics!
WATERLOO!
(Discovery Institute distancing itself from the film a la Dover in 5...4...3...
Dave C · 18 April 2008
"...and have a lively evening centered around this intersection of science and faith."
Yeah, and we could call it "Crossroads" and invite biology profess...
...wait a minute!
Randy · 18 April 2008
my favorite line from the NYTtimes review:
“Expelled” is rated PG (Parental guidance suggested). It has smoking guns and drunken logic.
Marilyn · 18 April 2008
Keith: "Then go get vaccinated against being bitten by rabid bats."
I'm already vaccinated against rabies, since exposure to rabies virus is an occupational hazard of mine. If it was up to the likes of Keith and other anti-science types, we wouldn't have vaccines against rabies or anything else. We'd still have an expected lifespan of less than 30 years. But what the hay? To fervent religious believers like Keith,life on Earth is just a pesky delay in getting to Paradise anyway.
I still can't figure why the IDists didn't spend their money making a movie that actually states what the theory of intelligent design is and lays out all the "suppressed" evidence that supports it. Hmmm-could it be because all the fakery they could muster would not enable them to accomplish THAT?
The link to the movies.go.com gives the overall review for Passion as C from reviewers and B+ from viewers.
For expelled the reviewers are C and viewers are A.
Ellaz: I have said before that my two degrees are B. S. Engineering Physics and M.S. Systems Engineering and currently in a MS Liberal Studies with emphasis in History of Science (retirement project for fun and fulfillment).
Engr. in Defense Industry, Operations Research Analyst/ Technical Supervisor in Energy Business, MIS several positions, V.P. MIS for Energy Co., Consultant to Higher Ed Community College Training Programs. Retirement
Also Certified Commercial Appraiser
The reason evolution beyond microevolution within narrow types has always been BS to me is the more one examines life, the cell, the universe, etc. the clearer it is that the methods of evolution write large are completely at odds with all human experience, laws of physics, math, information theory and lack any degree of credibility.
Experienced engineers know that highly integrated, multi-component heterogeneous systems replete with strict interface requirements, communication protocols, codes, quality control elements, sensory perceptive feedback elements can not and have not ever been developed by any evolutionary methods in human experience and all attempts to do so have been abject failures.
Interrobang · 18 April 2008
Oy, Medved is dumber than I was giving him discredit for. Although I'm only a pro-am historian and my area of expertise isn't slavery in the US, I was playing the fun home game of "Spot the Lie/Half-Truth/Distortion" in his apologia for slavery. I guess he's been wrong so long, he looks like right(-wing) to me...
Sam · 18 April 2008
Keith: try checking out the 'n' on your source's measurements, especially note how many ratings were averaged to arrive at the 'C' given by critics.
Since you make a point out how well educated you are, perhaps you can see the statistical flaw in your arguments.
Dean Wentworth · 18 April 2008
Keith,
The fact that you can't correctly spell gardener, raisin, or vaccinated makes your academic and professional accomplishments even more impressive.
Robin · 18 April 2008
keith said:
I see the liars club is still in play.
http://movies.go.com/the-passion-of-the-christ/d77…
The link to the movies.go.com gives the overall review for Passion as C from reviewers and B+ from viewers.
For expelled the reviewers are C and viewers are A.
Uhhh...I don't know where you got your data on Expelled, but according to the site you provided, Expelled has a viewer rating of C+:
http://movies.go.com/expelled-no-intelligence-allowed/r942707/documentary
Of course, the site only references two reviews for Expelled and the movie just opened today, so the jury isn't even in yet. Let's see what your little sites says about Expelled in a week when people actually get a chance to see it. I pity those that do, however.
But keep up the rose-colored outlook in that delusional world of yours, Keith. I'm sure that world there is just...peachy keen.
Dave K · 18 April 2008
Uh, Keith, on that site you linked to, Expelled gets a C from critics and a D+ (not an A) from viewers. I guess you must think you can just make stuff up with impunity, huh?
Richard Simons · 18 April 2008
Keith, if you want people to think you have some sort of education and are not just a crazy, ignorant buffoon, you could start by working on your spelling. You know, difficult words like 'gardener' and 'raisin'.
Hey I understand Ben’s gardner at one of his six estates quit because he is an evolutionist with a degree from raisen bran univ. (similar to most of the posters here).
PvM · 18 April 2008
I see the liars club is still in play.
Don't be too hard on ID...
PvM · 18 April 2008
Seems that Keith's link to Movies.com may have caused it to precipitously drop in ranking. Thanks Keith for your help.
prof weird · 18 April 2008
keith doth whine :
Hey I understand Ben’s gardner at one of his six estates quit because he is an evolutionist with a degree from raisen bran univ. (similar to most of the posters here).
Standard IDiot double standard - "a science degree is MEANINGLESS (unless the holder supports Magical Skymanism 'Intelligent' Design, in which case his WORD is irrefutable !!"
The gardener probably quit because he could no longer tolerate the stench of prevarication coming from Expelled (far, far worse than manure, which is actually useful).
I have a Master's Degree in biology with 15 years experience working with DNA; do you have even a passing acquaintance with biology or REAL science, keith ?
Since that job pays 12/hr with benefits and would be a substantial raise for the evobutts here and close to nature, field work for you, see…send your resume to Ben today.
Typical moron - it was FIELD WORK that provided the EVIDENCE that Darwin used for Origin of Species in the first place; all later lab work has supported evolution.
Still under the delusion that 'Expelled' is a threat, eh ?
The main problem about REALITY is that is simply won't go away - if every sane person/evo accepter were killed and everything about evolution destroyed, the MET could still be re-discovered by examining the real world.
Unless, of course, the theocracy forbids actually examining the real world, and insists everyone examine carefully selected screeds instead.
Since the junk lawsuit, threats, picketing, NADA…nothing worked… I think you all should lie down on the interstates and freeways leading to the movie parking lots in droves and block traffic…preferably at 2 am in a black suit.
How long have you had these delusions of persecution, and violent fantasies ?
Why, EXACTLY, are the lawsuits 'junk' ? Because thieves and liars must prosper ? Because they show that keith is - GASP !!! - wrong about something ?
What threats ? What picketing ? You seem to be under the delusion that Expelled is important enough to stop.
It isn't - it is FAR better for it to be viewed so everyone can see just what a craptacular lie-fest it really is.
Reviews aren't so good when the producers can't control who sees the movie, are they ?
You seem to be running the 'Impending Victory' bluff : "since evolution will be overturned Any Day Now, it would be in your best interest to simply give up !! Really, it is ! Really !!! IT IS !!!!!!"
The idea is to trick the reality-based community into giving up the fight, since there is no way creationism/'intelligent' design can win a fair, evidence-based fight.
It didn't work for Baghdad Bob; why should it work for you ?
April 18th.. Independence Day II
Independence from what ? A full stomach when people retch at seeing the movie ? A full wallet when people have to actually PAY to be exposed to such dreck ?
You still have the silly idea that this silly movie will actually DO or MEAN anything at all ?
The most that will happen is platoons of brain-eating manure golems will stagger from the theatres and begin infesting science blogs with drivel debunked years (if not decades) ago. It may take weeks for the stench from the self-martyred to fade
Shebardigan · 18 April 2008
keith:
Experienced engineers know that highly integrated, multi-component heterogeneous systems replete with strict interface requirements, communication protocols, codes, quality control elements, sensory perceptive feedback elements can not and have not ever been developed by any evolutionary methods in human experience and all attempts to do so have been abject failures.
You've been away from the craft too long, it would appear; "Darwinistic" engineering is now all the rage, with both software and hardware being "designed" by mutation and selection.
New Scientist had an article a number of years ago about some folks who pioneered this sort of thing with FPGAs; it only took a hundred generations or so to get more than one successful "design" (a frequency discriminator, if memory serves). Interestingly, one or two of the "designs" were not reverse-engineerable -- no one was really sure why they worked at all. One of them would only function when the ambient temp was within a few degrees of what the temp in the lab had been during its evolution. One of them had a mass of circuitry that had no apparent function, except that the device stopped working when it was removed.
There's plenty of documentation online about this stuff for those who don't choose to believe in its nonexistence.
jasonmitchell · 18 April 2008
I think there should be a corollary of Godwin's law:
"As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
where the probability that a crackpot commenting on about a field outside of his/her expertise will turn out to be an engineer is directly proportionate the his/her degree of nuttiness
fxntr · 18 April 2008
To a man with a CAD program, a soldering iron, and possible lead poisoning, everything looks like a designed circuit.
Shebardigan · 18 April 2008
fxntr:
To a man with a CAD program, a soldering iron, and possible lead poisoning, everything looks like a designed circuit.
Here now! I have all the above and... uh... I know I was going to make some sort of point...
keith · 18 April 2008
Biology is real science, the aberration of evolution writ large is a parasite enabled by philosophical atheism straining to find a credible hypothesis to justify their pitiful belief system.
I took biology in HS and found it so simplistic that I at once went the engineering route and after 48 hrs of physics, 24 hours of chemistry, 42 hours of math, 12 hours of O.R. and 16 hours of MIS plus various business classes amounting to 22 hours I have no regrets.
Dumb Butts there were 14 reviews for the Passion film. D
See lighting a Bunsen burner and cutting a up a frog is not exactly rocket science, HS grads digging up bones in east Africa is really wowy, and bird beaks coming and going is really astounding, to say nothing of moths glued to trees getting sooty.
Biology is great, evolution has zippo to do with any significant advance in real science, it is all in your petrified imaginations.
Rick R · 18 April 2008
I love you, Keith. Seriously. Are you married?
You make me laugh.
J. Biggs · 18 April 2008
keith wrote:
Experienced engineers know that highly integrated, multi-component heterogeneous systems replete with strict interface requirements, communication protocols, codes, quality control elements, sensory perceptive feedback elements can not and have not ever been developed by any evolutionary methods in human experience and all attempts to do so have been abject failures.
Do they really Keith? Apparently you haven't heard of evolutionary algorithms applied to circuit design. The results have been quite astonishing and have produced better circuits than very capable electrical engineers. I have known about this for some time and IEEE has many publications on its usefulness. Apparently you are as inept in engineering as you are in Biology.
UnMark · 18 April 2008
It's my most unfortuante experience as an engineer (with a degree in Engineerg Physics as well...) that the more maladroit an engineer is, the more managerial responsibilities they are given to which they apply a whole new set of ineptitudes.
Dean Wentworth · 18 April 2008
Being an engineer myself, this hurts, but I feel compelled to support jasonmitchell's idea about a corollary to Godwin's law.
Keith, I've worked with many engineers of your ilk, who cavalierly dismiss entire fields of science about which they know less than nothing.
I took high school biology too. What I mostly remember is the girl with the cute ass who sat next to me. Fortunately, I went on to get a B.S. in biological oceanography, so I learned enough biology to know that only an arrogant fool would call it "simplistic."
prof weird · 18 April 2008
keith doth intone :
Biology is real science, the aberration of evolution writ large is a parasite enabled by philosophical atheism straining to find a credible hypothesis to justify their pitiful belief system.
Evolution is the central unifying concept in biology - without it, all the data accumulated by thousands of researchers over the last 150 years is just 'stamp-collecting'.
And your 'alternative' explanation is what again ?
"An unknowable being somehow did stuff sometime in the past for some reason" ?
I took biology in HS and found it so simplistic that I at once went the engineering route and after 48 hrs of physics, 24 hours of chemistry, 42 hours of math, 12 hours of O.R. and 16 hours of MIS plus various business classes amounting to 22 hours I have no regrets.
So, in other words - you knew ALMOST NOTHING ABOUT BIOLOGY OR EVOLUTION even DECADES AGO, yet feel qualified to bellow about it endlessly now ?
See lighting a Bunsen burner and cutting a up a frog is not exactly rocket science, HS grads digging up bones in east Africa is really wowy, and bird beaks coming and going is really astounding, to say nothing of moths glued to trees getting sooty.
Ever isolate and sequence a gene, keith ?
Ever compare genes between species and genera and note similarities and differences ?
It was examination of the REAL WORLD that provided EVIDENCE that evolution is a viable explanation of how life changes over time. Lab work during the last 20 years has strengthened the case - not like professional ignorami like yourself are capable (or willing) of understanding any of it.
keith whistles past the graveyard with :
Biology is great, evolution has zippo to do with any significant advance in real science, it is all in your petrified imaginations.
RiiIIiiIIiight ! Keep telling yourself that, twit. It MAY magically become true if you wish hard enough at your 'Intelligent' Designer.
If it is all in our petrified imaginations, then SURELY someone as 'intelligent' as you could provide some EVIDENCE to back up that assertion ?
Or is empty flatulent bluster and egotistical posturing all ye got ?
What is your 'definition' of real science - any field that you can understand ?
Have you given arrogance lessons to this guy or this guy ?
They invoke the same levels of gibbering pomposity that you do, only on different subject matter.
keith:
I took biology in HS and found it so simplistic that I at once went the engineering route and after 48 hrs of physics, 24 hours of chemistry, 42 hours of math, 12 hours of O.R. and 16 hours of MIS plus various business classes amounting to 22 hours I have no regrets.
Is that all? Either you add up hours differently from what I would expect or it was a light program. By 'hours' do you mean hours spent in lectures or does it mean something else? (I had something like 60 or 70 lecture hours of math in my first biology degree).
UnMark · 18 April 2008
Credit hours, I presume.
keith · 19 April 2008
See ipso facto only a brain trust of morons would assume a reference to hours in academia would think clock hours.
Stochastic circuit design lets see transistors, resisters, inductors, capacitors, rectifiers...maybe 12 component types driven by search space limiting assumptions, goal searching and optimization algorithms, defined objective functions and all programmed by yesireee a group of intelligent programmers using codes developed by yesiree intelligent software engineers, hardware engineers, etc. All designed...get it designed.
Yeah this is a great analogy to say a cell, an airborne avionics system, an auto assembly plant, a Saturn rocket, an insulin producing assembly or such.
Corresponding with evolanders is like reading the script from a Bevis and Butthead cartoon.
There are clinics that deal with brainwashing and I can refer your team to several.
PvM · 19 April 2008
There are clinics that deal with brainwashing and I can refer your team to several.
What was your favorite one? And did it work?
As to the fascinating feedback, feedforward mechanisms found in real life, yes we humans have done well mimicking nature here. For instance the regular clock cycles in life are pretty well understood and guess what? No Casio labels were found but the use and reuse of pre-existing systems, just like evolutionary theory predicts.
All that is needed is a fitness function and a regular clock function is quite evolvable in this sense.
Even in electronics we see how such features can evolve and no intelligence needed, all that is needed is variation, selection and fitness.
PvM · 19 April 2008
I took biology in HS and found it so simplistic that I at once went the engineering route and after 48 hrs of physics, 24 hours of chemistry, 42 hours of math, 12 hours of O.R. and 16 hours of MIS plus various business classes amounting to 22 hours I have no regrets.
Yes, engineering is the best route for those who donot understand sciences like evolution. Of course, many windfalls have been made by those who could and biotech is the wave of the future.
But now I understand your relatively juvenile understanding of biology and evolution.
Richard Simons · 19 April 2008
keith:
See ipso facto only a brain trust of morons would assume a reference to hours in academia would think clock hours.
Or someone who does not habitually use the US system of measuring instructional hours. Given your general level of ignorance, you may not be aware that some things are done differently elsewhere.
Shebardigan · 19 April 2008
keith:
Yeah this is a great analogy to say a cell, an airborne avionics system, an auto assembly plant, a Saturn rocket, an insulin producing assembly or such.
From a "career perspective" standpoint, then, it's obviously to your benefit that you are retired. Refusal to acknowledge demonstrated physical reality can really set you back at performance review time.
(Isn't that conceptually related to what happened to somebody described in some sleazy movie that came out recently?)
Torbjörn Larsson, OM · 19 April 2008
So how can one have a MS in engineering and be totally devoid of knowledge of basic physics?
Astounding.
a degree from raisen bran univ. (similar to most of the posters here)
It isn't relevant since I'm not a biologist, but fun fact: my PhD is from Uppsala University, which was founded 1477.
OTOH american islands were (re)discovered by europeans 1492, and US founded 1776. Guess that makes US a raisin bran nation in comparison. :-P
evolutionary algorithms applied to circuit design.
A former neighbor of mine researched antenna designs. AFAIU evolutionary algorithms were known to come up with the damnedest asymmetric designs, sometimes much superior to the symmetric designs of regular engineering.
Torbjörn Larsson, OM · 19 April 2008
Oh, I forgot:
your team
keith has indeed a retired brain, as he can't distinguish private bloggers from a conspiration.
keith:
...
Experienced engineers know that highly integrated, multi-component heterogeneous systems replete with strict interface requirements, communication protocols, codes, quality control elements, sensory perceptive feedback elements can not and have not ever been developed by any evolutionary methods in human experience and all attempts to do so have been abject failures.
keith wrote:
Stochastic circuit design lets see transistors, resisters, inductors, capacitors, rectifiers...maybe 12 component types driven by search space limiting assumptions, goal searching and optimization algorithms, defined objective functions and all programmed by yesireee a group of intelligent programmers using codes developed by yesiree intelligent software engineers, hardware engineers, etc. All designed...get it designed.
But the algorithm is designed (by a human designer) to mimic biological evolution (a natural occurrence). And the circuits in this case are not designed by a human but by a computer running an evolutionary algorithm. If you are arguing that God designed an evolutionary algorithm to create all life on earth, I can live with that; It still wouldn't count as a scientific claim however.
Yeah this is a great analogy to say a cell, an airborne avionics system, an auto assembly plant, a Saturn rocket, an insulin producing assembly or such.
Actually all of your analogies are inappropriate primarily because biological organisms and structures aren't like anything made by human designers. Nice of you to once again demonstrate your intellectual dishonesty by moving the goal posts though, since your original analogy didn't mention any of the above. Let me refresh your memory.
Last paragraph from comment #151436:
Experienced engineers know that highly integrated, multi-component heterogeneous systems replete with strict interface requirements, communication protocols, codes, quality control elements, sensory perceptive feedback elements can not and have not ever been developed by any evolutionary methods in human experience and all attempts to do so have been abject failures.
No, there was nothing about auto assembly plants or Saturn rockets there. So your original assertion still remains refuted. And just so you know, more and more of the circuitry being made today is being developed via the evolutionary algorithm. It appears a computer that mimics what nature does is able to come up with better solutions faster than human designers. So even if your current examples lack any circuitry designed via the EA (which I doubt), it is a safe bet that the majority of them will have it in the future.
Corresponding with evolanders is like reading the script from a Bevis and Butthead cartoon.
So which one are you Beavis or ...? Oh, never mind I know which one you are.
There are clinics that deal with brainwashing and I can refer your team to several.
Apparently they didn't work out so well for you.
dhogaza · 22 April 2008
Why do people respond to Keith? Why hasn't he been moved someplace more appropriate, i.e. the bathroom wall? He's not even an entertaining speling be fayling trol.
More Expelled info.
66 Comments
Gib · 18 April 2008
I like how "good science" is in quotes.
I think Ben Stein is a "great man".... :)
ellazimm · 18 April 2008
Well, I guess if you've got money and no research agenda . . .
Ian · 18 April 2008
I like how “good science” is in quotes.
- No doubt that's to differentiate it from the "evil science" practised by those "Darwinists"!
Frank J · 18 April 2008
Nigel D · 18 April 2008
Duvenoy · 18 April 2008
Nah, Stein's career will go ok. The Discovery Institute will appoint him a senior fellow and he'll then he'll have a cushy job writing great, whopping & hilarious lies for Uncommon Descent.
It's good. They can use some fresh lack of talent over there.
doov
ellazimm · 18 April 2008
Yeah, what ever happened to Michael Medved? I thought he was going to do great things for The Discovery Institute?
Walker · 18 April 2008
Ben's career was already in the toilet. You should read what the economics blogs say about his WSJ articles. If you like his views creationism, you will love hisGoldman Sacks conspiracy theories.
Frank J · 18 April 2008
Frank J · 18 April 2008
Note, my admittedly cynical view is that Medved and Stein are used by the DI to counter the frequent accusations of their being all about "Christianity." But I'm one who doesn't take their bait. Rather than target "Christians" I speak of "anti-science activists" and "their scammed cheerleaders." Only when the context demands it, do I refer to "fundamentalists" in general. And when the opportunity arises, I point out the inconvenient fact that the fundamentalist Muslims that they despise are more likely to buy their anti-evolution pseudoscience than the average Christian or Jew.
Science Nut · 18 April 2008
The screen shot with "faith" is one thing, but if you go to ...
http://getexpelled.com/downloads.php
...and then click on the URL-link for an "Expelled" PowerPoint presentation you get...
http://www.powerpointsermons.com/?page=search&bible_id=&keyword_id=&other=expelled&x=0&y=0
That's right "Power Point Sermons" dot com!!!!
Let them keep talking. They'll have the longest rope that the fundies could ever weave.
keith · 18 April 2008
Hey I understand Ben's gardner at one of his six estates quit because he is an evolutionist with a degree from raisen bran univ. (similar to most of the posters here).
Since that job pays 12/hr with benefits and would be a substantial raise for the evobutts here and close to nature, field work for you, see...send your resume to Ben today.
Since the junk lawsuit, threats, picketing, NADA...nothing worked... I think you all should lie down on the interstates and freeways leading to the movie parking lots in droves and block traffic...preferably at 2 am in a black suit.
April 18th.. Independence Day II
_Arthur · 18 April 2008
The Sadly, No! weblog spotted Medved ranting about why americans will never accept an atheist president.
"Just as the Queen plays a formal role as head of the Church of England, the President functions as head of the “Church of America” – that informal, tolerant but profoundly important civic religion that dominates all our national holidays and historic milestones."
"A president with a mandate doesn’t have to be a regular church-goer, or even a convinced believer; but he can’t openly reject the religious sensibility of nearly all his predecessors and nearly all his fellow citizens."
Here is the tirade: http://www.townhall.com/columnists/MichaelMedved/2008/04/09/americans_are_right_to_resist_an_atheist_as_president?page=full&comments=true
and here is Sadly, No! take: http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/9246.html
Rick R · 18 April 2008
Reposted from another thread. Just for Keith. This reviewer could be describing you.....
The New York Times weighs in (registration is required but free):
Resentment Over Darwin Evolves Into a Documentary
The opening sentence says it best:
One of the sleaziest documentaries to arrive in a very long time, "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed" is a conspiracy-theory rant masquerading as investigative inquiry.
*******************************************************************
keith · 18 April 2008
Why don't you go back and reread the reviews for these guys other flop with Mel Gibson and see what the secular liberal press and reviewers said about it.
Then check out the boxoffice at 680 million worldwide.
Then go get vacinated against being bitten by rabid bats.
Dana Hunter · 18 April 2008
Rick R: have you a link? That looks delightful.
Rick R · 18 April 2008
Chris · 18 April 2008
Keith:
ON a whim, I looked at the reviews for "Passion";
Hmmm, a 50% positive overall, and 38% positive from top reviewers.
"expelled"? A 9% positive, and 0% from top reviewers to date. Seems statistically significant.
ellazimm · 18 April 2008
Keith: Just out of curiosity: what is your academic and employment background?
Frank J · 18 April 2008
J. Biggs · 18 April 2008
You're such a joke Keith.
Evolander · 18 April 2008
Frank J · 18 April 2008
DavidK · 18 April 2008
Medved just might see this as a poison pill, too hot to handle even for him, though he thoroughly agrees with the premise. But let's wait & see. He get's pretty obnoxious.
raven · 18 April 2008
DavidK · 18 April 2008
I'm beginning to think the Seattle Times has mutated over to the dark side. The Times often gives mucho space to the DI's op-eds, which, not suprisingly, are quickly posted on the DI's site even before the ink dries. And, and such op-ed's are added to their list of "peer reviewed" publications (hey, the newpaper editor looked it over & approved it).
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2004353967_chapman17.html
_Arthur · 18 April 2008
The same Michael Medved, in his Town Hall column, explained that slavery in America wasn't so bad after all.
"An honest and balanced understanding of the position of slavery in the American experience requires a serious attempt to place the institution in historical context and to clear-away some of the common myths and distortions."
"1. SLAVERY WAS AN ANCIENT AND UNIVERSAL INSTITUTION, NOT A DISTINCTIVELY AMERICAN INNOVATION."
"2. SLAVERY EXISTED ONLY BRIEFLY, AND IN LIMITED LOCALES, IN THE HISTORY OF THE REPUBLIC – INVOLVING ONLY A TINY PERCENTAGE OF THE ANCESTORS OF TODAY’S AMERICANS. "
"3. THOUGH BRUTAL, SLAVERY WASN’T GENOCIDAL: LIVE SLAVES WERE VALUABLE BUT DEAD CAPTIVES BROUGHT NO PROFIT. "
"4. IT’S NOT TRUE THAT THE U.S. BECAME A WEALTHY NATION THROUGH THE ABUSE OF SLAVE LABOR: THE MOST PROSPEROUS STATES IN THE COUNTRY WERE THOSE THAT FIRST FREED THEIR SLAVES."
"5. WHILE AMERICA DESERVES NO UNIQUE BLAME FOR THE EXISTENCE OF SLAVERY, THE UNITED STATES MERITS SPECIAL CREDIT FOR ITS RAPID ABOLITION."
"6. THERE IS NO REASON TO BELIEVE THAT TODAY’S AFRICAN-AMERICANS WOULD BE BETTER OFF IF THEIR ANCESTORS HAD REMAINED BEHIND IN AFRICA."
For an encore, I suppose Medved will argue that the Holocaust lasted only a few years, and wasn't so bad after all.
Here is the column (I kid you not) http://www.townhall.com/Columnists/MichaelMedved/2007/09/26/six_inconvenient_truths_about_the_us_and_slavery
Here is Sadly, No! take "Pick a bale of stupid" http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/7272.html
Sorry for getting more and more off-topic. Of course, the Holocaust, Slavery, Darwin, Bein Sein, Mike Medved, Nazism, Atheism are utterly unrelated topics.
Ed T · 18 April 2008
Robin · 18 April 2008
James F · 18 April 2008
Dave C · 18 April 2008
"...and have a lively evening centered around this intersection of science and faith."
Yeah, and we could call it "Crossroads" and invite biology profess...
...wait a minute!
Randy · 18 April 2008
Marilyn · 18 April 2008
Keith: "Then go get vaccinated against being bitten by rabid bats."
I'm already vaccinated against rabies, since exposure to rabies virus is an occupational hazard of mine. If it was up to the likes of Keith and other anti-science types, we wouldn't have vaccines against rabies or anything else. We'd still have an expected lifespan of less than 30 years. But what the hay? To fervent religious believers like Keith,life on Earth is just a pesky delay in getting to Paradise anyway.
I still can't figure why the IDists didn't spend their money making a movie that actually states what the theory of intelligent design is and lays out all the "suppressed" evidence that supports it. Hmmm-could it be because all the fakery they could muster would not enable them to accomplish THAT?
keith · 18 April 2008
I see the liars club is still in play.
http://movies.go.com/the-passion-of-the-christ/d778005/drama
The link to the movies.go.com gives the overall review for Passion as C from reviewers and B+ from viewers.
For expelled the reviewers are C and viewers are A.
Ellaz: I have said before that my two degrees are B. S. Engineering Physics and M.S. Systems Engineering and currently in a MS Liberal Studies with emphasis in History of Science (retirement project for fun and fulfillment).
Engr. in Defense Industry, Operations Research Analyst/ Technical Supervisor in Energy Business, MIS several positions, V.P. MIS for Energy Co., Consultant to Higher Ed Community College Training Programs. Retirement
Also Certified Commercial Appraiser
The reason evolution beyond microevolution within narrow types has always been BS to me is the more one examines life, the cell, the universe, etc. the clearer it is that the methods of evolution write large are completely at odds with all human experience, laws of physics, math, information theory and lack any degree of credibility.
Experienced engineers know that highly integrated, multi-component heterogeneous systems replete with strict interface requirements, communication protocols, codes, quality control elements, sensory perceptive feedback elements can not and have not ever been developed by any evolutionary methods in human experience and all attempts to do so have been abject failures.
Interrobang · 18 April 2008
Oy, Medved is dumber than I was giving him discredit for. Although I'm only a pro-am historian and my area of expertise isn't slavery in the US, I was playing the fun home game of "Spot the Lie/Half-Truth/Distortion" in his apologia for slavery. I guess he's been wrong so long, he looks like right(-wing) to me...
Sam · 18 April 2008
Keith: try checking out the 'n' on your source's measurements, especially note how many ratings were averaged to arrive at the 'C' given by critics.
Since you make a point out how well educated you are, perhaps you can see the statistical flaw in your arguments.
Dean Wentworth · 18 April 2008
Keith,
The fact that you can't correctly spell gardener, raisin, or vaccinated makes your academic and professional accomplishments even more impressive.
Robin · 18 April 2008
Dave K · 18 April 2008
Uh, Keith, on that site you linked to, Expelled gets a C from critics and a D+ (not an A) from viewers. I guess you must think you can just make stuff up with impunity, huh?
Richard Simons · 18 April 2008
PvM · 18 April 2008
PvM · 18 April 2008
Seems that Keith's link to Movies.com may have caused it to precipitously drop in ranking. Thanks Keith for your help.
prof weird · 18 April 2008
Magical Skymanism'Intelligent' Design, in which case his WORD is irrefutable !!" The gardener probably quit because he could no longer tolerate the stench of prevarication coming from Expelled (far, far worse than manure, which is actually useful). I have a Master's Degree in biology with 15 years experience working with DNA; do you have even a passing acquaintance with biology or REAL science, keith ? Typical moron - it was FIELD WORK that provided the EVIDENCE that Darwin used for Origin of Species in the first place; all later lab work has supported evolution. Still under the delusion that 'Expelled' is a threat, eh ? The main problem about REALITY is that is simply won't go away - if every sane person/evo accepter were killed and everything about evolution destroyed, the MET could still be re-discovered by examining the real world. Unless, of course, the theocracy forbids actually examining the real world, and insists everyone examine carefully selected screeds instead. How long have you had these delusions of persecution, and violent fantasies ? Why, EXACTLY, are the lawsuits 'junk' ? Because thieves and liars must prosper ? Because they show that keith is - GASP !!! - wrong about something ? What threats ? What picketing ? You seem to be under the delusion that Expelled is important enough to stop. It isn't - it is FAR better for it to be viewed so everyone can see just what a craptacular lie-fest it really is. Reviews aren't so good when the producers can't control who sees the movie, are they ? You seem to be running the 'Impending Victory' bluff : "since evolution will be overturned Any Day Now, it would be in your best interest to simply give up !! Really, it is ! Really !!! IT IS !!!!!!" The idea is to trick the reality-based community into giving up the fight, since there is no way creationism/'intelligent' design can win a fair, evidence-based fight. It didn't work for Baghdad Bob; why should it work for you ? Independence from what ? A full stomach when people retch at seeing the movie ? A full wallet when people have to actually PAY to be exposed to such dreck ? You still have the silly idea that this silly movie will actually DO or MEAN anything at all ? The most that will happen is platoons of brain-eating manure golems will stagger from the theatres and begin infesting science blogs with drivel debunked years (if not decades) ago. It may take weeks for the stench from the self-martyred to fadeShebardigan · 18 April 2008
jasonmitchell · 18 April 2008
I think there should be a corollary of Godwin's law:
"As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
where the probability that a crackpot commenting on about a field outside of his/her expertise will turn out to be an engineer is directly proportionate the his/her degree of nuttiness
fxntr · 18 April 2008
To a man with a CAD program, a soldering iron, and possible lead poisoning, everything looks like a designed circuit.
Shebardigan · 18 April 2008
keith · 18 April 2008
Biology is real science, the aberration of evolution writ large is a parasite enabled by philosophical atheism straining to find a credible hypothesis to justify their pitiful belief system.
I took biology in HS and found it so simplistic that I at once went the engineering route and after 48 hrs of physics, 24 hours of chemistry, 42 hours of math, 12 hours of O.R. and 16 hours of MIS plus various business classes amounting to 22 hours I have no regrets.
Dumb Butts there were 14 reviews for the Passion film. D
See lighting a Bunsen burner and cutting a up a frog is not exactly rocket science, HS grads digging up bones in east Africa is really wowy, and bird beaks coming and going is really astounding, to say nothing of moths glued to trees getting sooty.
Biology is great, evolution has zippo to do with any significant advance in real science, it is all in your petrified imaginations.
Rick R · 18 April 2008
I love you, Keith. Seriously. Are you married?
You make me laugh.
J. Biggs · 18 April 2008
UnMark · 18 April 2008
It's my most unfortuante experience as an engineer (with a degree in Engineerg Physics as well...) that the more maladroit an engineer is, the more managerial responsibilities they are given to which they apply a whole new set of ineptitudes.
Dean Wentworth · 18 April 2008
Being an engineer myself, this hurts, but I feel compelled to support jasonmitchell's idea about a corollary to Godwin's law.
Keith,
I've worked with many engineers of your ilk, who cavalierly dismiss entire fields of science about which they know less than nothing.
I took high school biology too. What I mostly remember is the girl with the cute ass who sat next to me. Fortunately, I went on to get a B.S. in biological oceanography, so I learned enough biology to know that only an arrogant fool would call it "simplistic."
prof weird · 18 April 2008
The Puritan · 18 April 2008
From goo to you by the way of the zoo.
Richard Simons · 18 April 2008
UnMark · 18 April 2008
Credit hours, I presume.
keith · 19 April 2008
See ipso facto only a brain trust of morons would assume a reference to hours in academia would think clock hours.
Stochastic circuit design lets see transistors, resisters, inductors, capacitors, rectifiers...maybe 12 component types driven by search space limiting assumptions, goal searching and optimization algorithms, defined objective functions and all programmed by yesireee a group of intelligent programmers using codes developed by yesiree intelligent software engineers, hardware engineers, etc. All designed...get it designed.
Yeah this is a great analogy to say a cell, an airborne avionics system, an auto assembly plant, a Saturn rocket, an insulin producing assembly or such.
Corresponding with evolanders is like reading the script from a Bevis and Butthead cartoon.
There are clinics that deal with brainwashing and I can refer your team to several.
PvM · 19 April 2008
PvM · 19 April 2008
Richard Simons · 19 April 2008
Shebardigan · 19 April 2008
Torbjörn Larsson, OM · 19 April 2008
Torbjörn Larsson, OM · 19 April 2008
Dave Thomas · 19 April 2008
J. Biggs · 21 April 2008
dhogaza · 22 April 2008
Why do people respond to Keith? Why hasn't he been moved someplace more appropriate, i.e. the bathroom wall? He's not even an entertaining speling be fayling trol.