Freshwater Termination Resolution

I would have thought that intentionally burning a student would be grounds enough for termination, and I don't understand why it took so long. Freshwater never denied that he burned the student and whether it was an X, Y, Z or cross would not be the issue.

What a vicious, shitty teacher, and a prime example of everything that makes the typical Xian rightfully the object of disgust by any decent human being.

People like these have every right to be absolute assholes, but we have every right to remove them from the classrooms when they show contempt for everything but their own twisted obsessions.

It is REALLY a drag to live in a time when the opposition is so unworthy of the least respect, when they are simply evil and/or crazy.

There is probably some way to bring criminal charges against Freshwater, and maybe even some way to select a jury based on their reactions to the Hovind-parroting he drilled into his suckers, since they were required by law to become obvious victims. I truly believe he deserves life without parole.

Termination is probably temporary. He will probably leverage it into Big Bux auctioning himself off to the highest bidder in Louisiana. Still, due process must be respected. We can't place ourselves into the same category as those who assassinate abortion doctors.

While the Board was in executive session I spent some time talking with several of Freshwater’s former students. They spouted the very worst of creationist crap – moon dust, the recession of the moon, SLoT, the Lady Hope fable, and so on – stuff that’s even on AIG’s list of “Arguments Creationists Shouldn’t Use.” One of them even quoted Kent Hovind to me! When I mentioned that Hovind is in jail for tax evasion, they denied it, saying it was because he preached the Bible. It was discouraging and angering to hear their absolute close-minded parroting of the pure crap generated by Freshwater, Hovind, and Ham. Those kids are genuinely doomed to a life of intellectual sterility and it is a terrible terrible waste.

Now that Freshwater's burning of a student's arm is officially on the public record - and in the local media - when are the Mt. Vernon police going to fulfill their sworn duty and arrest the perpetrator?

Or are they going to continue to pull a Pelosi?

"Or are they going to continue to pull a Pelosi?"

WTF?

Joel said: "Or are they going to continue to pull a Pelosi?" WTF?

Joel said: "Or are they going to continue to pull a Pelosi?" WTF?

One June 5th, William Dembski wrote on his blog

Colorado Governor Bill Ritter’s signing of a transgender anti-discrimination bill points up the lunacy that ensues in a world without design (see here).

Shall we take it that burning students with crosses points to the lunacy that ensues in a world WITH design? Using pure and simple Dembski logic, that is.

Hawks said: One June 5th, William Dembski wrote on his blog Colorado Governor Bill Ritter’s signing of a transgender anti-discrimination bill points up the lunacy that ensues in a world without design (see here). Shall we take it that burning students with crosses points to the lunacy that ensues in a world WITH design? Using pure and simple Dembski logic, that is.

Given clear evidence of “high crimes and misdemeanors”, Speaker of the House Pelosi has refused to even consider performing her explicit duty under the Constitution to begin impeachment proceedings, but has acted to suppress efforts at same.

Interesting, they arguments presented by Freshwater and his attorney amounted to "I have had this Bible on my desk for 21 years" and "I was taught how to use the device to burn crosses on the forearms of students by another teacher".

Somehow that excuses all this?

According to the board resolution to terminate Freshwater's employment,

"Freshwater taught material on thermodynamics, the Big Bang, the age of the earth, and the periodic table that is not in the approved curriculum or American Content Standards."

We are familiar with creationist denial of the facts of biology and geology, and I have come across creationist attempts to rewrite cosmology by saying that the speed of light has changed over time or that photons get tired on their journey, but thermodynamics and the periodic table?

What next? A four cornered earth? Pi equal to three?

Paul Braterman said: According to the board resolution to terminate Freshwater's employment, "Freshwater taught material on thermodynamics, the Big Bang, the age of the earth, and the periodic table that is not in the approved curriculum or American Content Standards."

We are familiar with creationist denial of the facts of biology and geology, and I have come across creationist attempts to rewrite cosmology by saying that the speed of light has changed over time or that photons get tired on their journey, but thermodynamics and the periodic table? What next? A four cornered earth? Pi equal to three?

Bubba Von Grubba said: There are some evolutionists who will admit to a four-cornered earth. Check out this site to read all about it. Evolutionists who arrogantly deny the truth of God's Word are often embarrassed when one of their own finds evidence confirming it!

I'm sorry, Bubba (how appropriate if you're not a Poe), I wasn't aware that somebody was stopping you from praticing your religion. Did the Evilutionists storm your home or your church when they took away your Bible? You really should contact the ACLU because they'll defend your right to practice religion at home or church or anywhere it doesn't violate the Establishment Clause. Now, then, if you want your brand of religion foisted upon other peoples' children in publicly funded schools you're screwed. Sorry 'bout that. But, again, you can teach your religion as "scientific fact" in your home or in your church which is, oddly enough, basically funded by everybody else since it's tax-exempt. Yes, Evilutionists are picking up the tab for you. Doesn't that make you smile?

Not that I'm in the habit of giving advice to the DI or other places, but you'd have to be a complete moron to try and make this guy your martyr poster child. You lose at least half of the people who might be sympathetic as soon as you mention burning the cross on the kids arm. On the other hand it does point out a serious aversion that districts have in regards to removing teachers that are not up to par.

Bubba Von Grubba said: There are some evolutionists who will admit to a four-cornered earth. Check out this site to read all about it. Evolutionists who arrogantly deny the truth of God's Word are often embarrassed when one of their own finds evidence confirming it!

Interesting, they arguments presented by Freshwater and his attorney amounted to “I have had this Bible on my desk for 21 years” and “I was taught how to use the device to burn crosses on the forearms of students by another teacher”. Somehow that excuses all this?

— PvM

Not that I’m in the habit of giving advice to the DI or other places, but you’d have to be a complete moron to try and make this guy your martyr poster child.

— JGB

What was the point the teacher was making by burning a cross on a kid's arm anyway?

Heat can burn skin and scar it with enough exposure but everyone already knows that.

What is next, a demonstration that sharp edged metal blades can cut flesh?

Does anyone know what Freshwater was teaching about the periodic table? I've been trying to get info about this but had no success.

Joel | June 20, 2008 9:01 PM | Reply “Or are they going to continue to pull a Pelosi?” WTF?

Bubba Von Grubba said:

Paul Braterman said: According to the board resolution to terminate Freshwater's employment, "Freshwater taught material on thermodynamics, the Big Bang, the age of the earth, and the periodic table that is not in the approved curriculum or American Content Standards."

Blah, blah, blah. What happened to freedom of religion? Why is it somehow illegal to teach things the high priesthood of evolutionism has deemed to be heresies? Christians are taxpayers too and our voice deserves a place in anything called "American Content Standards!"

We are familiar with creationist denial of the facts of biology and geology, and I have come across creationist attempts to rewrite cosmology by saying that the speed of light has changed over time or that photons get tired on their journey, but thermodynamics and the periodic table? What next? A four cornered earth? Pi equal to three?

There are some evolutionists who will admit to a four-cornered earth. Check out this site to read all about it. Evolutionists who arrogantly deny the truth of God's Word are often embarrassed when one of their own finds evidence confirming it!

This guy is a parody, right?

Coach Dave has been contacted by, and has agreed to appear on The Geraldo Rivera show on Fox News Saturday night at 10:00 EST. The producers of the show contacted Coach and invited him on the show to defend his friend John Freshwater in the much publicized events in Mt. Vernon, Ohio. The producers of the show questioned why it was so hard to find someone who would defend John and Coach Dave jumped at the chance to help clear Mr. Freshwater's name.

Joshua Zelinsky said: Does anyone know what Freshwater was teaching about the periodic table? I've been trying to get info about this but had no success.

Paul Braterman and Joshua - they bring up the periodic table as part of the "anthropic principal", the universe is structured in a way that makes human life possible. Gravity, the elements present, the distance we are from the sun, temperature on Earth, all the physical constants of nature had to be very precise for life to occur as we know it. Their statement is it could not have happened by chance all at once.

The elements on the periodic table have their properties by "design", to form more complex designed compounds, etc. That is probably where Freshwater was going with the periodic table. They don't consider the more scientific, we are suited to be in this universe, and it didn't happen in a flash, but took billions of years for it all to occur.

Pierce R. Butler said: Hot news for Freshwater fans: according to Pass the Salt Ministries...

raven said: Everyone knows the earth is shaped like a frisbee :>).

JJ said: Paul Braterman and Joshua - they bring up the periodic table as part of the "anthropic principal", the universe is structured in a way that makes human life possible. Gravity, the elements present, the distance we are from the sun, temperature on Earth, all the physical constants of nature had to be very precise for life to occur as we know it. Their statement is it could not have happened by chance all at once.

1. Freshwater burned crosses in students’ arms using a high voltage, high frequency leak detection device, ignoring the manufacturer’s safety instructions associated with the device.

This alone should get him fired, whether or not he violated the Establishment Clause by preaching in a public school, and whether the images were of crosses, crescents, pentagrams, or Mickey Mouse. If I were the parent of one of these students, I'd press charges. If that didn't go anywhere, I'd sue the b*st*rd.

Good example of Poe's law...

When I first became aware of ID/creationism, I toyed with the idea of setting up a parody site claiming that the periodic table of elements was false and blasphemous.

JJ said: Paul Braterman and Joshua - they bring up the periodic table as part of the "anthropic principal", the universe is structured in a way that makes human life possible. Gravity, the elements present, the distance we are from the sun, temperature on Earth, all the physical constants of nature had to be very precise for life to occur as we know it. Their statement is it could not have happened by chance all at once. The elements on the periodic table have their properties by "design", to form more complex designed compounds, etc. That is probably where Freshwater was going with the periodic table. They don't consider the more scientific, we are suited to be in this universe, and it didn't happen in a flash, but took billions of years for it all to occur.

What might get Freshwater in even more trouble with the fundies is his insistence that the cross was merely an "X." They are never supposed to deny their faith; especially not for the purpose of avoiding trouble, and that's the only explanation for this lie that I can think of.

If I'm right, this speaks to an odd mindset: he apparently thought either that he could get away with the other things, or that they were the right thing to do, but not so for the crosses-on-the-arms trick.

There should be no doubt in the minds of all Americans that the Executive Branch has committed dozens, if not scores, of crimes and Constitutional Violations. Rather than throw the bum via the Impeachment Process, Pelosi has steadfastly refused to exercise her Constitutional duty.

Geraldo was great! He let Dave Doobenmire (as he called him) have it!

Flint said:... But it's also possible (and politically realistic) to recognize that Pelosi simply does not have the votes to get an impeachment, much less a conviction - which would take more time than Bush has left in office in any case. ... it surely would be political suicide. ... there is simply no wide public perception that Bush has been criminal or corrupt. ... Impeachment is not a legal process, it's a purely political process. The public perception of Bush, poor as it is, does NOT support impeachment. Senators will not support impeachment if their constituents do not, regardless of the number or severity of Bush's Constitutional violations.

Pelosi also has the problem that to do things right, they'd also have to impeach Cheney at the same time. There are a lot of poeple who would think that this was just Pelosi being politically ambitious, since if they were both then convicted, it would make Pelosi President...

wonderin said: Geraldo was great! He let Dave Doobenmire (as he called him) have it!

I've updated the post to include the Geraldo material.

RBH said: I've updated the post to include the Geraldo material.

raven said: What was the point the teacher was making by burning a cross on a kid's arm anyway?

8th graders are typically 13 years old at the start of the school year, 13 or 14 at the end.

I didn't see anyone address the question raised about the laws of thermodynamics and how they may have been mis-taught. I've seen two different misuses. First, it's sometimes argued that the laws of thermodynamics preclude the Big Bang, since they state that energy (or more accurately, mass-energy) cannot be created or destroyed.

Secondly, and more commonly, the Second Law is claimed to preclude evolution, since it insists that entropy must always increase and that therefore complexity cannot increase within a system.

Needless to say, both these claims are utterly baseless and betray a deeply flawed understanding of thermodynamics. For example, if the second claim were true, it would be impossible for a fertilized egg to develop into a mature human.

Donnie B. said: Secondly, and more commonly, the Second Law is claimed to preclude evolution, since it insists that entropy must always increase and that therefore complexity cannot increase within a system.

I’ve updated the post to include the Geraldo material.

— RBH

Frank J said: Aha! I knew there was something strangely familiar about ID. It's Al Capone's vault all over again.

"It’s Al Capone’s vault all over again."

In one of history's little ironies, Kent Hovind is in jail convicted of the exact same charges as Al himself - tax evasion.

I have no idea whether God has a sense of humour, but it seems to me that the Internal Revenue might.

harold said: I toyed with the idea of setting up a parody site claiming that the periodic table of elements was false and blasphemous.

Apparently Daubenmire is a full time nut. I was searching for the Geraldo clip and ran across this from an article about a protest over Terry Schiavo:

======

Dave Daubenmire says he was sitting in church Sunday in Hebron, Ohio, when the spirit suddenly moved him to come to Florida. A man in the congregation wrote him a $716 check on the spot and told him: "We need you down there."

Wearing a blue baseball cap with a red cross, the 52-year-old former high school football coach considers himself a "coach for the church."

He goes wherever he thinks the nation's Judeo-Christian values are under attack; he says he spent seven days on the steps of Alabama's judicial building in Montgomery, supporting Justice Roy Moore's (search) defiance of a federal order to remove a two-ton Ten Commandments monument.

That order was enforced, the monument was moved and Moore was eventually expelled from office.

"Those of us in faith have been missing in action," Daubenmire says. "How come Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson aren't laying in front of that door over there? If they really believe a woman is being murdered, where is the church?"

======

Gotta admire the willingness to walk the walk, even if it is horribly misplaced.

When I try to submit a comment, I get the message

An Error Occurred:

But it doesn't say what error it was. If I try to re-submit, it says I've tried to submit too many comments in a short period of time. If I wait, I can repeat this entire cycle. My comment never appears. What gives?

All this assumes that US public opinion is stuck in dried mud, and that a serious round of hearings on all the crimes of the Bush administration would leave things exactly as they are. Maybe so, for the isolated and provincial inhabitants of the Beltway and the broadcast studios - but anybody who really cared about the Constitution, and about America, would undertake the legal process of impeachment, even without a safe, guaranteed outcome, because the results of letting such a crime wave go unimpeded mean that next time, it will only be worse.

Paragraph #2

Amazing as it may sound to the non-politician, it is the business of politicians to know which battles are worth fighting and which ones are quixotic. There's a natural selection involved as well - those politicians who do NOT have an instinct for this, don't get elected or survive long.

Paragraph #3

The misunderstanding that impeachment is a legal rather than a political process is a dead giveaway - it is NOT a legal process except insofar as there are provisions for it in the Constitution. But there are no particular rules of evidence, there are no appeals procedures in the ordinary legal sense. The judges and jury - the Senate - is answerable only to their constituency, and only at the next election. However, if there is any really serious broad-based public support, the process can get started.

Paragraph #4

Broad-based public support takes some flash point (and there isn't one, there's only a generalized dissatisfaction with the war and the economy) around which it can be mobilized. Consider Freshwater - he was feeding kids total bullshit, and permanently crippling their minds, for years. In comparison, branding kids with crosses is almost insignificant, yet it was something obvious and flagrant that could be used to rile people up. And once something like that happens, his other sins become something people can object to.

Paragraph #5 (won't submit. OK, One sentence at a time...)

Sentence #1

An attempt to impeach Bush would not leave things exactly as they are.

Sentence #2

I expect it would discredit the Democrats,

Sentence 2 clause 2:
guarantee McCain's election,

Sentence 2 clause 3 part 1

mobilize the public to regard the media as engaging

Sentence 2 clause 3 part 2

in a witch

Sentence 2 clause 3 part 3

hunt against Bush for economic conditions beyond his control, and generally backfire hugely.

Sentence 3

That's how the popular dynamic works. So the Democratic power structure (not just Pelosi) is doing everything possible to quash even the mention of impeachment. In today's political climate, that would only come across as petty, vicious, unnecessary (Bush is gone next January regardless) and vengeful. The public would rally to the underdog. Pelosi knows this.

Apparently, a hyphen between the word witch and the word hunt was causing the unspecified error. Weird, man.

Its an RF (radio frequency) burn from a Tesla coil - it really is, and amazingly so, quite painless, since it happens only in the last few microns of skin, above any sensors for pain.

We are religious people, but we were offended when Mr. Freshwater burned a cross onto the arm of our child. This was done in science class in December 2007, where an electric shock machine was used to burn our child. The burn was severe enough that our child awoke that night with severe pain, and the cross remained there for several weeks. We have tried to keep this a private matter and hesitate to tell the whole story to the media for fear that we will be retaliated against. We are Christians who practice our faith where it belongs, at church and in our home and, most importantly, outside the public classroom, where the law requires a separation of church and state.

And that's why my email box wound up with dozens of "Flint comments! :)

JohnK said: The periodic table of that immoral bigamist Medeleev? The re-Discovery Institute beat you to it.

Dave Daubenmire is a life-long dirtbag who I've been writing about for a while. I am not surprised that his threw in his stupid-looking hat with Freshwater.

HJ

raven said: Oops. Sounds like satan was fooling around with this teachers RF generating Tesla coil. Apparently the "painless" superficial wound wasn't so painless or superficial.

Here is the post that was put up at Pam's House Blend: Daubenmire Sentenced on Child Pornography Charge (Son of Pro-Life, Pro-Values Crusader) Columbus Dispatch ^ | 2/27/07 Posted on 02/27/2007 8:10:47 AM PST by joesbucks NEWARK, Ohio -- The 24-year-old son of conservative religious activist David Daubenmire will spend the next five years on probation after a Licking County judge convicted him on a child-pornography charge. At a hearing this morning, Zachary Daubenmire pleaded no contest to a felony charge of pandering obscenity involving a minor. Common Pleas Court Judge Thomas Marcelain convicted him on the charge and immediately sentenced him. Daubenmire, whose father has fought pornography as the founder of Pass the Salt Ministries and Minutemen United, also was fined $1,000 and must spend two years in prison if he violates terms of his probation. He could have received a maximum of eight years in prison. The judge also designated him as a sexually-oriented offender. Marcelain said in court that he thinks the younger Daubenmire showed genuine remorse and is in now in counseling for an addiction that he told the judge began when he was 15. Authorities found 37 still images and 26 movies depicting young girls enaging in sex with men on the family's home computer. A computer repair technician discovered the pornography last August. David Daubenmire is a former head football coach at London High School. He gained national attention in 1999 after the American Civil Liberties Union sued the school district to stop the coach from leading his team in prayer. Zachary Daubenmire was a star quarterback at London. He went on to play football at Kenyon College and Denison University and became a teacher and coach. He has since resigned from those positions. It was Newark not Lancaster.

Raven - thanks for posting that. Never ceases to amaze me, what these zealots are into, but it doesn't surprise me. Maybe we can make that family our "poster child" for our upcoming fight in Texas.

Authorities found 37 still images and 26 movies depicting young girls enaging in sex with men on the family’s home computer.

My goodness, what's got everyone's glut in such a bunch?

John Freshwater has been doing this science experiment for years and suddenly, when he tries to offer alternatives to an unproven theory, it is quickly (and conveniently) discovered that he has been "branding" (what an interesting choice of words) students in the backroom of his class.

Come one folks, you are smarter than that . . . aren't you?

Harrison

Other way around, Freshwater has been presenting the creationist crap for years, only recently started branding children.

Guess Daubenmire was a failure at raising his own child, so he thinks he needs to give it a try with other people's children.

The kid was probably taking the fall for the dad in the pron case.

Harrison: John Freshwater has been doing this science experiment for years and suddenly, when he tries to offer alternatives to an unproven theory, it is quickly (and conveniently) discovered that he has been “branding” (what an interesting choice of words) students in the backroom of his class.

JJ: Other way around, Freshwater has been presenting the creationist crap for years, only recently started branding children. Guess Daubenmire was a failure at raising his own child, so he thinks he needs to give it a try with other people’s children. The kid was probably taking the fall for the dad in the pron case.

2. JJ (and RBH a couple of posts above), as much as I’d like to prove that Daubenmire Sr. is a hypocrite, just for the entertainment value but also to demonstrate yet again the fact that creationists habitually lie, we really have to be careful here. Wishful thinking that it’s the father rather than the son that downloaded the porn is not evidence, any more than the wishful thinking of the DI and other creationists is.

JJ

My oh, my, we are touchy aren't we? Just asked a question Bro and I believe that evolution is still referred to as a theory.

I'm not the most confident lad in the world but certainly don't feel the need point to other's pooh for fear of exposing my own.

If you wish to have a civil discussion , then fine but I don't intend to examine one's dirty laundry , unless of course it is being worn by a missing link.

Harrison

Harrison said: JJ My oh, my, we are touchy aren't we? Just asked a question Bro and I believe that evolution is still referred to as a theory.

Harrison said: JJ My oh, my, we are touchy aren't we? Just asked a question Bro and I believe that evolution is still referred to as a theory. I'm not the most confident lad in the world but certainly don't feel the need point to other's pooh for fear of exposing my own. If you wish to have a civil discussion , then fine but I don't intend to examine one's dirty laundry , unless of course it is being worn by a missing link. Harrison

Harrison said: JJ My oh, my, we are touchy aren't we? Just asked a question Bro and I believe that evolution is still referred to as a theory. I'm not the most confident lad in the world but certainly don't feel the need point to other's pooh for fear of exposing my own. If you wish to have a civil discussion , then fine but I don't intend to examine one's dirty laundry , unless of course it is being worn by a missing link. Harrison

In the American vernacular, "theory" often means "imperfect fact"--part of a hierarchy of confidence running downhill from fact to theory to hypothesis to guess. Thus the power of the creationist argument: evolution is "only" a theory and intense debate now rages about many aspects of the theory. If evolution is worse than a fact, and scientists can't even make up their minds about the theory, then what confidence can we have in it? Indeed, President Reagan echoed this argument before an evangelical group in Dallas when he said (in what I devoutly hope was campaign rhetoric): "Well, it is a theory. It is a scientific theory only, and it has in recent years been challenged in the world of science--that is, not believed in the scientific community to be as infallible as it once was." Well evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape-like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered. Moreover, "fact" doesn't mean "absolute certainty"; there ain't no such animal in an exciting and complex world. The final proofs of logic and mathematics flow deductively from stated premises and achieve certainty only because they are not about the empirical world. Evolutionists make no claim for perpetual truth, though creationists often do (and then attack us falsely for a style of argument that they themselves favor). In science "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional consent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms. Evolutionists have been very clear about this distinction of fact and theory from the very beginning, if only because we have always acknowledged how far we are from completely understanding the mechanisms (theory) by which evolution (fact) occurred. Darwin continually emphasized the difference between his two great and separate accomplishments: establishing the fact of evolution, and proposing a theory--natural selection--to explain the mechanism of evolution. - Stephen J. Gould, " Evolution as Fact and Theory"; Discover, May 1981

If you wish to have a civil discussion , then fine...

— Harrison

I'd like to hear more about the conversations with the locals. Maybe more went on than you describe, but on the face of it, it looks like you missed a chance to use NOMA. Its not necessary that fundamentalists "believe" modern biology. Its a free country. Unfortunately, or fortunately, they can "believe" anything they want. But they do need to be persuaded that what is being taught is truthfully the best that the scientific community currently has, and that there is no "alternative science". We need to be able to admit to fundamentalists that science does not produce absolute truth, and is very different, maybe even inferior, method to knowledge than religion. The main point of having Francis Collins and Ken Miller writing books shouldn't be that they don't take literal meaning from Genesis. It should be that they don't use science as the basis for their religious beliefs. It is possible to believe that the scientific community has truthfully produced the best science we're capable of, and believe that Genesis is literally true, at the same time. All it takes is for us, and the fundamentalists, to have some humility. It should be possible to make fundamentalists feel just a little ashamed that they should think that the human creative process of science would produce a God's eye view of the universe. That's hubris.

Moses said:

Joel | June 20, 2008 9:01 PM | Reply “Or are they going to continue to pull a Pelosi?” WTF?

"Pull a Pelosi" means to abrogate your legal responsibility to enforce the law and defend the Constitution. There should be no doubt in the minds of all Americans that the Executive Branch has committed dozens, if not scores, of crimes and Constitutional Violations. Rather than throw the bum via the Impeachment Process, Pelosi has steadfastly refused to exercise her Constitutional duty.

simultaneously

I’d like to hear more about the conversations with the locals. Maybe more went on than you describe, but on the face of it, it looks like you missed a chance to use NOMA. Its not necessary that fundamentalists “believe” modern biology. Its a free country. Unfortunately, or fortunately, they can “believe” anything they want. But they do need to be persuaded that what is being taught is truthfully the best that the scientific community currently has, and that there is no “alternative science”. We need to be able to admit to fundamentalists that science does not produce absolute truth, and is very different, maybe even inferior, method to knowledge than religion. The main point of having Francis Collins and Ken Miller writing books shouldn’t be that they don’t take literal meaning from Genesis.

"he didn’t want to read anything that wasn’t consistent with his beliefs"

But that's the thing. Reconciling science and religion (NOMA, or whatever) doesn't necessarily have to remove all conflict. You've written before about the importance of not trying to "convert" people, of framing the argument to speak to what the audience already understands. What happens if you are to ask a fundamentalist to read Collins with the explicit warning that he won't be convinced by the "theological evolution", but that he would get an honest assessment of the "evidence against evolution", and learn that science can't be used to prove, or disprove, a religious belief. The fundamentalist shouldn't have to fear that someone is trying to change their religious beliefs. It should be only an indirect topic related to teaching good science. That, and showing them that science isn't anything to be afraid of since it is an impermanent human creative construct, should allow them to let science be science ... you'd think.

Was just thinking, wouldn't it be nice if government students could have these type of discussions in the classroom? You know let's examine your theory and you can examine mine.

But alas, that doen't happen does it?

For the record , I was well trained in evolution for 14 years and for the longest time assumed acceptance of it's existence until I started to notice that there wasn't much proof. Currenlty weighing evolution vs creation but have a difficult time believing that man was an accident.

However, and in the spirit of fair play , I would advise all I have a rock that has been setting in a bowl of water in my library for over 15 years and although it has not yet moved , grown an appendage or changed in size shape or form - I do have faith that it will someday grow into a Rolls Royce. I'll keep ya posted on that.

Harrison

Harrison said: Was just thinking, wouldn't it be nice if government students could have these type of discussions in the classroom? You know let's examine your theory and you can examine mine.

For the record , I was well trained in evolution for 14 years and for the longest time assumed acceptance of it's existence until I started to notice that there wasn't much proof.

Currently weighing evolution vs creation but have a difficult time believing that man was an accident.

However, and in the spirit of fair play , I would advise all I have a rock that has been setting in a bowl of water in my library for over 15 years and although it has not yet moved , grown an appendage or changed in size shape or form - I do have faith that it will someday grow into a Rolls Royce. I'll keep ya posted on that.

For the record , I was well trained in evolution for 14 years and for the longest time assumed acceptance of it’s existence until I started to notice that there wasn’t much proof. Currenlty weighing evolution vs creation but have a difficult time believing that man was an accident.

t Harrison said: Was just thinking, wouldn't it be nice if government students could have these type of discussions in the classroom? You know let's examine your theory and you can examine mine. But alas, that doen't happen does it?

For the record , I was well trained in evolution for 14 years and for the longest time assumed acceptance of it's existence until I started to notice that there wasn't much proof. Currenlty weighing evolution vs creation but have a difficult time believing that man was an accident.

However, and in the spirit of fair play , I would advise all I have a rock that has been setting in a bowl of water in my library for over 15 years and although it has not yet moved , grown an appendage or changed in size shape or form - I do have faith that it will someday grow into a Rolls Royce. I'll keep ya posted on that.

What happens if you are to ask a fundamentalist to read Collins with the explicit warning that he won’t be convinced by the “theological evolution”, but that he would get an honest assessment of the “evidence against evolution”, and learn that science can’t be used to prove, or disprove, a religious belief. The fundamentalist shouldn’t have to fear that someone is trying to change their religious beliefs.

Harrison said: JJ My oh, my, we are touchy aren't we? Just asked a question Bro and I believe that evolution is still referred to as a theory. Harrison

Dear Friends, Now that the investigation is complete Coach Dave will be able to dis-assemble the whole bogus "investigation" that was conducted by the board-selected "independent" investigator. For the 1st time you will hear the real story behind what has transpired and how similar the Freshwater case is to Ben Stein's movie Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed. Sadly, Christians have believed what they have heard on TV and read in the papers. Tonight, for the first time, we will begin to shine light on the real reason they are after John Freshwater. Pass The Salt Monday night 6:30 - 8:00 on am880 WRFD and www.coachdavelive.com on the internet. Passing the Salt, Coach Dave Daubenmire

Thanks for the outstanding update. Freshwater needed to go. I would still like to know what this guy was thinking when he started branding his students. What a nutball.

For the record , I was well trained in evolution for 14 years and for the longest time assumed acceptance of it’s existence until I started to notice that there wasn’t much proof. Currenlty weighing evolution vs creation but have a difficult time believing that man was an accident.

— Harrison

I'm so sorry - I didn't graduate with a Doctorate in Science nor am I a MD. However, you don't have to be a doctor to know when you are sick and you can observe with your own eyes many of the laws of nature.

With that in mind let me ask those of you in the scientific community a question.

What is the second law of thermo dynamics and does it support the theory of evolution?

Note: Please try to answer this question without attacking the author,, George Bush, Ronald Reagon or Dave Daubenmire and his son.

"Just the facts lads, just the facts"

Love Ya

Harrison

Second evasion of simple questions noted.

TO FRANK J

Franks appreciate you staying with me.

Frank J asks Harrison -Since you appear to have a problem with evolution, please tell us if you agree with prominent anti-evolutionist Michael Behe that life on Earth has a history of 3-4 billion years and that humans share common ancestors with other species.

What I have problem with is "junk " science which engages prejudicial logic where the conclusion is arrived at and then the facts are sought and squeezed to fit (An Evolutionist must have invented KY jelly, right).

I'm not too sure Behe is that much of a anti- evolutionist - he just happened upon some interesting features in cells that blew the butt out of the simple cell theory on which evolution was leaning.

How old is life on earth? Do you want that in minutes, seconds or years. Please , there isn't a scientist, researcher or psychic than can state with ANY certainty what that is and when they do, someone else comes along with a better answer when needed. (please see previous notation on KY Jelly)

as to when our lineage, and several others with the most similar “designs” originated from nonliving matter.

I think the real question is how we got from non living matter to reach our present day "design":Please refer to my question on the second law of thermo dynamics

Frank J asks = Please try to answer the questions without irrelevant statements of incredulity about “Darwinism.”

Uh, I thought that's what this was all about. What's relevant and credible. I'll tell you what you tell me if you've stop beating you wife yet and I'll answer your question about relevancy.

If we are to take an honest and objective look at the subject matter at hand I believe we should use objectivity and not bias nor religious props of any flavor .

Harrison said: I'm so sorry - I didn't graduate with a Doctorate in Science nor am I a MD. However, you don't have to be a doctor to know when you are sick and you can observe with your own eyes many of the laws of nature.

Harrison said: TO FRANK J Franks appreciate you staying with me. Frank J asks Harrison -Since you appear to have a problem with evolution, please tell us if you agree with prominent anti-evolutionist Michael Behe that life on Earth has a history of 3-4 billion years and that humans share common ancestors with other species. What I have problem...[dodge, dodge, and dodge some more]

Harrison said: Frank J asks = Please try to answer the questions without irrelevant statements of incredulity about “Darwinism.” Uh, I thought that's what this was all about. What's relevant and credible.

RBH said: It's not fear, at least not in the fellow I was talking with. It's profound disinterest. He is flat not interested in reading anything that might be different from what he believes. He regards it as a waste of time. You have to talk with a few to get a feel for the sheer lack of intellectual curiosity that's displayed. What's tragic is that is transmitted to the young.

What can anyone really say when someone claims that Behe (having done NO research, of course) somehow overturned an understanding of cells developed over a century of detailed study by thousands of scientists, who continue to hone that understanding on a daily basis. And Behe (he says) not only overturned this understanding, he "blew the butt out of it".

Uh huh. And this from someone who refuses even to hazard a guess about how long life in earth has been around, to within 6 orders of magnitude!

It’s not fear, at least not in the fellow I was talking with. It’s profound disinterest.

Science Avenger said:

Harrison said: Frank J asks = Please try to answer the questions without irrelevant statements of incredulity about “Darwinism.” Uh, I thought that's what this was all about. What's relevant and credible.

Yes, and what experience has told us around these parts is that people who feign interest in discussing earth and life science while steadfastly refusing to answer even the most basic questions about the subject are not the least bit credible. All they do is parrot wornout creationist nonsense that anyone can find clear refutations of at talkorigins, which makes them not worth our time. So answer Frank's questions, or be gone.

Flint,

Fuckin' pedant! :D (I never do get those two straight.)

RBH

[Citing parents] We are Christians who practice our faith where it belongs, at church and in our home and, most importantly, outside the public classroom, where the law requires a separation of church and state.

Apparently the "painless" superficial wound wasn't so painless or superficial.

Harrison said: evolution is still referred to as a theory.

Harrison said: you can observe with your own eyes many of the laws of nature.

How old is life on earth? Do you want that in minutes, seconds or years...I think the real question is how we got from non living matter to reach our present day “design”:Please refer to my question on the second law of thermo dynamics...

— Harrison

The lurkers know where to find the “2LOT refutes evolution” canard, and the answers to it.

Atheist-
It does not say anywhere right after school the kid went to sports. You are assuming a lot. Did you read the whole report? This has been going on for a long time. He was told in 2003 he couldn't teach certain things. It is obvious that last year and this year he crossed the line and taught what he had been told not to.

Pierce R. Butler said: Now that Freshwater's burning of a student's arm is officially on the public record - and in the local media - when are the Mt. Vernon police going to fulfill their sworn duty and arrest the perpetrator? Or are they going to continue to pull a Pelosi?

Richard B. Hoppe,

I also was at that school board meeting and overheard the conversation you describe in your article. I was initially impressed by your ability to engage in a civil conversation with them even though you disagreed with their beliefs. You came across as someone who was willing to think about their statements. However, I was surprised with your comments in this article about that conversation:

First, the students you were talking with have never been taught by John Freshwater. (Did they ever say they had? Did you ask, or just assume?)

Second, while it is true that the adult you spoke with refused to consider reading the book you suggested to him, you failed to mention that one of the students you were talking with expressed interest in reading some of the resources you recommended. He, in turn, had some things for you to look at and you gave your email address to him. Did you read his email?

Lastly, you describe the kids as “genuinely doomed to a life of intellectual sterility.” While I don’t remember every detail about your conversation with them, I do know that it was a two-way debate. They did not lack for “intellectuality.”

wilhelm said: Lastly, you describe the kids as “genuinely doomed to a life of intellectual sterility.” While I don’t remember every detail about your conversation with them, I do know that it was a two-way debate. They did not lack for “intellectuality.”

Stanton said: How can a child not be intellectually sterile if her teacher taught her that every single thing that Science and scientists say is wrong because Science and scientists contradict the Bible? How can a child not be intellectually sterile if her teacher trained her to question the word of anyone who does not interpret the Bible in the exact same way her teacher does?

First, the students you were talking with have never been taught by John Freshwater. (Did they ever say they had? Did you ask, or just assume?)

While I don’t remember every detail about your conversation with them, I do know that it was a two-way debate. They did not lack for “intellectuality.”

RBH said: wilhelm wrote

First, the students you were talking with have never been taught by John Freshwater. (Did they ever say they had? Did you ask, or just assume?)

I'm afraid you heard only parts of the conversations I had. Were you in the parking lot when I was offered the NASA discovered the day that Joshua made the sun stand still story? Did you hear one boy tell me he took Sunday school from Freshwater? I had several conversations that day; my account above is a summary across several such conversations.

Sorry. I should have made that clearer. I had two conversations with students and two with a couple of adults over the course of four hours during the exec session and afterward. And I misremembered above: It was an adult mother of a Freshwater student who gave me (with a straight face) the NASA/Joshua claim.

This isn't about freedom of religion. It is about a teacher who burns students, disrespects peoples views and the system that he "choose" to contract with and agree to abide by the rules. A system that is a "public" educational system comprised of people of all religions who are there to get an education and be treated with respect. Burning a students arm and more than one student with an approx 8 inch cross is none of the above. I know John Freshwater. I live in Mt. Vernon and this guy is deserving of being fired. Those who want to align themselves with him in a blind and false crusade to support what they think are Christian views insult themselves and the Christian religion. Please support his firing! Would you want your child's arm burned by a fundamental and I do mean "mental" lunatic?