Blogging Batholiths

Actually, the YECs have recently been making a bit of a fuss about how they can explain this aspect of geology. Andrew Snelling apparently has a model, which explains everything amazingly well and much better than conventional theories etc etc:

Snelling A. A. 2008. Catastrophic granite formation: rapid melting of source rocks, and rapid magma intrusion and cooling. Answers Research Journal 1:11-25.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/contents/379/Catastrophic-Granite-Formation.pdf

he even measures something in this paper:

Snelling A. A. and Gates D. 2009. Implications of polonium radiohalos in nested plutons of the Tuolumne Intrusive Suite, Yosemite, California. Answers Research Journal 2:53-77.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/contents/379/arj/v2/Radiohalos_in_Yosemite_Granites.pdf

perhaps your geological colleagues would be interested in these papers, to learn where they've been going wrong all these years.

Oh and you can read about Snelling's hypothesis here. It touches upon polonium halos and Tom Ballieul who wrote the Talk Origins critique of YEC polonium work shows up in the comments.

http://thenewcreationism.wordpress.com/2009/06/01/are-polonium-radiohalos-primordial

(2) Real scientists think the earth is billions of years old. You just can’t scientifically reconcile these batholiths with a 10,000-year old earth without being more than a little schizophrenic.

— Dave Thomas

(1) Real science involves real work; when is the last time you saw a creationist actually measure something, or use a shovel?

As one who has only learned about geology in adult education evening classes and field trips the question,"Why is there so much granite in continents", seems fairly easy to answer. Granites are less dense than other igneous/plutonic rocks and rise through the surrounding strata. They are also less prone to certain methods of erosion than the surrounding rocks which helps them stand out.

Am I digging a hole for myself?

About the pyroxenes, I should also be interested in their demise!

Oh, don't worry about the granites, in a few million years they may sink and have a sedimentary cover, depending on their situation.

In my experience, YECs can spend plenty of time criticizing the various forms of OEC (one article I've read mentions "day-age compromisers"), probably almost as much as evolutionists. I have read one Jehovah's Witness book that seems to critique young-earth creationism.

I was just wondering, could someone with knowledge amd experience in geology address the YEC articles in the first post? I'm not a geologist, so it would be very difficult for me to refute Snelling's work/probable distortion.

At any rate, your photo and article are very impressive, Dave Thomas!

Henry J said:

(1) Real science involves real work; when is the last time you saw a creationist actually measure something, or use a shovel?

Yeah, they just take their assumptions for granite.

Stanton said:

Henry J said:

(1) Real science involves real work; when is the last time you saw a creationist actually measure something, or use a shovel?

Yeah, they just take their assumptions for granite.

That wasn't a very gneiss thing to say.

I thought JohnO got it right, although the research is hugely interesting of course; where did those pyroxenes go?

From my simplistic science high-school days, we were told merely that the less-dense continental granites, floated upon the more dense oceanic basalts; No?

I'd like to be corrected i'm not like the creationists, that is, I do give a schist!
Rob.

Telamon said: I was just wondering, could someone with knowledge amd experience in geology address the YEC articles in the first post? I'm not a geologist, so it would be very difficult for me to refute Snelling's work/probable distortion. At any rate, your photo and article are very impressive, Dave Thomas!

JohnO said: As one who has only learned about geology in adult education evening classes and field trips the question,"Why is there so much granite in continents", seems fairly easy to answer. Granites are less dense than other igneous/plutonic rocks and rise through the surrounding strata. They are also less prone to certain methods of erosion than the surrounding rocks which helps them stand out. Am I digging a hole for myself? About the pyroxenes, I should also be interested in their demise! Oh, don't worry about the granites, in a few million years they may sink and have a sedimentary cover, depending on their situation.

I’ll just say that creationists have to really struggle with stratigraphy[/URL].

Richard said: In my experience, YECs can spend plenty of time criticizing the various forms of OEC (one article I've read mentions "day-age compromisers"), probably almost as much as evolutionists. I have read one Jehovah's Witness book that seems to critique young-earth creationism.

BC's a big place. Where are you? Near an airport, obviously...

Just received a forwarded message from John Hole in BC; there has apparently been an ecoterrorism incident involving the seismic work on the project. If Dave Thomas is keeping up with this post, he can explain; I'll have to check for permission before I C&P the message.

NJ said: Just received a forwarded message from John Hole in BC; there has apparently been an ecoterrorism incident involving the seismic work on the project. If Dave Thomas is keeping up with this post, he can explain; I'll have to check for permission before I C&P the message.

MARK HUME VANCOUVER — From Thursday's Globe and Mail Last updated on Friday, Jul. 17, 2009 02:29AM EDT The RCMP have been called to a remote British Columbia island after an environmental activist "monkeywrenched" a science project in the Great Bear Rainforest, breaking open a drill shaft and tampering with high explosives to stop a seismic blast from occurring. One of the scientists running the Batholiths Continental Dynamics Project, in which researchers from 12 Canadian and U.S. universities are planning to set off a long chain of about 20 blasts to study how coastal mountains are formed, says the protester put himself and researchers at risk and triggered an "eco-terrorism" investigation by police. "This is serious stuff. He could have blown himself up," John Hole, an associate professor of geophysics at Virginia Tech, said after learning one seismic site, on Denny Island, had been spiked. "Because there are high explosives involved and because of the Dawson Creek bombings [of EnCana gas lines in northeast B.C.] this has gone all the way to Ottawa. This has triggered the eco-terrorism label with the RCMP," Dr. Hole said. Dr. Hole said Ingmar Lee, an environmental activist who admits to vandalizing the blast shaft, has left researchers with a dangerous problem. "The only safe way to destroy explosives is to explode them," Dr. Hole said. "But he has destroyed our safe detonation system."

The idiot probably thought it was oil/gas exploration. There's a wacko blowing up pipelines in northern BC. How well are your projects labeled?

Apparently he knew it was for geological research (even talked to Dr. Hole), but was worried it would damage the nesting grounds for sandhill cranes nearby. Even though all those explosives would have caused less damage than some naturally occurring earthquakes in the area.

Some of the comments on the article are pretty depressing to read, too.

fnxtr said: The idiot probably thought it was oil/gas exploration. There's a wacko blowing up pipelines in northern BC. How well are your projects labeled?

We have stabilized the highly dangerous situation created by Mr. Lee, and are prepared to respond to his criminal actions. John Hole ==== On July 14, Mr. Ingmar Lee, a self-professed community activist, informed the media that he had damaged a seismic explosive shot on Denny Island (Shearwater), in the Central Coast of British Columbia, near Bella Bella. The seismic shot was to be used by a university research group studying the granites of the Coast Mountains. Mr. Lee accompanied his claims of vandalism with a manifesto claiming imminent danger to wildlife, lack of community consultation, and ill intent of the university professors. Mr. Lee's claims are demonstrably false. It is a federal criminal offense to tamper with explosives. Due to sensitivity in the wake of pipeline bombings in northern BC/Alberta, Mr. Lee's actions triggered an RCMP alert for eco-terrorism that climbed to the highest levels in Ottawa. Under the advice of provincial and federal explosives regulators, the RCMP posted the damaged shot site as highly dangerous and the community was alerted. Mr. Lee was not immediately arrested. Mr. Lee claimed to have "disabled and destroyed" the shot. However, the explosives were still present and live. There is only one safe way to destroy explosives: detonation. Instead, at great personal risk, Mr. Lee destroyed the security and the safe detonation system. This created an increased risk for the local community. A licensed explosives expert assessed the damage, accompanied by the RCMP. Despite repeated warnings by the RCMP, Mr. Lee returned to the site at least twice to harass the people working to make the site safe. In the evening of July 16, a group of leaders from Denny Island gathered and accompanied the project explosives expert to the site to provide security from Mr. Lee. They provided equipment and community support for the scientists. The RCMP also provided security and official witness. After some hours of work and at greatly increased personal risk, the licensed explosives expert repaired and detonated the Denny Island shot at 11:00pm local time on February 16. The shot shook the ground but was quiet in the air. It did not blow to the surface, and caused no surface damage. This is what seismic shots are designed to do. Explosive detonating cord had been cut by Mr. Lee. This broken piece had to be detonated separately at the surface 15 minutes later. This was extremely loud. If there was any disturbance to local wildlife, it was caused by this noise. The site, a bulldozed rocky area at the end of a private airstrip, was cleaned to its original condition. The university research group hopes that the government charges Mr. Ingmar Lee for this criminal offense. ##### The university seismic project is a collaboration of 4 universities: University of Victoria, Virginia Tech, University of Texas El Paso, and University of British Columbia. The science is entirely funded by national university research funding agencies in Canada (Natural Science and Engineering Research Council) and the USA (National Science Foundation). The seismic work is part of a larger geologic project investigating the processes that created BC's Coast Mountains. www.geo.arizona.edu/tectonics/Ducea/Batholiths/index.html The project has no affiliation with petroleum or mineral exploration. Denny Island and the Coast Mountains are made of granite, and petroleum is never found in granite. The seismic method images subsurface geology using the same physics as medical ultrasound. The method is used for environmental, groundwater, mineral, petroleum, earthquake hazards, and tectonics research. This project's images will "see" to >50 km depth, but at insufficient detail to find energy or mineral resources. The explosives work was permitted over a two-year period. The permit was managed by BC's Integrated Land Management Bureau and NSERC. The potential environmental impacts were evaluated by several federal, provincial, and local agencies and organizations, most notably the Canadian Department of Fisheries and Oceans and the BC Ministry of the Environment. At Denny Island, the project had the approval of the Heiltsuk First Nation, on whose territory the shot lies. It had the approval of the Central Coast Regional District, a formal civic organization representing the sparsely populated region and the site of the shot. It had the approval of the corporation at whose private airstrip the shot was located. No buildings were within 1 km of the site. -- J. A. Hole, Dept. of Geosciences, Virginia Tech, 4044 Derring Hall (MC 0420), Blacksburg VA, 24061 http://www.geos.vt.edu/people/hole/

Gaia preserve us from "community activists" like Mr. Lee.

you missed at least one article:

http://www.timescolonist.com/More+attacks+threatened+pipelines/1800168/story.i heard the CBC talk radio interviews (As It Happens) with first Ingmar Lee, and then next day John Hole.

lincoln hollister said: you missed at least one article: http://www.timescolonist.com/More+attacks+threatened+pipelines/1800168/story.i heard the CBC talk radio interviews (As It Happens) with first Ingmar Lee, and then next day John Hole.

Hi all,

It needs to be pointed out that the 2009 Batholiths Land-based Seismic Program failed to conduct any credible public consultation process which would have provide information about their project to local communities along their blast route. Certainly, nobody here on Denny Island was informed, with the exception of our representative to the Central Coast Regional District, who also did nothing to inform our community.

It appears that this secrecy was deliberate, on account of the humiliating failure of their 2007 Batholiths Marine which was quite rightly attacked by numerous respected BC Environmental Organizations, which include the David Suzuki Foundation, West Coast Environmental Law, and the Georgia Strai Alliance. A quick Google search will provide those objections. It seems apparent that as a result of the termination of that project, the Batholiths scientists deliberately chose to conduct a very minimal low-key public process, and it appears that they simply hoped that nobody would notice.

I expectat that the Batholiths Projects public information efforts were also seriously deficient in informing the public in the Bella Coola valley, and all across the Chilcotin to Quesnel. Currently, we are receiving reports that this is the case.

The Denny Island site is located right in the heart of the so-called "Great Bear Rainforest" which is an area which is internationally recognized for its significant primaeval wilderness values, and which has been afforded unique and special protections. All development in this area is expected to conform to "Eco-system Based Management" principles. There is no mention anywhere in what little information is available about the project that its proponents made any effort whatsoever to comply with these requirements, or even knew anything about them.

There are also numerous legitimate concerns about the effects of the blasts on local wildlife which were never addressed, nor was there any monitoring program by which the scientists could actually determine what, if any effects resulted.

This is an example of the worst example I have ever seen of scientific arrogance and a very shoddy, if not deliberately evasive public relations effort.

Sincerely, Ingmar Lee, Denny Island, BC

Certainly, nobody here on Denny Island was informed, with the exception of our representative to the Central Coast Regional District

All development in this area is expected to conform to “Eco-system Based Management” principles. There is no mention anywhere in what little information is available about the project that its proponents made any effort whatsoever to comply with these requirements, or even knew anything about them.

Ingmar Lee said: Hi all, It needs to be pointed out that the 2009 Batholiths Land-based Seismic Program failed to conduct any credible public consultation process which would have provide information about their project to local communities along their blast route. Certainly, nobody here on Denny Island was informed, with the exception of our representative to the Central Coast Regional District, who also did nothing to inform our community.

It appears that this secrecy was deliberate, on account of the humiliating failure of their 2007 Batholiths Marine ...

It seems apparent that as a result of the termination of that project, the Batholiths scientists deliberately chose to conduct a very minimal low-key public process, and it appears that they simply hoped that nobody would notice.

I expectat that the Batholiths Projects public information efforts were also seriously deficient in informing the public in the Bella Coola valley, and all across the Chilcotin to Quesnel. Currently, we are receiving reports that this is the case.

The Denny Island site is located right in the heart of the so-called "Great Bear Rainforest" which is an area which is internationally recognized for its significant primaeval wilderness values, and which has been afforded unique and special protections. All development in this area is expected to conform to "Eco-system Based Management" principles.

There is no mention anywhere in what little information is available about the project that its proponents made any effort whatsoever to comply with these requirements, or even knew anything about them.

There are also numerous legitimate concerns about the effects of the blasts on local wildlife which were never addressed, nor was there any monitoring program by which the scientists could actually determine what, if any effects resulted.

Dr. Hole: The explosives work was permitted over a two-year period. The permit was managed by BC’s Integrated Land Management Bureau and NSERC. The potential environmental impacts were evaluated by several federal, provincial, and local agencies and organizations, most notably the Canadian Department of Fisheries and Oceans and the BC Ministry of the Environment. At Denny Island, the project had the approval of the Heiltsuk First Nation, on whose territory the shot lies. It had the approval of the Central Coast Regional District, a formal civic organization representing the sparsely populated region and the site of the shot. It had the approval of the corporation at whose private airstrip the shot was located. No buildings were within 1 km of the site.

This is an example of the worst example I have ever seen of scientific arrogance and a very shoddy, if not deliberately evasive public relations effort.

Frank J said:

Richard said: In my experience, YECs can spend plenty of time criticizing the various forms of OEC (one article I've read mentions "day-age compromisers"), probably almost as much as evolutionists. I have read one Jehovah's Witness book that seems to critique young-earth creationism.

"Classic" YECs and OECs certainly do criticize each other - and IDers - but those criticisms are rarely in the spotlight. IDers, along with the more politically correct YECs and OECs, do their best to downplay the irreconcilable differences, and the the media plays right along because the "intra-creationism" disputes just don't sell like a "Bible vs. Darwin" caricature. That I expect, but what drives me nuts is how seldom critics of ID/creationism exploit it. The "us vs. 'the creationists'" approach may be necessary to begin the discussion, but if one ends it there, it only helps prop up the big tent.

In actual response to Mr. Thomas' post:

(1) On June 4th, in the Badlands of South Dakota.

(2) Sure you can. SteveF already pointed some of the YEC explanations, and there's more, e.g. "Rapid Rocks" and "Rapid Granite Formation".

NJ said:

JohnO said: As one who has only learned about geology in adult education evening classes and field trips the question,"Why is there so much granite in continents", seems fairly easy to answer. Granites are less dense than other igneous/plutonic rocks and rise through the surrounding strata. They are also less prone to certain methods of erosion than the surrounding rocks which helps them stand out. Am I digging a hole for myself? About the pyroxenes, I should also be interested in their demise! Oh, don't worry about the granites, in a few million years they may sink and have a sedimentary cover, depending on their situation.

Ah, but the question is, how did the granites originate? The mantle after all is made up of mafic rock; if you are going to melt it into granites of lower density and higher silica content, then you need to remove mafic components, like, well, pyroxenes. My understanding (mineralogist, not petrologist) was that the granites originated when superheated basaltic melts rose and ponded at the base of the crust. The excess heat was transferred to the more silicic crustal rocks which have lower melting points, resulting in a rhyolitic to andesitic (granite to diorite) magma that would ascend towards the surface. The melt that reached the surface produced volcanism, and any left crystallizing in the crust became batholiths, later to be exposed through erosion. Since I am freshly back at VT, I wasn't aware that John Hole was working on this. Say hello to him for me, Dave, (Neil Johnson) and warn him that I will try and interrogate him on this during the fall.

Mike, thanks for reminding me why I started coming here in the first place. What a great place to learn!

For a glitch at Dave's project, see Pharyngula. It seems an anti-science ideologue sabotaged some detonation cord before one of the shots.

You're more than 10 days behind, RBH. Look upthread. ;)

Good Morning,

I am a member of the Heiltsuk First Nation, the territory in which Mr Lee lives and where a portion of the Batholiths project is being conducted.

I have paid close attention to all events leading up to the act of vandalism and the consequent commentary afterwards. I have read the e-mail interchange between Mr Lee and Dr Hole and feel the Dr did his best to speak to Lee's questions. I also feel Lee took matters in to his own hands to the detriment of any valid expression of concern that may be raised now or in the future with respect to unfamiliar scientific research local residents may have reason to question. Azkyroth #34 and mmr #45 (on the Blog site Pharyngula)say this quite nicely .

My issue is with the reactionary members of the scientific community that are labelling this misguided individual with inflammatory words like "moron", "idiot" and "wacko" and the attached scorn and derision. I am sure Lee's actions were misguided and needlessly endangered others but it doesn't help the situation to be arrogantly dismissive.

Just as the misguided actions of one eco-activist claiming to represent the concerns of an entire group diminish that group's voice in any subsequent challenges; so to does inflammatory scorn lobbed down from the ivory tower further entrench the separation between scientists and academics from the people they seek to enlighten.

In my opinion, both extremes are using unwarrented emotion to take unnecessary cracks at the other "side" when a middle ground is where real understanding happens.

Hope this helps.

Salistala said: Good Morning, I am a member of the Heiltsuk First Nation, the territory in which Mr Lee lives and where a portion of the Batholiths project is being conducted. I have paid close attention to all events leading up to the act of vandalism and the consequent commentary afterwards. I have read the e-mail interchange between Mr Lee and Dr Hole and feel the Dr did his best to speak to Lee's questions. I also feel Lee took matters in to his own hands to the detriment of any valid expression of concern that may be raised now or in the future with respect to unfamiliar scientific research local residents may have reason to question. Azkyroth #34 and mmr #45 (on the Blog site Pharyngula)say this quite nicely . My issue is with the reactionary members of the scientific community that are labelling this misguided individual with inflammatory words like "moron", "idiot" and "wacko" and the attached scorn and derision. I am sure Lee's actions were misguided and needlessly endangered others but it doesn't help the situation to be arrogantly dismissive. Just as the misguided actions of one eco-activist claiming to represent the concerns of an entire group diminish that group's voice in any subsequent challenges; so to does inflammatory scorn lobbed down from the ivory tower further entrench the separation between scientists and academics from the people they seek to enlighten. In my opinion, both extremes are using unwarrented emotion to take unnecessary cracks at the other "side" when a middle ground is where real understanding happens. Hope this helps.

Mike: But as more and more accumulate, and get heated, they metamorphose to gneiss, or partially melt, producing a granite.

raven said:

Mike: But as more and more accumulate, and get heated, they metamorphose to gneiss, or partially melt, producing a granite.

I'm following the explanation sort of. Basically basalt gets fractionated into high silica rocks by plate tectonics. So how do the andesites and sedimentary silica rich rocks get partially melted to form granite? They must have to get subducted and melted and then rise towards the surface but not break the surface. So, the earliest rocks on earth can't be granite. So when does granite first appear? And are any granite batholiths forming these days anywhere? If anyone knows post it.

I've updated the photo essay for the whole project. Comments are closed for this post; they may now be made on the updated post.

Cheers, Dave