PZ Myers: Basics: How can chromosome numbers change?

So could we at least calculate the DNA of the common ancestor to the chimps and the humnas? Even if we could not construct one today, may be sometime in the future we could, (warning: pun ahead) conceivably construct it and may even bring to life in a borrowed chimp womb. Would that be ethical to bring to life an Australopithecus africanus?

For the viewers of this post that have not clicked through to Pharyngula to read this tutorial, you are missing a well written, easy to understand description.

It is one thing to write a treatise on this stuff, it is quite another to write one that people like me can clearly understand and eagerly read to its finish without my eyes glazing over.

Thank you PZ.

If only there were some employment opportunity somewhere in the world where PZ could help with the public understanding of science.

Genet Res. 2005 Dec;86(3):171-83. Epub 2005 Nov 23. Links Chromosomal phylogeny of Robertsonian races of the house mouse on the island of Madeira: testing between alternative mutational processes.Britton-Davidian J, Catalan J, da Graça Ramalhinho M, Auffray JC, Claudia Nunes A, Gazave E, Searle JB, da Luz Mathias M. Institut des Sciences de l'Evolution, UMR 5554, Laboratoire Génétique et Environnement, CC65, Université Montpellier II, France. The ancestral karyotype of the house mouse (Mus musculus) consists of 40 acrocentric chromosomes, but numerous races exist within the domesticus subspecies characterized by different metacentric chromosomes formed by the joining at the centromere of two acrocentrics. An exemplary case is present on the island of Madeira where six highly divergent chromosomal races have accumulated different combinations of 20 metacentrics in 500-1000 years. Chromosomal cladistic phylogenies were performed to test the relative performance of Robertsonian (Rb) fusions, Rb fissions and whole-arm reciprocal translocations (WARTs) in resolving relationships between the chromosomal races. The different trees yielded roughly similar topologies, but varied in the number of steps and branch support. The analyses using Rb fusions/fissions as characters resulted in poorly supported trees requiring six to eight homoplasious events. Allowance for WARTs considerably increased nodal support and yielded the most parsimonious trees since homoplasy was reduced to a single event. The WART-based trees required five to nine WARTs and 12 to 16 Rb fusions. These analyses provide support for the role of WARTs in generating the extensive chromosomal diversification observed in house mice. The repeated occurrence of Rb fusions and WARTs highlights the contribution of centromere-related rearrangements to accelerated rates of chromosomal change in the house mouse.

raven,

The Madeira mice are not unusual. In fact over 100 populations of mice have been identified in western Europe with Robertsonian fusion chromosmes. A common phenomenon.

bump

Changes to molecular/atomic structures of the 'control' centers of living things are brought about through procedures of physical chemistry, of which modern technology has barely caught a glimpse. Having said that, we may note that modern technology is giving some very strong hints. Once the hints evolve to solid facts, and the actual hands-on physical chemistry is known, the evolution debate will fade away and science will then be free to go on without people claiming science as their own personal justification for anything - except technologic facts.

Rain causes seeds to strike. Time allows eggs to hatch. Warmth increases the speed with which some things grow. Rain, warmth, and time are factors in the evidencing of life. They do not create life.
Chromosomes and many other micro-structures change as a result of environmental factors. Just like seeds, eggs, maggots - they are influenced by environment. The environment neither creates them, nor, purely of itself, modifies them. Information capacity inherent in the structures, interacting with the environment, enables change.

SCIENCEDAILY, today, features an exciting article on quantum information systems. A primitive quantum technology information system has been employed in an election in Switzerland. Chromosomes and what have you theoretically are modifiable via technology of this category. New developments are being catalogued, almost daily. These new developments tell us that information technology is right there - in the cell.

The wind, the sun, the rain - all were factors in chromosome change. The change happened when atoms were re-arranged according to quantifiable processes of physics. When the physicists give the mathematically expressible pathway, all contention will cease. I'd suggest getting in early. Mathematics is neither personal, political, contentious, nor religious. But the cause of change in the biosphere will no longer be unquantified chance, but hands-on, quantifiable, information technology. Suit oneself as to whether the information arrived by chance or design - it will be unnecessary to demand either option. The latter option, however, is not 'expelled'. Origins science returns to neutral ground, where it always should have been.

Chromosomes and what have you theoretically are modifiable via technology of this category.

These new developments tell us that information technology is right there - in the cell.

The change happened when atoms were re-arranged according to quantifiable processes of physics.

Dear PT readers.

Please ignore Philip Heywood. He has had his garbage corrected several times in the past month or two, and refuses to acknowledge those corrections. He refuses to acknowledge and address his ignorance of biology. Yet he also refuses to recognise the expertise of the experts.

I no longer believe that PBH is an honest seeker of answers.

I didn't write SCIENCEDAILY, SPACEDAILY, NEWSCIENTIST, ETC. ETC.. Scientists did. Evolutionary scientists, many of them. These scientists advize me that DNA has a database of four. That's multiple database, that's quantum information category. According to evolutionists - which one assumes some attendees on this site wish to be - DNA and other micro-devices in cells, are programmable and re-programmable. If not, evolution could not happen. H bonds (not bombs) in water are pivotal to the functioning and re-programming of these micro-devices. Photons, which are a form of matter, information, and energy, all at once, theoretically can be utilized to re-arrange atoms in such devices. Quantum physics. Rational science. Find how environmental conditions are read by the devices, and keep Darwin's ball rolling. Dust doesn't give birth to lice, it only appears that way. Get out the microscope and find out what really happens.

Dear PT readers. Please ignore Philip Heywood. He has had his garbage corrected several times in the past month or two, and refuses to acknowledge those corrections. He refuses to acknowledge and address his ignorance of biology. Yet he also refuses to recognise the expertise of the experts.

I recently visited PBH's site. What a bizarre collection of rubbish! I was particularly taken by 'the sun, moon and earth are implicated in an [sic] highly sophisticated intelligence storage and transmission system.'

PBH said: These scientists advize me that DNA has a database of four. That’s multiple database, that’s quantum information category.

I'ts a wonder this trio isn't standing for President. Mr. Elzinga denies classical thermodynamics (his previous entries show he does not allow an entropy barrier to certain chemical processes, contrary to centuries of accumulated research results!): Mr Simons has just now thrown mud on standard evolutionary thinking - namely, that environment, to which the sun, moon, and earth, are pivotal, do not in some as yet not fully understood way, impart information into the biosphere (some animals orient themselves and migrate courtesy of the effect on light, of our magnetic field): and Mr. Larrson, having previously trashed the work of respected historians and researchers alike, as he saw fit, now relegates the landmark deductions of Dr. Glover over at IBM to the same trash can, and shows without a glimmer of uncertainty that NEWSCIENTIST is edited by ditherers.

Perhaps we should all do a low CONGEE, and remove ourselves backwards from the godalmighty presence of such august genius?

Perhaps we should all do a low CONGEE, and remove ourselves backwards from the godalmighty presence of such august genius?

Oh, Mike, stop tippy-toeing and tell us what you really think. :-)

fnxtr said: Oh, Mike, stop tippy-toeing and tell us what you really think. :-)

Correction: that's Grover, not Glover. Lov. Grover. I assume he holds at least a Ph.D.. NEW SCIENTIST, 15TH April, 2000. Page 21 and following. Recommend it. Why is that word, Grover, troubling the subconscious? The mysteries of life.

Philip Bruce Heywood said: [blah, blah, blah] entropy barrier

Philip Bruce Heywood said: [blah, blah, blah] impart information into the biosphere

Philip Bruce Heywood said: Mr. Larrson, having previously trashed the work of respected historians and researchers alike, as he saw fit, now relegates the landmark deductions of Dr. Glover over at IBM to the same trash can, and shows without a glimmer of uncertainty that NEWSCIENTIST is edited by ditherers.

Congratulations, PBH! You are misquoting again. I made absolutely no mention of 'information'.

When are you going to get around to apologizing to J Biggs and I for lying about what we said?

BTW. That's Dr. Simons to you.

Richard Simons said: Congratulations, PBH! You are misquoting again. I made absolutely no mention of 'information'. When are you going to get around to apologizing to J Biggs and I for lying about what we said? BTW. That's Dr. Simons to you.

Philip Bruce Heywood said: Lov. Grover.

On a related note, it is yet again apparent how well Tegmark's paper corresponds as a basic "talkorigins" reference debunking old and tired repeated ad nauseam quantum woo of PBH's type.

For example, trying to track Patel's work I stumbled on a many author paper that was "out there", surpassing PBH in fact. They discussed quantum soliton waves that quantum magically teleported "read of" information from the DNA to everywhere they felt it "needed", i.e. where their ignorance was situated. It wasn't quite readable, but you just wave Tegmark's reference at it and it disappears in a Poof! of hot vapors until it proves itself.

Btw, I'm amazed that PBH missed that obvious woo trick. After all, quantum teleportation is a real phenomena. :-P

Congratulations, PBH! You are misquoting again. I made absolutely no mention of ‘information’.

Keep it simple, keep it simple. Someone may actually be interested in the topic.

I note fnxtr's more detached previous comment. Stepping back and thinking goes a long way in science. I wish I could start handing out detached thinking badges, right now.

Dr. Simons: Intelligence, in my OXFORD CONCISE DICTIONARY, has information listed as a meaning. Your other claims, regarding lying on my part, are based on similar nit-pick, as any reader of these pages can find out for themselves.

M. Elzinga: I shall once again attempt to explain the basic high-school concept of entropy to you. Consider a simple endothermic reaction such as dissolution of urea in water. The reaction site gets cold. Something inherent in the urea makes it so 'desperate' to get disordered, through dissolving, that heat is absorbed. As you know, making things cold requires energy. Refrigerators require energy. In the case of endothermic reactions, entropy - having to do with organization, if you like - overrides enthalpy - having to do with raw heat energy content - and powers the reagents into increased disorder, despite the need to draw in heat from the remainder of the universe.
Classical entropy/enthalpy measurements prove that life cannot arise spontaneously and living things cannot increase in organization, WITHOUT SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES. Enter quantum physics, and other new discoveries.

For fear of which new discoveries T. Larsson is hiding under the bed, and is ready to claim they don't meet the requirements, when all that is missing is the time and effort to show how the quantum age ends the origins controversy. The Great South Land of Australia was here, just as much when a few dutchmen touched on parts of it, as when Flinders finally charted the entire coastline. Quantum information and all its implications aren't going to cease to exist, and can only become more understood.

Consider a simple endothermic reaction such as dissolution of urea in water. The reaction site gets cold. Something inherent in the urea makes it so ‘desperate’ to get disordered, through dissolving, that heat is absorbed. As you know, making things cold requires energy.

Mixing salt with ice in an ice cream maker also lowers the temperature of the salt…

Philip Bruce Heywood said: Stepping back and thinking goes a long way in science.

Philip Bruce Heywood said: Something inherent in the urea makes it so ‘desperate’ to get disordered

Philip Bruce Heywood said: For fear of which new discoveries T. Larsson is hiding under the bed,

Torbjörn Larsson said: How is this attempt of empirical science “landmark”, “deductions” or “of Dr. Glover [sic]”? And yes, it is also pretty well known that NS nowadays is edited by “ditherers” as it were, pandering to sensationalist readership instead of scientists. Are you claiming you didn’t know this? It is pretty basic to know one’s sources.

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