AIG's Creation Science Fair

Posted 17 August 2009 by Richard B. Hoppe

Answers in Genesis is gearing up for a science fair in February ~~2009~~ 2010. The rules are here. Note that they are parasitic on the Intel Science and Engineering guidelines with two minor exceptions:

3, All projects should be clearly aligned with a biblical principle from a passage or verse. The student should be able to explain why the verse or passage selected relates to their project. (Students should read the article "God and Natural Law" by Dr. Jason Lisle for an explanation of this concept.) * Students should consider the context of the verse(s) they are using. * The verse chosen does not have to directly apply to the project topic (e.g., Scripture does not directly address radio waves), but may simply relate the project to the Creator of the universe. * Students should read the article "God and Natural Law."

and

4. Students should be able, with a clear conscience, to sign the AiG Statement of Faith, which upholds the belief in the creation of the universe in six, twenty-four-hour days about 6,000 years ago by the Creator God as revealed in the Bible.

Translation of the "The verse chosen does not have to directly apply to the project topic" is "However my experiment came out, God did it." If it weren't so hot and I weren't so tired I'd get indignant. But mostly I'm sad: Those kids don't have a chance. This is part of Ken Ham's solution to the Already Gone problem he sees: The abandonment of fundamentalism by young people whose doubts start in middle school and high school. Ham's solution is simple: Lie to them earlier and more often. Pity he isn't self-aware enough to realize that those doubts begin to arise when kids learn that Ham and their pastor have been lying to them. And that's the counter to the Hamster: Let 'em know they're being lied to in the plainest possible terms. Hat tip to Dan Phelps.

69 Comments

JimNorth · 17 August 2009

(psst...Richard...it's Feb 27, 2010) You may send this post to the bathroom wall...

Charley Horse · 17 August 2009

6,000 years, hmmm.
Has any scholar ever contested the
ability to actually count those years using
the Bible?
I personally have made a halfhearted attempt
and always got stumped in the "gaps".
I realize some hedge the estimate a few
thousand years. Imagine someone with the
authority of the Pope disputing publically the
ability to count the years by only using the Bible. Yes, I realize the Catholics don't contest science's estimate of billions of years.

Mike Elzinga · 17 August 2009

After I retired from research, I spent ten years teaching math and physics in a special program for gifted and talented students at a math/science center. It was one of the most enjoyable ten years of my career.

It is absolutely amazing what intelligent and curious youngsters can do when out from under the stultifying influences of typical schools filled with distractions, violence and teachers who are themselves afraid of science and math. Many of these kids were publishing in peer-reviewed research journals before they graduated from high school.

And a few of these came from conservative evangelical religious backgrounds, although not as many of these went as far as most of the others. The conservative influences of their parents put a noticeable damper on their willingness to branch out to colleges and universities their parents were suspicious of.

But here at the Creation “Museum” we see one of the most insidiously deadening tactics to keep young people who are curious about the world around them from ever fully exploring or ever understanding what they can really learn from science. Nothing in the public schools has ever been this despicable.

Ken Ham is a truly evil bastard.

RBH · 17 August 2009

JimNorth said: (psst...Richard...it's Feb 27, 2010) You may send this post to the bathroom wall...

Oopsie. What's a year when the YECs are off by a factor of 750,000? :)

Henry J · 17 August 2009

Has any scholar ever contested the ability to actually count those years using the Bible?

What I've wondered about for a while is how they bridge the gap after the last "so and so was begot when his father was x years old" in the O.T. Also there's the minor nit that it only gives whole number of years, which means any one begat could be off by half a year in either direction. (Though I suppose that on average those would cancel out except for statistical random chance.) Henry

RBH · 17 August 2009

AC Grayling has the perfect description of the difference between science and AIG-style pseudo-science:

On one side are those who inquire, examine, experiment, research, propose ideas and subject them to scrutiny, change their minds when shown to be wrong and live with uncertainty while placing reliance on the collective, self-critical, responsible and rigorous use of reason and observation to further the quest for knowledge. On the other side are those who espouse a belief system or ideology which pre-packages all the answers, who have faith in it, who trust the authorities, priests and prophets, and who either think that the hows and whys of the universe are explained to satisfaction by their faith, or smugly embrace ignorance. Note that although the historical majority of these latter are the epigones of one or another religion, they also include the followers of such ideologies as Marxism and Stalinism – which are also all-embracing monolithic ownerships of the Great Truth to which everyone must sign up on pain of punishment, and on whose behalf their zealots are prepared to kill and die.

Hat tip to Glenn Branch.

stevaroni · 17 August 2009

3, All projects should be clearly aligned with a biblical principle from a passage or verse.

How about John 8:32 "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

4. Students must sign the AiG Statement of Faith, which upholds the belief in the creation of the universe 6,000 years ago by the Creator God

Oh. Well... Umm... Oh, Nevermind.

stevaroni · 17 August 2009

Has any scholar ever contested the ability to actually count those years using the Bible?

I believe Usher left fairly detailed notes about all his assumptions. I'm sure if one were to examine them carefully there's some serious room for re-calculation. But then again, no serious scholar actually cares, and no Biblical zealot wants to question it very deeply (that's just not what Biblical zealots do you see, once the answer is agreed upon, it's agreed to agree upon it from there on out).

raven · 17 August 2009

The abandonment of fundamentalism by young people whose doubts start in middle school and high school.

Here is some data below from fundie sources. According to them, their kids are leaving in droves. Got to be a little careful though, fundies and the truth have been estranged for a long, long time.

Xianity seems to be on the skids in the USA. By my reckoning, between 1-2 million people are leaving the religion every year. Below is data from fundie sources. They know it. I blame the fundies. When xian becomes synonymous with Liar, Hater, Ignorant, Crazy, and sometimes Killer, who would want to be one? lifeway Some Young Adults Are Leaving Church What’s their gripe? And what can you learn from this exodus? By Doug Horchak An April-May 2007 study in the United States found that young adults are leaving Christian churches in record numbers. The primary reason? They find their church irrelevant to their lives and many of its members judgmental or hypocritical. A survey by LifeWay Research revealed that seven in 10 Protestants ages 18 to 30 who went to church regularly in high school said they quit attending by age 23 And 34% of those said they had not returned, even sporadically, by age 30 … “‘This is sobering news,’ says Ed Stetzer, director of Nashville-based LifeWay Research, which is affiliated with the publishing arm of the Southern Baptist Convention. ‘It seems the teen years are like a free trial on a product. By 18, when it’s their choice whether to buy in to church life, many don’t feel engaged and welcome,’ says associate director Scott McConnell” (Cathy Lynn Grossman, “Young Adults Aren’t Sticking With Church,” USA Today, Aug. 8, 2007). Barna poll: Even among young Christians … [half] of young churchgoers said they perceive Christianity to be, too judgmental, hypocritical, and too political. One-third said it was old-fashioned and out of touch with reality.

snaxalotl · 17 August 2009

the difficulty is even greater than merely accurately counting the years ... it takes a fair bit of christian "scholarly" acrobatics just to avoid face value contradiction in the inerrant record of the bible:

http://www.theskepticalreview.com/tsrmag/954far.html

raven · 18 August 2009

Ham’s solution is simple: Lie to them earlier and more often.

The more thoughtful among the fundies know they have a problem. 7 in 10 young adults leave the churches. Their solutions aren't all that creative. 1. One large group wants to take over the USA, destroy Western civilization, and set up a theocracy. Dembski and the DI say exactly this often. Presumably they can then just shoot, stone, or torch any defectors. 2. Another group wants more brainwashing. As if they don't spend huge amounts of time brainwashing their kids anyway. They never get at the root causes. And never will. For starters they could drop their war on science. Science is the basis of modern civilization and why the earth can support 6.7 billion people albeit with some difficulty. They could also quit trying to cram the square peg of 2 pages of bronze age mythology into the round hole of a universe 13.7 billion years old. Making creationism a litmus test for being a Real Xian seems to have boomeranged on them. The brighter kids figure out which theory is in accord with the data and leads somewhere such as to the 21st century.

Michael Roberts · 18 August 2009

Ussher did not not add up the "figures" in the Bible to get 4004BC. From 1ooo years are as a day he like many others before him going back to the 2nd century epistle of Barnabas (12, 3-5)argued that as the earth was created in 6 days it would last 6 days i.e 6 x 1000 years, with 4 days i.e. 4000 years before Jesus and 2000 years after. As Usher worked out on good historical grounds that Herod died by 4BC then Jesus was born in 4BC and hence creation in 4004BC. The world ended in 1996AD if you had noticed.

AIG dont realise this.

See JGCM Fuller Before the Hills in order stood (Geol Soc London Special Publication 190 The age of the Earth)or my mentions of Ussher in my Evangelicals and Science 2008

Ussher was a good scholar for his day and his later chronological work is excellent for the 17th century.

Michael Roberts · 18 August 2009

P.S. It goes without saying that AIG is crap.

Ron Okimoto · 18 August 2009

stevaroni said:
Has any scholar ever contested the ability to actually count those years using the Bible?
I believe Usher left fairly detailed notes about all his assumptions. I'm sure if one were to examine them carefully there's some serious room for re-calculation. But then again, no serious scholar actually cares, and no Biblical zealot wants to question it very deeply (that's just not what Biblical zealots do you see, once the answer is agreed upon, it's agreed to agree upon it from there on out).

As sad as this summary of the current situation is, it is accurate. For some reason Usher's estimate was put into Protestant Bibles. It seems to have sort of become part of the Bible for some people even though it was a fairly modern addition. For some reason guys like they have at AIG do not question the estimate. The ICR's line used to be "less than 10,000 years old" but I saw something a couple of years ago where they were inching up and less than 20,000 years old had crept in. So for some YEC 6,000 years isn't set in stone. We can only hope that this is some type of exponential movement towards the correct estimate. A few hundred years to reach 10,000, and only 30 or 40 years to reach 20,000. It may only be a decade or so before they are OEC.;-)

Ravilyn Sanders · 18 August 2009

stevaroni said:
Has any scholar ever contested the ability to actually count those years using the Bible?
I believe Usher left fairly detailed notes about all his assumptions. I'm sure if one were to examine them carefully there's some serious room for re-calculation. But then again, no serious scholar actually cares, and no Biblical zealot wants to question it very deeply (that's just not what Biblical zealots do you see, once the answer is agreed upon, it's agreed to agree upon it from there on out).

Remember, Sir Isaac Newton finished inventing everything he wanted to in science by the time he was 30 years old or so. Then got himself a sinecure as the chief of the Royal Mint (*) and spent rest of his life trying to prove the Biblical Chronology. Not with much success. Funny thing is, the fundies hold out Newton as the model scientist who remained a God fearing man of faith despite his fame and name. If they really truly admired Newton, they would be digging at his Biblical research. They would have founded schools of philosophy based on Newton's work. But you don't find any Newtonian Doctrine of Religious Philosophy. Seminaries do not teach anything from that facet of Newton. They have not pursued any of his research in Biblical Chronology. Their actions show that they consider Newton's religious philosophy to be of no real value. Essentially they urge scientists to be like Newton, they mean, "Meekly accept our authority and our right to do as we please. Do not challenge us. And if you are really great we will let you have a sinecure someplace or let you into the House of Lords". ============================================== (*) Newton as the chief of the mint introduced the concept of milling patterns at the edges of coins to foil people from scraping off gold from the edges. Today you find coins in nickel or copper with milled edges!

Stanton · 18 August 2009

Ravilyn Sanders said: Essentially they urge scientists to be like Newton, they mean, "Meekly accept our authority and our right to do as we please. Do not challenge us. And if you are really great we will let you have a sinecure someplace or let you into the House of Lords".

Actually, they're more along the lines of "Do not challenge us, do not challenge our authority, and most importantly, do not dare to challenge our (allegedly) Bible-based world view, and we will consider refraining from burning you at the stake like all the other heathens."

Jedidiah Palosaari · 18 August 2009

Very well written article; I totally agree. I just want to pull on one side-thread there.

All things being equal, the phrase "No matter how the experiment came out, God did it," would be completely in keeping with a theistic evolution standpoint, where God exists yet everything happens according to observable and testable natural laws.

fnxtr · 18 August 2009

It's not a Science Fair, it's a "Science" Fair.

Just another Cargo Cult ceremony.

fnxtr · 18 August 2009

It's not a Science Fair, it's a "Science" Fair.

Just another Cargo Cult ceremony.

fnxtr · 18 August 2009

sorry about that, I got an error the first time, then suddenly they were both there.

eric · 18 August 2009

A few misc. thoughts...

Ron Okimoto said: For some reason Usher's estimate was put into Protestant Bibles.

Ron, are you sure? I always thought the dating was an extra-biblical bit of folklore/doctrine, I don't think its "in" the bible, not even protestant ones.

Stevaroni said:But then again, no serious scholar actually cares, and no Biblical zealot wants to question it very deeply...

Any scholar worth their name washed their hands of the fundies when they declared the 17th-cent, English translation KJV to be the one true official bible. Ussher didn't even use the KJV, which was produced during his lifetime. The fact that fundies use Ussher while rejecting the authority of non-KJV sources just illustrates that they pick and choose whatever evidence they want in support of their predetermined conclusion.

Students should be able, with a clear conscience, to sign the AiG Statement of Faith

I actually take this wording as a good sign. I don't think the "with clear conscience" clause appeared in the science fair document last year. I take it as a sign of increasing desperation that AIG has to start adding "and you must really, really mean it" language into their agreements.

stevaroni · 18 August 2009

sorry about that, I got an error the first time, then suddenly they were both there.

Poofism!

raven · 18 August 2009

I take it as a sign of increasing desperation that AIG has to start adding “and you must really, really mean it” language into their agreements.

Ham has a history of conflicts with his co-religionists. Some Australians said that his cult in Australia had a schism where each side accused the other of witchcraft and incest. Then the USA AIG schismed from the Australian branch and the Australian AIG sued them. This is one way that cults die. They become increasingly dogmatic and doctrinaire and people end up leaving on fine points of disagreement and disallusionment with dictatorial rule that is often corrupt. Or they schism for one reason or another. Ham might be a lot crazier than people think he is and that is saying a lot. He seems to be more than a little paranoid. When the Ohio Skeptics showed up, his goons photographed all their cars in the parking lot.

Frank J · 18 August 2009

We can only hope that this is some type of exponential movement towards the correct estimate. A few hundred years to reach 10,000, and only 30 or 40 years to reach 20,000. It may only be a decade or so before they are OEC.;-)
— Ron Okimoto

Even if it takes longer, YEC will eventually go the way of Flat-earthism and Geocentrism. But Old-Earth-Young-Life will probably sell much longer to the "no-death-before-the-Fall" crowd. On that note... Ray Martinez, if you're reading, please enter, then make sure to complain when you're "expelled."

Dave Luckett · 18 August 2009

The murky goings-on that resulted in the schisms of 1987 and 2005 of organisations that were associated with Ham are difficult to follow, but here's a summary: http://unbelief.org/articles/creationism-a-house-divided/

The gist of it seems to be that each of the three original "leaders" of the cult couldn't bear the thought of not being Top Dog, but that Ham is slightly more functional than the other two, who really are nickel-and-dime fruit loops. They still have a "ministry" that consists essentially of haranguing mouth-breathers in Ipswich, Queensland, a place that makes upstate Alabama look like Periclean Athens, and where anything can happen, usually between close relatives.

So why did Ham go to America? Same reason John Dillinger robbed banks - "That's where they keep the money."

Mike Elzinga · 18 August 2009

raven said: Ham might be a lot crazier than people think he is and that is saying a lot. He seems to be more than a little paranoid. When the Ohio Skeptics showed up, his goons photographed all their cars in the parking lot.

One can get a sample of the cultish flavor of his organization by watching their Answers in Genesis programs on the TCT religion channel on TV. There is little question that this organization is in the business of propaganda. There are plenty of sales pitches for their books and literature at the end of each program. These are aimed not only at individual families, but at schools and churches as well. Many of these programs employ an intense gallop that excruciatingly details living systems in order to make the argument that evolution could not have possibly produced such complexity and functionality. Ham is often at the center of the advertising pitches. You can get entire books and lectures by him. You can also get CDs of lectures by the various “Dr. Scientists” in his organization. It’s clear that Ham is in control.

Frank J · 18 August 2009

This is one way that cults die. They become increasingly dogmatic and doctrinaire and people end up leaving on fine points of disagreement and disallusionment with dictatorial rule that is often corrupt. Or they schism for one reason or another.
— raven

Or they go the "evolve" into the DI - via "survival of the don't ask, don't tell-est."

Mike Elzinga · 18 August 2009

Dave Luckett said: The murky goings-on that resulted in the schisms of 1987 and 2005 of organisations that were associated with Ham are difficult to follow, but here's a summary: http://unbelief.org/articles/creationism-a-house-divided/

Great article, Dave. Thanks.

Robin · 18 August 2009

raven said: Here is some data below from fundie sources.

For what it is worth, the Barna Group, while Christian, is not Fundamentalist. That may be a nitpick to most folk reading, but from my experience with the poll group they are dedicated to sound sampling and polling principles and are taken seriously in terms of their data. They have done a number of polls and reports on the disparity between divorce within and outside the bible-belt, where the bible belt folks show a marked increase in their divorce rate. Ditto for teen sex and a number of other social issues. As I understand it, they really are trying to give Christians - that is, those who truly judge only themselves by the bible - the information for self improvement.

Matt Young · 18 August 2009

Same reason John Dillinger robbed banks - "That's where they keep the money."

That was Willie ("because that's where the money is") Sutton, only Wikipedia says he didn't really say it either.

waynef · 18 August 2009

"4. Students should be able, with a clear conscience, to"

"lie through their teeth".

Used car salesmen in training...

Desertphile · 18 August 2009

Okay, so Rev Ham insists that Christianity in the USA is "collapsing." How does he explain the 83% of the population being Christians?

As for teenagers fleeing the Christian Death Cult when they turn 18, Rev Ham should see how many teens and post-teens are flooding into Wicca these. Maybe Ken Ham should start offering clothing-optional drum circles and invocations to Inanna if he wants to keep young people interested.

Desertphile · 18 August 2009

As for the Creationism "science 'fair,'" someone should try to turn a woman into a pillar of salt.

Stanton · 18 August 2009

waynef said: "4. Students should be able, with a clear conscience, to" "lie through their teeth". Used car salesmen in training...

When you lie, slander, steal and or cheat for Jesus' sake, it isn't really wrong because it's for Jesus, and Jesus will forgive you because you're doing it for Him (nevermind that He said He really, really hates it when people lie, slander, steal, cheat or do other bad things in His name).

Desertphile said: Okay, so Rev Ham insists that Christianity in the USA is "collapsing." How does he explain the 83% of the population being Christians?

Because the vast majority of that 83% of the USA do not think what he tells them to think, have not even heard of him, or worse yet, do not give him their hard-earned money when he tells them to give him their money.

Wheels · 18 August 2009

waynef: “4. Students should be able, with a clear conscience, to” “lie through their teeth”. Used car salesmen in training…

No no, car salesmen generally know that they're trying to push a steaming pile on a buyer. Kids this young don't know how wrong AiG's party line really is. They are the buyer.

Stanton said:
Desertphile said: Okay, so Rev Ham insists that Christianity in the USA is "collapsing." How does he explain the 83% of the population being Christians?
Because the vast majority of that 83% of the USA do not think what he tells them to think, have not even heard of him, or worse yet, do not give him their hard-earned money when he tells them to give him their money.

Yep. It's important to keep in mind that a lot of fundamentalists put the "actual" number of "real Christians" much lower than %80, sometimes only a quarter of that number. Because the liberal theology churches (Catholicism, etc.) aren't really Christian.

Wheels · 18 August 2009

Also, trying to post just now I got this error:

You tried to set inexistent column build_interval to value on MT::PluginData

I hit the Update button and my post was there anyway.

fnxtr · 18 August 2009

The error I got earlier was in a similar vein, but spoke of inexisent ID or something.

fnxtr · 18 August 2009

inexistent. Is that a word? I know it's a pronounceable series of phonemes, but is it a word?

Ray Martinez · 18 August 2009

Michael Roberts said: P.S. It goes without saying that AIG is crap.

They accept the concepts of "evolution" and "selection" to exist in nature. The Fundies are in Darwin's camp (what a relief).

SLC · 18 August 2009

Dave Luckett said: The murky goings-on that resulted in the schisms of 1987 and 2005 of organisations that were associated with Ham are difficult to follow, but here's a summary: http://unbelief.org/articles/creationism-a-house-divided/ The gist of it seems to be that each of the three original "leaders" of the cult couldn't bear the thought of not being Top Dog, but that Ham is slightly more functional than the other two, who really are nickel-and-dime fruit loops. They still have a "ministry" that consists essentially of haranguing mouth-breathers in Ipswich, Queensland, a place that makes upstate Alabama look like Periclean Athens, and where anything can happen, usually between close relatives. So why did Ham go to America? Same reason John Dillinger robbed banks - "That's where they keep the money."

Actually, that quote is atributed to Willie Sutton.

skeptexas · 18 August 2009

Science fair? More like science fail.

Jim Harrison · 18 August 2009

Francis Bacon pointed out long ago that "Truth emerges more readily from error than from confusion," which is why the Biblical literalists of his era (the 17th Century) actually played a role in the development of modern geology and archeology. Bible-readers set out to nail down exactly how the flood worked and how the various sons of Noah populated the world and in the process began the field work that utterly overturned their own worldview. You can't shoot down an allegory very easily, but you can blow up a purported chronology by looking at strata and tree rings or digging up old ruins. Of course the contemporary creationists don't have enough confidence in their own notions to do genuine research of any kind. Maybe they understand that taking their own ideas that seriously would destroy their credibility even for the true believers.

fnxtr · 18 August 2009

JimNorth said: (psst...Richard...it's Feb 27, 2010) You may send this post to the bathroom wall...

My birthday. No, I don't want to go.

Frank J · 18 August 2009

Ray Martinez said:
Michael Roberts said: P.S. It goes without saying that AIG is crap.
They accept the concepts of "evolution" and "selection" to exist in nature. The Fundies are in Darwin's camp (what a relief).

Hi, Ray. Did you see my comment of 8/18, 11:13? It's not really a relief until you hit them where it hurts. C'mon, do it. It'll be easier than finishing your paper, because you just have to apply, then tell everyone how you got "expelled" by those in "Darwin's camp."

Frank J · 18 August 2009

fnxtr said: inexistent. Is that a word? I know it's a pronounceable series of phonemes, but is it a word?

Irregardless of whether it's a word it at least hones in on one. ;-)

ravilyn.sanders · 18 August 2009

Frank J said:
fnxtr said: inexistent. Is that a word? I know it's a pronounceable series of phonemes, but is it a word?
Irregardless of whether it's a word it at least hones in on one. ;-)

Please dont' misunderestimate our vocabulary.

David Fickett-Wilbar · 18 August 2009

Desertphile said: Okay, so Rev Ham insists that Christianity in the USA is "collapsing." How does he explain the 83% of the population being Christians?

Remember that the definition of "Christian" used by Fundamentalists is "Fundamentalist Christian."

Dave Luckett · 18 August 2009

SLC said: Actually, that quote is atributed to Willie Sutton.

I stand corrected. I was wrong. I apologise to Mr Dillinger, but not to Mr Ham.

DavidK · 18 August 2009

U.S. News just came out with a ranking of states that were deficient in "brain power."

Not every state in the union can be full of geniuses, right? At least that's what, at first glance, one might conclude after seeing the results of the "life'sDHA Index of Brain Health," an assessment that ranks all 50 states and the District of Columbia according to what its creators consider to be factors supporting brain health.

Washington, D.C., and nine brain-healthy states made the top 10 list.

Here are the 10 lowest-ranking states: Indiana, North Dakota, South Carolina, Arkansas, Kentucky, Tennessee, Mississippi, Alabama, Oklahoma, and, in dead last, Louisiana.

Guess which ones support and/or promote creationism.

ndt · 18 August 2009

I don't think these kids have "no chance". A few may figure out things don't add up, investigate, and get the real story. But they're starting with a big disadvantage.

KP · 19 August 2009

Ray Martinez said: They accept the concepts of "evolution" and "selection" to exist in nature. The Fundies are in Darwin's camp (what a relief).

Only insofar as it helps them "explain" how three couples, where the males had the similar genotypes that are typical of siblings, could have re-populated the whole world and given rise to the entire range of variability seen across the entire human species today. Go look up a picture of an Inuit or an Australian Aborigine and try to convince yourself that these are descendants of Noah, just 200-300 generations ago.

Stanton · 19 August 2009

KP, don't you know it's a mortal, unforgivable sin in Ray's warped personal version of Christianity to look at evidence?

RBH · 19 August 2009

Wheels said: Also, trying to post just now I got this error:
You tried to set inexistent column build_interval to value on MT::PluginData
I hit the Update button and my post was there anyway.

I'll pitch it to our gurus.

Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry · 19 August 2009

-mouth-breathers in Ipswich, Queensland, a place that makes upstate Alabama look like Periclean Athens, and where anything can happen, usually between close relatives

hahahahahahahahahahaha

Having spent lots of time in Ippy while cruising out snake-catching, I can attest to the veracity of this statement.... White Trash in the Mist!! Dian Fossey eat your heart out:D

Frank J · 19 August 2009

David Fickett-Wilbar said:
Desertphile said: Okay, so Rev Ham insists that Christianity in the USA is "collapsing." How does he explain the 83% of the population being Christians?
Remember that the definition of "Christian" used by Fundamentalists is "Fundamentalist Christian."

Or that the definition of "Christian" used by Ray Martinez is "Ray Martinez."

Reed A. Cartwright · 19 August 2009

test

fnxtr · 19 August 2009

ravilyn.sanders said:
Frank J said:
fnxtr said: inexistent. Is that a word? I know it's a pronounceable series of phonemes, but is it a word?
Irregardless of whether it's a word it at least hones in on one. ;-)
Please dont' misunderestimate our vocabulary.

... and that's when I killed them, your honour.

KP · 19 August 2009

Stanton said: KP, don't you know it's a mortal, unforgivable sin in Ray's warped personal version of Christianity to look at evidence?

Y'know, it's too bad we're all so overworked keeping up with doing REAL SCIENCE that we dont have time, but: I think it would be really hilarious to generate some hypotheses from Genesis (e.g., population genetics of post-Flood species discussed above), actually do some tests that will easily falsify them, and then write up the results for submission to one of their "journals." I'm sure they would get rejected, but a glut of submissions that directly refute the "natural history" of Genesis would hopefully creep into at least a few of their consciences...

raven · 19 August 2009

(e.g., population genetics of post-Flood species discussed above), actually do some tests that will easily falsify them,

Waste of time. There are so many problems with The Flood, that the creos just wave their hands and say, goddidit. This answers all objections and explains nothing. What they never address is that The Salvage Operation was a near total catastrophe. We now know that 99.9% of the animal life didn't survive the flood including all the nonavian dinosaurs. This was with heavy supernatural support. Any rescue operation with a 99.9% extinction rate has to be rated as a very poor effort. About that all powerful deity....

Dave Luckett · 19 August 2009

The wonderful thing about miracles is that there's no limit to them.

"Where did all the water for the Flood come from?" Some from Heaven, and some from under the earth. "What held it there until the Flood?" God. It was a miracle. "Where did it all go, afterwards?" Into the reshaped ocean basins, which were much deeper than before. "Where did the energy to do this vast restructuring of the Earth's crust come from?" God. It was a miracle. "Where did the massive amounts of heat from friction resulting from this process go?" God took it away. It was a miracle.

And so on. If what's in the Bible is and must be literal fact, then whatever miracles that were required to make it happen, happened. What's the problem with that? God can do anything, by definition.

Oddly enough, I'd have less problem with these loons if they actually stuck by that sort of thinking, and were open about it. It would only mean that they were totally irrelevant. But they don't. They often maintain the fiction that they actually do science - that is, explain observed effects by natural causes. At that point, they cease to be merely opposed to rational enquiry, but become subversive of it.

It's not that this... edifice is an affront and an insult to reason that so much infuriates me. It's that it pretends to be a museum. That is not only an insult, it's a gross lie. It deliberately sets out to destroy rational enquiry, not by opposing it openly, but by pretending to emulate it. It's not only a falsehood, it's a betrayal.

Stanton · 20 August 2009

KP said: I think it would be really hilarious to generate some hypotheses from Genesis (e.g., population genetics of post-Flood species discussed above), actually do some tests that will easily falsify them, and then write up the results for submission to one of their "journals." I'm sure they would get rejected, but a glut of submissions that directly refute the "natural history" of Genesis would hopefully creep into at least a few of their consciences...

ZOMG!!! I think I'm getting the vapors! *faints from marker fumes*

Aagcobb · 20 August 2009

DavidK said: U.S. News just came out with a ranking of states that were deficient in "brain power." Not every state in the union can be full of geniuses, right? At least that's what, at first glance, one might conclude after seeing the results of the "life'sDHA Index of Brain Health," an assessment that ranks all 50 states and the District of Columbia according to what its creators consider to be factors supporting brain health. Washington, D.C., and nine brain-healthy states made the top 10 list. Here are the 10 lowest-ranking states: Indiana, North Dakota, South Carolina, Arkansas, Kentucky, Tennessee, Mississippi, Alabama, Oklahoma, and, in dead last, Louisiana. Guess which ones support and/or promote creationism.

Actually, I was very suprised to see that an article linked to by the NCSE gave South Carolina an "A" for how evolution is treated in its science standards. Indiana also got an "A", but the three bottom states on the brain power list all got an "F".

stevaroni · 20 August 2009

What they never address is that (Noah's) Salvage Operation was a near total catastrophe. We now know that 99.9% of the animal life didn’t survive the flood including all the nonavian dinosaurs.

See, I've got this all figured out - the problem was that Noah arranged things alphabetically, foolishly putting the tyranasaurs right next to the unicorns...

eric · 20 August 2009

raven said: Any rescue operation with a 99.9% extinction rate has to be rated as a very poor effort.

...Unless the goal was mass genocide.

waynef · 20 August 2009

stevaroni said:
What they never address is that (Noah's) Salvage Operation was a near total catastrophe. We now know that 99.9% of the animal life didn’t survive the flood including all the nonavian dinosaurs.
See, I've got this all figured out - the problem was that Noah arranged things alphabetically, foolishly putting the tyranasaurs right next to the unicorns...

FYI, zebras survived because at the time they were called aebras. I bet you didn't know that.

jasonmitchell · 20 August 2009

Desertphile said: Okay, so Rev Ham insists that Christianity in the USA is "collapsing." How does he explain the 83% of the population being Christians? ....

that is because he uses an Orwellian definition of the word "Christian" to mean groups of fundies like him. Same thing for some commentators on Fox News claiming that 'Christians' are being descriminated against etc.

Wheels · 21 August 2009

Is it almost time for the War on Christmas again?

Marion Delgado · 25 August 2009

Why's an Aussie doing a state of the nation, is he naturalized?

Marion Delgado · 25 August 2009

Wait, we exiled Jesus, shot down Santa, and genetically modified all Christmas trees so they'd form natural menorahs and you couldn't get two straight pieces to form a cross. We passed a law saying all holiday-mas ornaments had to be moon-and-crescent balls. What more need we do? Christmas! Gone! First 100 days!