Don't Diss Darwin

Heh.

I notice that texas university in Austin is being targeted, but Texas A&M and Texas Tech are not. I wonder if that says anything about the gullibility of the students of that school up in Austin...

(Gig'Em Aggies)

This is the biggest piece of crap I have ever seen and I've seen lots. The fact that this guy thought that anyone would be stupid enough to fall for this sham shows the low esteem in which he holds the intelligence of the average citizen. Unfortunately, half of the people in this country do have below average intelligence, so he probably will eventually find sumeone stupid enough to fall for this.

The intoduction contains every creationist misconception and misrepresentation known to man, Including:

p. 9 "sheeer chance"

p. 10 "sheer accident"

in relation to DNA. Didn't this guy even read the book? Hasn't he even heard of natural selection?

And in relation to transitional forms:

p. 14 "missing links have been debunked"

p. 15 "different animals with similar hearing ability"

The latter describing transitional forms between whales and terrestrial mammals. I mean seriously, anyone who tries to justify the ear bones of whales and whale intermediates this way is either too stupid to breathe or too dishonest to be allowed to waste the air he breathes.

This is a great opportunity for the insanity of creationism to be exposed to the general public. Show these scoundels up for the lying hypocrites they really are. Make them explain why they wasted so much money on distributing these lies when they could havce funded research of even education.

I just forwarded a link from here and NCSE to Gary Bradford at UBC evolutionary biology.

And Arne Mooers at SFU.

Neither of my schools, University of Colorado and Air Force Academy are on the list ... should I be insulted or grateful?

Genie Scott debates Comfort in Dan Gilgoff's column in US News and World Report here, here, here, and here. Comfort--no surprise--reveals himself as an ignoramus.

If there is any good news, it is that Gilgoff asked his readers in a poll, "Will You Read Creationist Take on Darwin's 'Origin of Species'?" As of now, 78% of an unknown number of respondents answered No.

Dr. Scott has more patience than I.

They are accepting donations to purchase them, and their goal is 250k. They are charging $5 per book, so they didn't waste a dime. In fact, if they hit their goal of 250k books, they will have made 1.25 million dollars tax free.

Ha! Caltech! Do they think that the boys and girls in Pasadena need more scratch paper? (Maybe they'll use it as wadding for the Fleming House cannon.)

Well, both my local Unis (#1 and #2 in Canada list) are in the Bananaman's sights, as is my first alma (#3). We'll have to see what we can drum up....

Does it say anywhere where at these universities Comfort will be giving out the books? Because I'll be visiting my undergrad then and I want to seek them out and call their bullshit.

Oh, yeah, and Dr. Hintz at UVic, too.

Where did the list of schools come from? For the US schools, it appears to be simply a regurgitation of the first 50 schools in the U.S. News & World Report's annual ranking of national universities. I'm dubious and would wager that Ray's minions won't be anywhere in sight at most of the listed schools. It's a ploy to sell more books.

Michael

Michael Tuite said: Where did the list of schools come from? For the US schools, it appears to be simply a regurgitation of the first 50 schools in the U.S. News & World Report's annual ranking of national universities. I'm dubious and would wager that Ray's minions won't be anywhere in sight at most of the listed schools. It's a ploy to sell more books. Michael

I'd like to be there at the University of Michigan when they try to hand out something that says that intermediate forms do not exist on the same campus where Phillip Gingerich works and where some of fossil iintermediates are actually on display. That would be a real hoot. That would be like the flat earthers meeting Columbus on his return and claiming that he was an imposter because the real one fell of the edge of the earth!

I, for one, welcome the Banana Man to the Controversy. He's such an extreme farce that it's now easier than ever to debunk creationism.

DS said: I'd like to be there at the University of Michigan when they try to hand out something that says that intermediate forms do not exist on the same campus where Phillip Gingerich works and where some of fossil iintermediates are actually on display.

That would be like the flat earthers meeting Columbus on his return and claiming that he was an imposter because the real one fell of the edge of the earth!

Isn't the simple fact that Comfort's introduction is massively plagiarized the most damning argument? Add to that that they're asking for donations of money for it. Most rank-and-file evangelical types do care about people not lying, so if they hear about this they may have a negative reaction to Comfort's self-publicity scheme.

Anyway, who is to do the distribution on campuses? Has he employed people to do it, or is he relying on local Campus Crusade types? If the latter, they might be less than enthusiastic when the plagiarism is pointed out.

hat would be like the flat earthers meeting Columbus on his return and claiming that he was an imposter because the real one fell of the edge of the earth!

Joe Felsenstein said: Isn't the simple fact that Comfort's introduction is massively plagiarized the most damning argument? Add to that that they're asking for donations of money for it. Most rank-and-file evangelical types do care about people not lying, so if they hear about this they may have a negative reaction to Comfort's self-publicity scheme. Anyway, who is to do the distribution on campuses? Has he employed people to do it, or is he relying on local Campus Crusade types? If the latter, they might be less than enthusiastic when the plagiarism is pointed out.

Joe Felsenstein said: Isn't the simple fact that Comfort's introduction is massively plagiarized the most damning argument?

Wheels said:

Joe Felsenstein said: Isn't the simple fact that Comfort's introduction is massively plagiarized the most damning argument?

I feel like I've missed something.

Similarly, I'd love to be there when they try the "no transitional forms" BS at the University of Chicago where Jerry Coyne, Paul Sereno, and Neil Shubin all work.

Off topic, but I can't resist. The whole Columbus/flat earth business annoys me to no end. Every year I have to explain to high school students that the Portuguese refused to finance Columbus because they knew his proposed voyage was impossible with existing means. They knew the earth is spherical, and they had a much better idea of its size than Columbus did. They thought he would die somewhere at sea long before reaching Asia. Magellan proved them right. Even a century later Francis Drake had no easy time of it.

I wonder if Michael Behe will avail himself of the opportunity to learn some evolution?

— Richard B. Hoppe

I urge scientists and interested folks on the infected campuses to seek immunization from the NCSE page.

— Richard B. Hoppe

Maybe we should get NCSE to go to the two hundred largest fundy churches in the country and pass out copies of The Origin - without the fake introduction. Of course that would only be an effective strategy if you could find enough churches that had a problem with the theory of evolution. Somehow I don't think that that would be a big problem.

If anyone finds this suggestion offensive, then perhaps you are getting the idea.

Of course I also like the idea of standing up in the choir with a sign giving the latest football score at Sunday services. Think about it.

Similarly, I’d love to be there when they try the “no transitional forms” BS at the University of Chicago where Jerry Coyne, Paul Sereno, and Neil Shubin all work.

Matherly said: Heh. I notice that texas university in Austin is being targeted, but Texas A&M and Texas Tech are not. I wonder if that says anything about the gullibility of the students of that school up in Austin... (Gig'Em Aggies)

DS said: Maybe we should get NCSE to go to the two hundred largest fundy churches in the country and pass out copies of The Origin - without the fake introduction. Of course that would only be an effective strategy if you could find enough churches that had a problem with the theory of evolution. Somehow I don't think that that would be a big problem. If anyone finds this suggestion offensive, then perhaps you are getting the idea. Of course I also like the idea of standing up in the choir with a sign giving the latest football score at Sunday services. Think about it.

Comfort is boring. I prefer Michael Ruse's most unusual "dissing" of Darwin. He recently wrote, "Today, thank goodness, not one item of Darwin’s thinking remains intact; but, at the same time, everything that Darwin had to say is as vital and relevant as it ever was."

Frank said: Comfort is boring.

Kirk, grab my banana while I discuss comfort sex!

Ray, go @#$@$ a crocoduck!

It seems You've got new "Harun Yahya" in US.

My condolences.

Maybe what the NCSE Comfort Flyer needs is a tree of life figure showing the relationships between all livings organisms, including bananas and humans. Maybe then this twit would get the idea. Misrepresenting science to ridicule it doesn't make science look bad, it only demonstrates how intellectually deficient and morally bankrupt the perpetrator really is.

What's next for this guy? Is he going to claim the world is flat and prove it by taking a picture of the earth from an airplane while pointing the camera straight down, then distribute pictures at universities where they promote the round earth conspiracy?

Is he going to challenge the germ theory of disease by taking antibiotics and still getting MERSA?

Is he going to claim that there is no global warming because the temperature at the bottom of a large lake remains cold even in the summer?

Is he going to claim that space isn't really a vacuum because on Star Trek the Enterprise makes a noise as it goes through space?

Is he going to claim that humans and dinosaurs coexisted and cite the Flintstones as evidence?

What's next, witch hunts and inquisitions. or maybe holy wars and crusades? It's a free country, but there really ought to be a tax on stupidity, well besides the lottery.

Joe Felsenstein said: Comfort's 50-page introduction to the Origin is apparently a massive cut-and-paste job with a small number of words changed, drawn from sources which did not give him permission to copy their words.

Logicman said: Neither of my schools, University of Colorado and Air Force Academy are on the list ... should I be insulted or grateful?

Hey, my son is going to one of the Universities on the list. Maybe he can get me a free copy. Mine copy is old and a paperback whose pages are turning orange with age. He is majoring in molecular biology, what departments are targeted? If they send them to the English department he likely won't get one.

When Comfort comes calling, each sane person on campus should carry a poster showing a transitional form, and then form a time line for each well-know transitional sequence, e.g. humans, whales, horses. Then parade past Comfort and ask him to comment. (Fight theatrics with theatrics.)

31. Lehigh University (PA)

I have no idea how Lehigh got anywhere near the front lines of the creationism debate.

When Comfort comes to my Canuck U, I think I'll be there with a transitional fossil on my T-shirt and placard in my hand saying “Reunite Gondwanaland!”.

Karen S. said:

I have no idea how Lehigh got anywhere near the front lines of the creationism debate.

Perhaps because Professor Michael Behe teaches there?

Seeing as I attend one of these top 100 universities (Penn State- University Park) I will probably encounter some of Comfort's acolytes passing out this drivel. Those flyers will come in handy! Thank you for providing a link, I will make good use of this information!

I am a Christian myself, but I am also an anthropology student. I can tolerate street preachers, but liars peddling "Creation science" is where I draw the line.

Joe Felsenstein said:

Frank said: Comfort is boring.

Yes, and knows no biology. But he seems to be a genius at publicity. Ken Ham had to build a multimillion-dollar museum, but Ray Comfort got more publicity by making a three-minute video (in science it is sometimes said that to get a lot of citations, write a paper that makes a famous mistake). Now he has us all fired up with his list of colleges and his “free” book. But Michael Tuite (above) pointed out that the list is just a recycling of the US News and World Report list of best colleges. Is anybody going to show up and distribute the book on them on the 19th? One wonders.

Me: I mentioned that Comfort is boring, then added a neat quote by Michael Ruse.

Joe Felsenstein commented only on the boring part of my post, the first part. Care to comment on the more interesting Ruse quote?

I have found creationists to be the most massively less-well-read-than-they-pretend people I have met. If they end up reading OOS, along with a blurb which is identical to the creationist content they have already seen anyway, sounds like a good start to me

Frank said: Joe Felsenstein commented only on the boring part of my post, the first part. Care to comment on the more interesting Ruse quote?

Now that Comfort has restored the missing chapters I'm not sure its much of a threat.
Consider the value of having students analyze the relative merits of the arguments made in the intro and the arguments made by Darwin. IMO Comfort's not going to come off looking well to anyone who actually reads the whole thing.

Fross' point about them making money off of other people's work (twice over!) disturbs me more than the "threat" posed by the introduction.

Frank said: Care to comment on the more interesting Ruse quote?

Frankly Tomh, I think Ruse is a pretty decent philosopher, and scientists are generally lacking depth in that (what I consider important) field -- we need more of them. Perhaps you can recommend a philosopher of science that you think is top-notch?

Well my alma mater is on the list. Apparently we are godless. I think I am proud that we made the list. Go Tribe (College of William and Mary). But no UVa. Strange to have W&M and miss UVa.

The Ruse quote from Frank is simply wrong. He claims that "not one item of Darwin's thinking remains intact". This is demonstrably incorrect: common descent, natural selection, sexual selection. Earthworms.

Oh, and I forgot: Francis Bacon is one of the best philosophers of science ever, and he predates the term "scientist". Read the Advancement of Learning.

Stephen, I think Ruse knows darn well about those four things you mentioned. Quickly calling him wrong is probably due to understanding him in a way he didn't intend.

Francis Bacon? Can you come up with someone who was NOT a bible believer? Sheesh, you just recommended a man who wrote "A little philosophy inclineth man’s mind to atheism but depth of philosophy bringeth a man’s mind about to religion.” AND “There are two books laid before us to study, to prevent our falling into error: first, the volume of the Scriptures, which reveal the will of God; then the volume of the Creatures, which express His power." AND wrote a poem that starts with "O sing a new song, to our God above." --- Ah, but I agree with you, Stephen, he was indeed a great philosopher of 'science.'

Note, the same site I got this from said that Christians should be wary of Baconian philosophy, so it's not as though Bacon was totally "one of them."

stevaroni said:

31. Lehigh University (PA)

Lehigh, Lehigh, Lehigh. Why is Lehigh always involved in this? Back when I went there lo these many years ago it was a respectable, dull engineering school with an awful sex ratio, so we basically studied and drank quite heavily and lurked at the girls' schools nearby. - you know, things that you're supposed to do in college. Our school colors were brown and white, for crying out loud! Our team was called the "Fightin' Engineers" Try this cheer on for size - "Go Big Brown Engineers! Go!" Occasionally, during Greek Week someone would get carried away and set fire to something larger than he should, but we'd always put it out. Basically, we were dull, and that, in retrospect, was good. I have no idea how Lehigh got anywhere near the front lines of the creationism debate. I suspect it has something to do with them finally banning open containers of alcohol from the campus. I knew that no good would come of that.

henry babbled: Alcohol and evolution. Interesting combination.

I guess us cdesign proponentsists will just have to come up with a suitable counter counter-offensive (aka 'gorilla' tactics) .

I propose handing out an ID talking points memo rebutting the NCSE entitled:

"Don't Dish Darwin. The English are Notorious for Bland Foods".

:)

Steve P. said: I guess us cdesign proponentsists will just have to come up with a suitable counter counter-offensive (aka 'gorilla' tactics) . I propose handing out an ID talking points memo rebutting the NCSE entitled: "Don't Dish Darwin. The English are Notorious for Bland Foods". :)

stevaroni said:

31. Lehigh University (PA)

Lehigh, Lehigh, Lehigh. Why is Lehigh always involved in this?

Ken said:

stevaroni said:

31. Lehigh University (PA)

Lehigh, Lehigh, Lehigh. Why is Lehigh always involved in this?

Perhaps Lehigh's history as a wrestling powerhouse makes it an ideal place for Behe and his ilk to wrestle with reality? - K.

Frank said: I think Ruse knows darn well about those four things you mentioned. Quickly calling him wrong is probably due to understanding him in a way he didn't intend.

What part of “Darwin’s thinking” do you suppose Ruse means is not intact, if not the ideas that he wrote about?

Behe is right. There is an edge to evolution. Molecules have a limited range of choices to deal with mutations and there is a threshold they cannot break through.

Steve P. said: Behe is right. There is an edge to evolution. Molecules have a limited range of choices to deal with mutations and there is a threshold they cannot break through. Sorry if that empirical evidence bothers some. Logic is brutal and oblivious to worldviews.

Steve P. said: What is not intact is Darwin's supposition that his observations of adaptive change in species can account for historical biological development.

Darwin's logic was dulled by his emotions.

I suspect the logic of many posters on this board is dulled by their dislike of fundamentalist organized religion.

Whatever the case may be, you cannot logically conclude that what you see in the miscroscope today is evidence of historical biological development.

Behe is right. There is an edge to evolution. Molecules have a limited range of choices to deal with mutations and there is a threshold they cannot break through. Sorry if that empirical evidence bothers some.

Logic is brutal and oblivious to worldviews.

Steve P. said: Whatever the case may be, you cannot logically conclude that what you see in the miscroscope today is evidence of historical biological development.

Behe is right. There is an edge to evolution. Molecules have a limited range of choices to deal with mutations and there is a threshold they cannot break through.

Sorry if that empirical evidence bothers some.

Logic is brutal and oblivious to worldviews.

Am surprised that Comfort has omitted Stony Brook University and the University of Arizona from his list since both have first-rate departments of evolutionary biology. Does he think he can surpass Harun Yahya?

Not to mention of course too, the University of Chicago, which is, regrettably, one of William Dembski's alma maters (Ph. D. in mathematics).

So how come neither you nor Behe can’t be bothered to identify what this alleged barrier to evolution is?

— Stanton

Matherly said: Heh. I notice that texas university in Austin is being targeted, but Texas A&M and Texas Tech are not. I wonder if that says anything about the gullibility of the students of that school up in Austin... (Gig'Em Aggies)

Dustin said: I'm sure it's because Ray Comfort thinks he's got all them red-necks in Lubbock and Bryan believing his tripe already. (Hook Em Horns)

stevaroni said:

Dustin said: I'm sure it's because Ray Comfort thinks he's got all them red-necks in Lubbock and Bryan believing his tripe already. (Hook Em Horns)

Speaking of Texas science denial, I was in Beaumont last week and had a couple of hours to kill. I wandered into the Texas Energy Museum, which is basically the story of oil exploration in Texas and the gulf. I was actually very pleasantly surprised that they don't mince any words on the origin of the Earth and how petroleum forms. All their displays state unequivocally that the earth is billions of years old and the oil underlying Texas is the mortal remains of simple marine organisms dating from the time long before the dinosaurs, back when Texas was an inland sea. They went so far as to compare and contrast the various oils, coals and shales found elsewhere in the states as far as time, means, and organisms of origin, and how that affects the finished product. They were unflinching in their explanations of ancient geology and timelines (too unflinching, in fact. It was too much detail even for me) They even talked about the source of the hydrogen and carbon in hydrocarbons, first generation stars. The only place where religion even got a mention was a small concession in an exhibit a the end, which discussed the big bang. The display started with "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth", but that was apparently just establishing mood, as they immediately started discussing the big bang and events thereafter in purely scientific terms. Every once in a while, I'm actually pleasantly surprised.