The Future of this Country? Please No!

*sigh*

this is modern Ohio?

...or did I just type an oxymoron.

The very last student to speak in the video honestly expresses something that a thousand agitated trolls are obsessively thinking, but won't express.

Yeah, someone linked this video over at WhyEvolutionIsTrue last night. Epic Fail.

I still can't get over the science teacher's "well, I can't just tell them their beliefs are wrong" stance, either. Possibly because I've never lived in an area that was quite religious enough to influence the science class in that regard, but considering that EVERY OTHER class in the school is going to involve the teacher telling a student that their beliefs are wrong (possibly excepting Jazz Band)... well, quite frankly he's not doing his job.

harold said: The very last student to speak in the video honestly expresses something that a thousand agitated trolls are obsessively thinking, but won't express.

We have this taught in some state schools in Britain.

I wish it had remained in the USA:)

Hey, is that last student the "microevolution" denying Ray Martinez? Wonder if he knows that most other creationists will tell him that African Americans and "whites" (I guess he means Europeans and Asians) are the same species, and produce fertile offspring like, uh, our president.

Alex hit the nail on the head. We wouldn't need an education system if we never had wrong ideas. The idea of a teacher not being able to tell a student they're wrong is just silly.

What's really upsetting is that these students aren't voicing any creationist errors, they're just incredulous. So (at least from the video) there seems to be plenty of room to educate them...this teacher's just not doing it.

Student: "How can an African American person evolve from a white person? We're different skin."

Teacher: "How can I say to the student, your ideas are trash? ... I couldn't do it."

It seems to me that these students have some genuine questions, and some "honest" misunderstandings. They're confused, and clearly don't understand either the course material, or even what they think they know. They're not even sure what questions to ask, or how to ask them. And here's the "science" teacher, telling them that their misunderstandings are correct. That their genuine questions have no scientific answer. If the teacher cannot correct these students' misunderstandings about the world, then he has no business being a science teacher. The man is incompetent. Even if he is sincere in his beliefs and trying to honestly walk a "fine line", he has no business being a science teacher.

Now, I realize that you can't simply tell the students that their "ideas are trash". You'd lose them right off the bat. What you can do (though I am not a teacher) is to explain what science is, what science tells us, and what science can't tell us. For the science teacher to give creation equal time is ludicrous, if not illegal.

I have not heard nor seen Freshwater. I would be curious if Mr. Hoppe could compare and contrast the teacher in this video with Freshwater. This teacher at least seems sincere, if misguided.

I'd also love to hear from Mr. Elzinga how he might help educate such students. It must be tricky to lead such students to answers they don't want to understand, or don't know that they can understand.

I'm just glad I never had to send my son to such a high school. Given what I know now, I think I would file a "Dover" suit.

this is modern Ohio?

Ichthyic said: *sigh* this is modern Ohio? ...or did I just type an oxymoron.

this is frightening

Such a cute girl with such a stupid brain and horrendous accent. The ginger kid we can just do without.

The accents STRONGLY indicate Tennessee.

Some parts of Ohio are near Kentucky, but to hear middle class looking people of that speaking with such strong southern accents, you really have to be in the South, and probably in a very small town. For full disclosure I am from a low income rural background and have many relatives who speak with a strong regional accent. I am making a statement of fact, not disparaging people.

For fairness, we see exactly three students speaking, one of whom is apparently expressing naive racism. The student depicted wearing a cross could easily be Catholic.

The only villain here is the teacher, who will hopefully be fired because of this. It is not illegal for students to ignorant, nor even for students to be racist. What is illegal is for a teacher to violate the constitution by favoring one particular religious view.

We are so fucked!

This documentary was released in 1996 in Dayton, TN. Still shocking, but probably not up-to-date.

Asking questions is not bad (even if they are way off base), but letting anyone continue to think such fantastical (and I do mean 'fantasy') crap is beyond me.

Take the whole skin-color issue. It is easy to show that the oldest human remains come from Africa. Then, its simple to ask, "So, if you lived in a very sunny region, what skin color would you likely have, white or black?"

How about the simple-to-complex issue. The oldest living creatures we've found in rocks are unicellular. Then follows multicellular life, complex organisms like fish, then air-breathing animals, etc. etc. until finally primates are the last to be found in the geologic record with separations of millions of years (if not hundreds of millions to even billions of years). So, why would we think they all formed at once when the geologic record shows one clearly formed way before the other? Yes, they all 'live' together now (minus the extinct species, which are numerous), but the fossil record is easy to understand in terms of what came before who.

If the science teacher can't show them the truth of science pass the blief of creationism, he needs a new job, NOW!

Ichthyic said: *sigh* this is modern Ohio? ...or did I just type an oxymoron.

"I believe that I give the evolutionary view...a fair shake"

Obviously the teacher isn't doing a very good job at teaching even the most basic aspects of evolution.

"Basically it's not been proven.. we couldn't have evolved from a simple organism into what we are now"
"How can an African american person evolve from white person?" (lol)

"Don't you know you're being one of those hick hillbillies believing all that religious stuff?"
At least got one thing right.

National Geographic Magazine described Dayton, TN, in an article which mentions one of their favorite hymns: "Hillbilly Heaven." God's honest truth!

Ichthyic said: *sigh* this is modern Ohio? ...or did I just type an oxymoron.

Chillax everyone. You have to remember there are far more people who don't believe this nonsense than those who do.

NoWorries said: You have to remember there are far more people who don't believe this nonsense than those who do.

ROFL. "How can an african american person evolve from awhite person... we are different skin?" HOW ABOUT THIS QUESTION:

How can humans evolve from a fish, or even better, a single cell organism.... THERE IS A HIGHER POWER people.

Scott said: ... Teacher: "How can I say to the student, your ideas are trash? ... I couldn't do it." It seems to me that these students have some genuine questions, and some "honest" misunderstandings. They're confused, and clearly don't understand either the course material, or even what they think they know. They're not even sure what questions to ask, or how to ask them. And here's the "science" teacher, telling them that their misunderstandings are correct. That their genuine questions have no scientific answer. If the teacher cannot correct these students' misunderstandings about the world, then he has no business being a science teacher. The man is incompetent. Even if he is sincere in his beliefs and trying to honestly walk a "fine line", he has no business being a science teacher. Now, I realize that you can't simply tell the students that their "ideas are trash". You'd lose them right off the bat. What you can do (though I am not a teacher) is to explain what science is, what science tells us, and what science can't tell us. For the science teacher to give creation equal time is ludicrous, if not illegal. ...

NoWorries said: Chillax everyone. You have to remember there are far more people who don't believe this nonsense than those who do.

taylor said: ROFL. "How can an african american person evolve from awhite person... we are different skin?" HOW ABOUT THIS QUESTION: How can humans evolve from a fish, or even better, a single cell organism.... THERE IS A HIGHER POWER people.

taylor said: How can humans evolve from a fish, or even better, a single cell organism.... THERE IS A HIGHER POWER people.

Do they really sound like they’re from Ohio to you?

Sweet plastic Jesus on my dashboard, can't you people READ the MANY other comments prior to your own also pointing this out?

there are 2 Daytons. I listened to 10 seconds of this before it sickened me, and frankly, guess what?

people DO move around occasionally

why, I've even heard people with Southern USA accents here in *gasp* New Zealand!

*shock* *horror*

for those thinking this would be unusual for Ohio... think again.

just ask RBH

These kids need to be strapped to chairs, with a speculum holding each eye open, in an aggressive reeducation program, Clockwork Orange style.

These kids need to be strapped to chairs, with a speculum holding each eye open, in an aggressive reeducation program, Clockwork Orange style.

If you listen to the xian reconstructionists, evidently this is what happens to kids who go through the public education system NOW.

:P

nonsense said: Such a cute girl with such a stupid brain and horrendous accent. The ginger kid we can just do without.

I tracked the video back to its origin. It is from a mid-1990s BBC documentary titled 'Science Friction: Creation'. The entire documentary is available from YouTube starting at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCpFtWvECfE

harold said: The very last student to speak in the video honestly expresses something that a thousand agitated trolls are obsessively thinking, but won't express.

I'll recall this teacher the next time someone tries to tell me that the stubborn nature of creationist belief in the US (the gallup poll percentages haven't changed much in over 20 years)has nothing to do with the quality of science education.

...again, while I may have confused Dayton Tennessee with Dayton Ohio, the "teaching moment" shown in this video could have been a film of Freshwater's classroom.

IOW, if you think this kind of thing couldn't happen in Ohio, you don't know Dick*.

*Richard B Hoppe

Not Jim-Bob -

You seem to have formed the bizarre impression that I am a creationist.

I guess my remark was a bit obscure.

The last guy in the video expresses a racist point of view. I was criticizing that, and implying that some trolls, not pro-science posters, secretly share such beliefs but don't admit so.

I consider it pretty strong stuff to accuse people of racism, so if they don't bring it up, I don't.

But in my personal experience, off the internet, some of the people I have known who denied the theory of evolution had issues about race. The idea that all humans are definitively closely genetically related and that all humans equally share non-human primate ancestry was a huge problem for them. This had nothing to do with Jesus. This is my personal experience. That is why I made that somewhat cynical comment.

Such a cute girl with such a stupid brain and horrendous accent.

NoWorries said: Chillax everyone. You have to remember there are far more people who don't believe this nonsense than those who do.

Dust off and nuke it from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

We are so f**ked!

Then please explain how teaching students religious nonsense in place of science in science classrooms is supposed to be improving these students?

And if they are being improved, why is it that they do not understand science or evolution?

Do you agree with that one boy who thinks that evolution is impossible because whites and African Americans have "different skin"?

Surely this thread is what July 4th is all about.

*headdesk*

And so Gary Hurd screams in horror

...and so FL bleats inanities.

Only the latter appears to be inevitable, regardless of the date in question.

Usually when you get a teacher like this in the public schools, there has been a screw-up in the administration as well.

During my consulting days for a number of local school districts, one of the major problems I saw with unqualified teachers is that they don’t get any correction from administrators, and other teachers are simply too busy to either take them under a wing or take them to task.

What I suspect is going on in this school is that there is not a critical mass of highly qualified teachers with connections to a wider community of educators. The teacher in this video is not linked into any professional community; and he doesn’t know that he is violating the law.

I think most students can be presented with a good biology course if the teacher is well-qualified, confident, knows his/her stuff, and is linked tightly with national organizations.

Under those circumstances, pushy, obnoxious parents and students don’t challenge the way these students do because they are actually learning interesting stuff. And they are not allowed to take gratuitous offense at being challenged to grapple with real science. This is done all the time with students from every kind of religious or non-religious background.

These students are not learning anything, and have effectively taken over the class. They have an intimidated and poorly qualified teacher on the ropes. And these students have been fed the kind of garbage Ken Ham and FL churn out. The students are not the villains; their preachers are.

FL, You have acknowledged: (1) God is all powerful. (2) God is unconditionally loving and ethical. (3) A literal/plain reading of the Bible is inerrantly consistent with (1) and (2).

Wow. 1+1=3 in your world.

As evidence you offer John 3:16. Sorry, try again. I said unconditionally loving and ethical, not sick and twisted as in the unnecessary sadistic sacrifice of a child. Think about it:)

FL said: The schoolkids in that video, bless their non-Darwinist hearts, are nowhere near ready to set foot on a secular college campus at their current level of knowledge/questions/whatever.

Ichthyic, a fellow antipodean, how quiant, so glad you're on the side of 'good!'

FL, I'll say this, 'yawn!'Defending these vacuous shells, is kind of like supporting Hitler; you know the guy who loathed Darwin because he suggested the 'master race' ultimately was sired in Africa.

I thought it was kind of interesting the 1st girl they focused on reminded me of an ape. Thats not me personally putting her down but almost makes me wonder considering the topic if that zoom wasnt done on purpose.

The questions they ask...well, its sort of like this for any subject. I could just see one of them "but...how can 1 + 1...equal 2? It just doesnt make any sense...." You know?

At the same time while Jeremiah FL was prophesying coming destruction because of the sins of the nation, a number of other prophets were prophesying peace. The LORD had Jeremiah FL speak against these false prophets.

FL said: (1) There are many, MANY public school districts in which that teacher would have been fired already for not exclusively preaching and enforcing the Gospel of Evolution in his classroom. The fact is that Science teachers who want to move past canned one-sided Darwin Indoctrination, and get on with teaching science wherever the evidence leads, ultimately have NO legal protection unless the state science standards are changed to allow for more critical-thinking approaches. (Dale Husband: Strawmen, slander, and bigoted nonsense.) (2) I still remember that one science teacher from Kansas City stating in 2000 that several of her colleagues told her they were scared to deviate from the official canned biology textbook presentation (lest they endanger their jobs.) Again, we need new science standards. (Dale Husband: Note that FL does not specify this person by name.) (3) The schoolkids in that video, bless their non-Darwinist hearts, are nowhere near ready to set foot on a secular college campus at their current level of knowledge/questions/whatever. Nor are they ready to visit evolution-dominant forums on the Internet. They may not even be ready to engage their own high-school peers from secular backgrounds. The Darwinists would simply eat them alive at this point, because their young zeal is not yet backed up with knowledge. The schoolkids need much more information, much more clarity, and more correctives. They need to better understand the basics of what evolution actually says and doesn't say, and to understand (as Behe points out) the difference betweeen data and interpretation. They need to understand the basics of what their own Bibles actually say and doesn't say WRT biological and human origins, and understand the basics of YEC, OEC and ID. (And also understand why TE is an outhouse mess.) (Dale Husband: More strawmen, slander, and bigoted nonsense.) (4) Does the science teacher in the video have enough classroom time to meet all the needs listed in (3)? NO, he doesn't. Not in a public school. Some critical-thinking, teach-the-controversy approaches can (and SHOULD!) be implemented, but honestly that's about all. (Dale Husband: We should teach REAL scientific controversies, not frauds being compared with real science and misrepresented as such!) So Christian clergy, teachers, and parents gotta take the time to reach those kids and fill in the blanks for them. Otherwise the demons of Darwinism will eventually do it for them, fangs a-drooling. That's part of what "The Future Of This Country", (the thread topic), hinges upon. ****** FL

Looking for something positive ... at least that last kid said "African American person."

Do you agree with that one boy who thinks that evolution is impossible because whites and African Americans have “different skin”?

(Darwin wrote in his book Descent Of Man) "At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilized races of man will almost certainly exterminate and replace throughout the world the savage races. At the same time the anthropomorphous [i.e., most human-looking] apes … will no doubt be exterminated. The break will then be rendered wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilized state, as we may hope, than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as at present between the negro or Australian and the gorilla." Get it? Ranking the human races, we find the Caucasian at top, and down at the bottom, dangling at the edge of humanity, “the negro or Australian” who is just an evolutionary hair’s-breadth away from the anthropomorphous gorilla. In pushing upwards to the über-Caucasian, evolution also exterminates all the “intermediate species,” so that natural selection will do away with the Negro, the aboriginal Australian, and the gorilla. Like it or not, Darwin’s eugenic and racial ideas spread from him, and infected both Europe and America. --Wiker, "Darwin and Hitler: In Their Own Words", 05-05-2008 http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=26346

If I had been there, I would have immediately pointed out that the Bible and Genesis teaches the complete EQUALITY of all humans of all races, while Charles Darwin clearly taught RACISM based on evolution and natural selection.

Benjamin Wiker is a moron. Darwin's statement, assuming it is accurate, is more a condemnation of "civilized" man's destructive nature towards his fellow man and towards closely related animals than an endorsement of racism. And sadly, that prediction has largely comes true, since most great ape species are endangered due to habitat distruction caused by man.

Got any other stupidities for us, FL?

Scott said: I'd also love to hear from Mr. Elzinga how he might help educate such students. It must be tricky to lead such students to answers they don't want to understand, or don't know that they can understand.

If I had been there, I would have immediately pointed out that the Bible and Genesis teaches the complete EQUALITY of all humans of all races, while Charles Darwin clearly taught RACISM based on evolution and natural selection.

IOW, you would have lied.

go figure, you do it all the time.

My first reaction upon seeing the video was, "So people really talk like that?!" I live in Texas, do NOT speak with a "Southern" accent, don't know many people who do, and thus assumed that such an accent was a sterotypical myth. British accents I know about from watching Doctor Who shows in childhood, but I was so used to "Southern" accents being associated with racism and ignorance that the video only reinforces that assumption.

assumed that such an accent was a sterotypical myth

Dale, you need to get out and do some traveling.

seriously.

Dale Husband said: My first reaction upon seeing the video was, "So people really talk like that?!" I live in Texas, do NOT speak with a "Southern" accent, don't know many people who do, and thus assumed that such an accent was a sterotypical myth. British accents I know about from watching Doctor Who shows in childhood, but I was so used to "Southern" accents being associated with racism and ignorance that the video only reinforces that assumption.

I think if the child is too stupid to have their beliefs challenged they shouldn't be in a science class.

Why bother having a public school system if they can't teach students anything?

Scott said: I have not heard nor seen Freshwater. I would be curious if Mr. Hoppe could compare and contrast the teacher in this video with Freshwater. This teacher at least seems sincere, if misguided.

Starblade said: I think if the child is too stupid to have their beliefs challenged they shouldn't be in a science class. Why bother having a public school system if they can't teach students anything?

I have even worse news for that last student. Since humans originated in Africa, African-Americans did not evolve from whites. Most probably, original humans were dark-skinned and white folk came later in response to environmental circumstances. (That's right Bubba, somewhere in your ancestry you'll find black people. Please video it when your Uncle Al Sharpton shows up for Thanksgiving dinner.) How can the teacher tell his students they're wrong. Well, he doesn't have to do it as brutally as he seems to think he has to. He can point out the difference gently, but I imagine, with a christian upbringing like his, kindness and gentleness might be unfamiliar concepts. And yes I know, evolution is just a theory. So is gravity. Want to go up to the fifth floor and run an experiment?

If everyone here reports www.b2sharing.com multiple times to the major spam reporting agencies like SpamCop, maybe we can shut this asshole down.

jobbin said: Spam, spam, and more spam.....

Mike Elzinga said: If everyone here reports www.b2sharing.com multiple times to the major spam reporting agencies like SpamCop, maybe we can shut this asshole down.

You can also report these assholes to the Federal Trade Commission at www.ftc.gov

The FTC works for the consumer to prevent fraudulent, deceptive, and unfair business practices in the marketplace and to provide information to help consumers spot, stop, and avoid them. To file a complaint or to get free information on consumer issues, visit ftc.gov or call toll-free, 1-877-FTC-HELP (1-877-382-4357); TTY: 1-866-653-4261. The FTC enters Internet, telemarketing, identity theft, and other fraud-related complaints into Consumer Sentinel, a secure, online database available to hundreds of civil and criminal law enforcement agencies in the U.S. and abroad.

Looks like b2bsharing may be in China. Here is what I got from tracing their domain.

Domain Name: B2BSHARING.COM

Registrar: BEIJING INNOVATIVE LINKAGE

TECHNOLOGY LTD. DBA DNS.COM.CN

Whois Server: whois.dns.com.cn

Referral URL: http://www.dns.com.cn

Name Server: NS1.DNSPOOD.NET

Name Server: NS2.DNSPOOD.NET

Status: ok

Updated Date: 27-apr-2010

Creation Date: 28-sep-2006

Expiration Date: 28-sep-2015

Ichthyic said: *sigh* this is modern Ohio? ...or did I just type an oxymoron.

We're all doomed! Doomed I tells ya

Seriously, what the hell is this bullshit?

I am sick and tired of this fairytale creationist shit being taught. This video is simply one more piece of evidence that people like this should just be put up against the wall.

Mike Elzinga said: Looks like b2bsharing may be in China.

Wow. I mean.. Wow.

I grew up outside of Dayton Ohio (Fairborn) in the mid 70's, I don't remember elementary school, or the people in the community being ignorant hill billies like these geniuses, is this REALLY Dayton ohio and not BFE Alabama or something? Weird.

Oh, and Dale? He's here because he can be, and because in the long run it profits him. That's all, and that's all he needs.

Of course the vast majority of people who see his garbage will hate him, but that's just fine by him. Maybe one spam in ten million will produce a sale, but that's plenty.

And the place is not Dayton, Ohio, but Dayton, Tennessee, which was used for this BBC doco because it was where the Scopes Monkey Trial of 1925 was held.

Seems like nothing changes in the South.

I would not be at all surprised if the students of Dayton, TN, 1996, are somewhat unfairly depicted here. Certainly, I’m willing to bet, at least a substantial minority of high school graduates from there do not deny evolution. The teacher, on the other hand, is a blatant spewer of creationist propaganda.

— harold

Hey FL,

Almost a year ago, you failed to present your evidence that Intelligent Design is scientifically appropriate for the high school classroom. You ignored questions regarding this subject (even after you said that you wouldn't) in order to focus on more important things (like the inerrancy of the Judeo-christian bible). You utterly failed to bring forth any evidence that would suggest that ID is science

SO, do you want to try again or will you ignore this post in favor of random ejaculations from a godless christian?

I have known students from churches that insist on a literal interpretations. They are bright, curious and intelligent. Some went on to university, and after courses in sciences like geology, were thrown into a tailspin. Some, in anger, rejected everything about God because when presented with the overwhelming evidence for an ancient earth, evolution of species, etc realized that they have been lied to their entire lives. On the other hand, students from mainstream churches that teach that the Bible is not to be taken literally, found that as they matured, their faith continued to strengthen. THAT is one of the tragedies of this effort by creationists to teach this crap in schools. It backfires terribly unless you cloister these students forever from the real world.

KL said: I have known students from churches that insist on a literal interpretations. They are bright, curious and intelligent. Some went on to university, and after courses in sciences like geology, were thrown into a tailspin. Some, in anger, rejected everything about God because when presented with the overwhelming evidence for an ancient earth, evolution of species, etc realized that they have been lied to their entire lives. On the other hand, students from mainstream churches that teach that the Bible is not to be taken literally, found that as they matured, their faith continued to strengthen. THAT is one of the tragedies of this effort by creationists to teach this crap in schools. It backfires terribly unless you cloister these students forever from the real world.

True story: Many years ago, I went out skulking around the Pacific on a submarine. Meanwhile, my sister, who was a year younger than I, got married and moved to Georgia from where she grew up in Michigan. I didn’t see her for a number of years, but after I returned home, she was visiting my parents and came with them to the airport to pick me up. We all greeted one another as she stood silently off to one side. Then she suddenly spoke up and said to me, “Mah, y’all sho tawk funneh!”

— Mike Elzinga

Interesting to note that Dayton TN has Butler University, home of Dr Todd Wood and the Creation Biology Study Group. Says enough right there.

Since this is from a 1995 documentary, I wonder where any of those students are today, both professionally and spiritually? Either they were permanently intellectually ruined for any professional science career, or if not, did they forgive their religious leaders for all the outlandish lying to them and somehow kept their religious faith?

What you see is the effects of religion, as taught by Baptists, on the future of the hiring pool of McDonald's and Burger King.

"I don't think God doesn't has to have evolution to make a world."

Well I don't think god has to have gravity to make a world, or plate tectonics, or magnetic fields, or photosynthesis. So I'm not going to teach any of that stuff either. What a joke.

This guy is no science teacher. He says he provides "equal time" to evolution. Really? Exactly what does he know about evolution? Is he even qualified to teach it? Does he know that "equal time" is illegal and unconstitutional in science classes in this country?

I would really like to know how the entire student population will avoid being racists if they all believe that blacks could not evolve from whites because our skin is different. I would really like to know if the teacher could explain the genetic basis, ancestral condition, and selective pressures that are responsible for the current distribution of human skin colors. I would really like to hear him explain why god needs other species, (apparently like blacks), to have different skin colors.

If you are unwilling or unable to confront the misconceptions that your students bring to the classroom, then you should get another job. If you believe that you cannot teach science without offending religious beliefs, then you should get another job. I am sure that this guy was eventually sued for breaking the law and that sanity has now been restored to the Dayton school system. After all, what god really doesn't need is people lying to kids about science.

Ichthyic said: *sigh* this is modern Ohio? ...or did I just type an oxymoron.

FL said:

Do you agree with that one boy who thinks that evolution is impossible because whites and African Americans have “different skin”?

Nope, I don't agree with that one student. But that would have been a great "teachable moment" for the creationist teacher. If I had been there, I would have immediately pointed out that the Bible and Genesis teaches the complete EQUALITY of all humans of all races, while Charles Darwin clearly taught RACISM based on evolution and natural selection.

Weee Errr Diffant Skinn LOL

Makes me grateful for one of my high school science teachers, who was also the leader of his local church, who told us that he had no problem accepting evolution and believing his religious beliefs. That was a life-changing statement for me.

I'm thinking the science teacher portrayed in the video had inadequate training in high school and college. He obviously didn't have enough background in evolution. I wonder if he was even required to take a course on evolution in college.

Taught Biology in Texas for over 30 years. Been there, Didn't do that. So what if kids believe in creationism, your job is to teach them science which means not only theories and laws but how those ideas were discovered and supported. So when kids brought up creationism I simply told them I would be happy to discuss any evidence they have for creation but it must be experimental evidence FOR not arguments against evolution. You'd be surprised how fast that simple requirement stops the creationist nonsense without ever telling the kids they are wrong. They realize they don't have any scientific evidence for their beliefs and stop trying to drag these unscientific ideas into class.
IF that teacher is giving equal time to creationism then he is lying. If you teach evidence and mechanism for both evolution and creationism there is no way you can give them equal time. Creationism: evidence None, mechanism: poof or God did it. Gee that doesn't take long to teach. Now let's get back to science. What worried me was the Campbell's biology text sitting there. That's the A.P. book of choice across the U.S. If he's teaching A.P. level those kids are f__k_d because the A.P. test requires not just knowledge of but understanding of evolutionary mechanism. Reminds me of a christian school in this area that refused to allow their A.P. English students to read all those worldly books on the reading list. The kids read instead Bennett's Book of Virtues. Guess what they all failed. If he's teaching A.P. my guess is he has a very low pass rate.

FL wrote:

"Nope, I don’t agree with that one student. But that would have been a great “teachable moment” for the creationist teacher."

Exactly. The teacher could have pointed out all of the real science that has been done on this topic. He could have just glossed over the fact that the bible teaches that dark skin was caused by god as a curse. But he obviously didn't.

He could have talked bout the fact that humans evolved in Africa and the ancestral skin color was very dark. He could have talked about UV exposure and skin cancer and vitamins being produced and degraded in the skin. He could have talked about the problems caused by rapid migrations and travel. He could have talked about the genetic basis of skin color and the fact that fair skinned and dark skinned people all have the same genes and the same alleles. He could have talked about population genetics and selection pressures and dietary supplements. He could have talked about skin cancer and screening programs and modern treatments.

He could have discussed all of those things, but he obviously didn't. If he had ever talked about real science instead of wasting class time on fairy tales, maybe his students wouldn't have had such egregious misconceptions in the first place. That is in fact his job. If he is unwilling or unable to do his job, he should quit and let someone else do it. Hopefully it would be someone more knowledgeable and more courageous.

wee said: Weee Errr Diffant Skinn LOL

nonsense said: Such a cute girl with such a stupid brain and horrendous accent. The ginger kid we can just do without.

I grew up outside of Dayton Ohio (Fairborn) in the mid 70’s, I don’t remember elementary school, or the people in the community being

Small world. I lived in Fairborn as well, mid-'60s. Near Huber Heights. And no, the attitudes (and accents) are clearly from Tenn.

It's a shame Dayton, TN hasn't changed much from the Scopes days.

This makes me want to cry. Stupidity & ignorance is what will destroy this country.

Red Necks for ya

heilerm said: This documentary was released in 1996 in Dayton, TN. Still shocking, but probably not up-to-date.

This school appears to be associated with a Baptist church. The web site claims that it is accredited by the state of Ohio. If things have not changed since the video was made there are bound to be law suites. These people really should have paid more attention to what happened in Dover.

Who is responsible for this clip? I smell loki. The bit at the end about skin color was so over the top that who would believe that this was a legitimate documentary? The kids all seemed too stupid to breath. It was such a display of abject ignorance that how many students would you have to interview to get the bottom of the barrel like that? Students this lost should not exist in the public schools in any state.

The teacher was like some hack actor mouthing his lines. If this is real it is beyond sad.

Stanton said:

wee said: Weee Errr Diffant Skinn LOL

I wonder why FL hasn't tried to explain why we should blame Charles Darwin because of how European and American slave owners have used "The Curse of Ham" as justification for slavery.

Interesting to note that Dayton TN has Butler University, home of Dr Todd Wood and the Creation Biology Study Group. Says enough right there.

— Bobsie

In all fairness to Todd Wood, he flatly declares on his blog that MET (modern evo theory) is robust science and tells his readers to stop saying that it's about to fall over. He simply believes that there's more to find out.

Among creationists, of course, in this he is EXTREMELY unusual.

I'm coming late to this conversation and haven't read everything, but it seems that some people are saying the teacher is just incompetent and can't control his class.

I would disagree with that. The problem I saw is that the teacher is also a creationist. I think his students are getting their cues from him. Or if he's not correcting them it's because he believes much of what they are saying. In that, he seems a perfectly competent teacher, he's just not a competent science teacher because he wants to teach creationism.

phantomreader42 said: ... to slaughter entire civilizations and rape their women.

Lynn Wilhelm said: I'm coming late to this conversation and haven't read everything, but it seems that some people are saying the teacher is just incompetent and can't control his class. I would disagree with that. The problem I saw is that the teacher is also a creationist. I think his students are getting their cues from him. Or if he's not correcting them it's because he believes much of what they are saying. In that, he seems a perfectly competent teacher, he's just not a competent science teacher because he wants to teach creationism.

Lynn Wilhelm said: I'm coming late to this conversation and haven't read everything, but it seems that some people are saying the teacher is just incompetent and can't control his class. I would disagree with that. The problem I saw is that the teacher is also a creationist. I think his students are getting their cues from him. Or if he's not correcting them it's because he believes much of what they are saying. In that, he seems a perfectly competent teacher, he's just not a competent science teacher because he wants to teach creationism.

Lynn Wilhelm said: I'm coming late to this conversation and haven't read everything, but it seems that some people are saying the teacher is just incompetent and can't control his class. I would disagree with that. The problem I saw is that the teacher is also a creationist. I think his students are getting their cues from him. Or if he's not correcting them it's because he believes much of what they are saying. In that, he seems a perfectly competent teacher, he's just not a competent science teacher because he wants to teach creationism.

Who is responsible for this clip? I smell loki.

— Ron Okimoto

phantomreader42 said:

Stanton said:

wee said: Weee Errr Diffant Skinn LOL

I wonder why FL hasn't tried to explain why we should blame Charles Darwin because of how European and American slave owners have used "The Curse of Ham" as justification for slavery.

I'm sure he'll get around to that once he's addressed the divine command to slaughter entire civilizations and rape their women. In other words, never.

Um, folks, Todd Wood is at Bryan College in Dayton, TN, not Butler University in Indiana.

Stanton said: Actually, FL did say that the people whom God told the Israelites to slaughter were evil, and that he would be glad to immediately obey such a command if he were given it.

Stanton said: Actually, FL did say that the people whom God told the Israelites to slaughter were evil, and that he would be glad to immediately obey such a command if he were given it.

FL said:

Do you agree with that one boy who thinks that evolution is impossible because whites and African Americans have “different skin”?

Nope, I don't agree with that one student. But that would have been a great "teachable moment" for the creationist teacher. If I had been there, I would have immediately pointed out that the Bible and Genesis teaches the complete EQUALITY of all humans of all races, while Charles Darwin clearly taught RACISM based on evolution and natural selection. In fact, I would also do a class handout--Benjamin Wiker's article from Human Events.

(Darwin wrote in his book Descent Of Man) "At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilized races of man will almost certainly exterminate and replace throughout the world the savage races. At the same time the anthropomorphous [i.e., most human-looking] apes … will no doubt be exterminated. The break will then be rendered wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilized state, as we may hope, than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as at present between the negro or Australian and the gorilla." Get it? Ranking the human races, we find the Caucasian at top, and down at the bottom, dangling at the edge of humanity, “the negro or Australian” who is just an evolutionary hair’s-breadth away from the anthropomorphous gorilla. In pushing upwards to the über-Caucasian, evolution also exterminates all the “intermediate species,” so that natural selection will do away with the Negro, the aboriginal Australian, and the gorilla. Like it or not, Darwin’s eugenic and racial ideas spread from him, and infected both Europe and America. --Wiker, "Darwin and Hitler: In Their Own Words", 05-05-2008 http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=26346

That's the information that I would have provided to that one student and to the entire class, Stanton. Wouldn't you have done the same? FL

DS said:
"We actually do not know if he is competent or not. All we can tell from this clip is that he believes that creationism should be given equal time with evolution, that he is unwilling to confront the misconceptions of his students and that his students seem to be abysmally ignorant of even the most basic concepts of biology and evolution as well as completely lacking in any logic or reasoning skills."

I think you're being too nice to this teacher. The entire content of your comment points toward incompetence. In particular, that his is unwilling to confront the misconceptions of this students, and that after being in his class his students are still abysmally ignorant and lacking in logic or reasoning skills.

Considering this was 1996, it would be interesting to see the kids now who became adults and what their beliefs are now. The internet is soo much stronger now its very possible that any infomation they could ever want would be at their finger tips if they choose to accept it.

Might be considered a horrible stereotype but I believe this is a typical church go-ers kid from any year in america.

Its like they dont accept it and they never seem to do it theirself.

Just as the culture influenced so many Creationists in their racism.

...and bigotry, and not just creationists, if Martin Luther had anything to say on the matter, which he did, voluminously.

I've often thought that the attacks on Darwin that involved the Darwin->Hitler meme are really projections of the Luther->Hitler FACT.

Ichthyic said: Just as the culture influenced so many Creationists in their racism. ...and bigotry, and not just creationists, if Martin Luther had anything to say on the matter, which he did, voluminously. I've often thought that the attacks on Darwin that involved the Darwin->Hitler meme are really projections of the Luther->Hitler FACT.

Alex H said: I thought it was merely our current standard of "We hate it, therefore HITLER!!!"

nonsense said: Such a cute girl with such a stupid brain and horrendous accent. The ginger kid we can just do without.

Frank J said:

Who is responsible for this clip? I smell loki.

— Ron Okimoto

It's possible, but I recall someone saying that you can't make this junk up. ;-)

Ron Okimoto said:

Frank J said:

Who is responsible for this clip? I smell loki.

— Ron Okimoto

It's possible, but I recall someone saying that you can't make this junk up. ;-)

If this clip is real who should believe it, and if it is loki why should a lot of people have taken it seriously? Same answer for both questions.

mmmm, basketball shoes...

I gots me a basketball jones!

Mike Elzinga said:

Ron Okimoto said:

Frank J said:

Who is responsible for this clip? I smell loki.

— Ron Okimoto

It's possible, but I recall someone saying that you can't make this junk up. ;-)

If this clip is real who should believe it, and if it is loki why should a lot of people have taken it seriously? Same answer for both questions.

I personally knew a teacher like this; and it is true, you just can’t make up the crap they generate and believe. It’s like dealing with someone who is in a twilight zone completely unconnected to reality. And they can cause a school enormous, expensive problems.

See, what wholesale is saying is that if those keeds in Dayton had Nikes, they could chew on that evolution cud fer awhaal.

:)

Alex H said:

Mike Elzinga said:

Ron Okimoto said:

Frank J said:

Who is responsible for this clip? I smell loki.

— Ron Okimoto

It's possible, but I recall someone saying that you can't make this junk up. ;-)

If this clip is real who should believe it, and if it is loki why should a lot of people have taken it seriously? Same answer for both questions.

I personally knew a teacher like this; and it is true, you just can’t make up the crap they generate and believe. It’s like dealing with someone who is in a twilight zone completely unconnected to reality. And they can cause a school enormous, expensive problems.

And beyond that, the students of this teacher are not learning what the real facts are, and are going to be horrifically unprepared if they wish to study biology, pathology, genetics, or geology when they reach college. They are also going to be less informed about science in general, and in a world where issues like cloning, genetically modified crops, global warming, and antibiotic resistant diseases become increasingly larger issues that they, as voters and as residents of Planet Earth, are going to have to deal with. And they won't be properly prepared.

These people are a bunch of Rubes, if they think critical thinking is hard than they can go to private school.

I personally knew a teacher like this; and it is true, you just can’t make up the crap they generate and believe.

— Mike Elzinga

Mike Elzinga said:

Ron Okimoto said:

Frank J said:

Who is responsible for this clip? I smell loki.

— Ron Okimoto

It's possible, but I recall someone saying that you can't make this junk up. ;-)

If this clip is real who should believe it, and if it is loki why should a lot of people have taken it seriously? Same answer for both questions.

I personally knew a teacher like this; and it is true, you just can’t make up the crap they generate and believe. It’s like dealing with someone who is in a twilight zone completely unconnected to reality. And they can cause a school enormous, expensive problems.

Frank J said:

I personally knew a teacher like this; and it is true, you just can’t make up the crap they generate and believe.

— Mike Elzinga

Until we can read minds we don't know what they believe. If I were a better speaker/writer I could probably make up this nonsense (I even thought up anti-evolution arguments that are original, or at least I haven't heard them yet). In fact just recently several people on one of these boards were fooled by a "creationist" video that turned out to be a parody. I'll go so far as to admit that I would even teach that nonsense, pretend to believe it, and fake cluelessness of evolution, if I honestly thought that the only way to save the world was to keep students believing in fairy tales. It's only my "gut feeling," plus the fact that the video was from before most people heard of ID, let alone Dover, that makes me think it is not a parody, and that the teacher really is that misinformed.

Such a cute girl with such a stupid brain and horrendous accent. The ginger kid we can just do without.

The 'Creation Resource Library' is a large collection of DVD, audio and written resources on the subject of creation and its associated topics. It exists to help us answer the many objections and questions which today's society levy against the Biblical creation account. Why a Creation Resource Library? To help answer such questions as: • Did God make everything in six literal days? • Could Noah’s Ark have held all the air-breathing creatures? • Noah’s Flood: Where did all the water come from and go to? • How do Dinosaurs fit in with the Biblical account? • How old is the earth? • If the universe is young, why can we see stars that are billions of light years away? The aims of the library: • To demonstrate the the Theory of Evolution is not in accordance with scientific fact. • To show that Evolutionary teaching causes a decline in morality and true Christianity. • To increase our faith in the reliability of the Bible, as the inerrant Word of God, by supplying scientific information which verifies the account of creation.

Ron Okimoto said:

Mike Elzinga said:

Ron Okimoto said:

Frank J said:

Who is responsible for this clip? I smell loki.

— Ron Okimoto

It's possible, but I recall someone saying that you can't make this junk up. ;-)

If this clip is real who should believe it, and if it is loki why should a lot of people have taken it seriously? Same answer for both questions.

I personally knew a teacher like this; and it is true, you just can’t make up the crap they generate and believe. It’s like dealing with someone who is in a twilight zone completely unconnected to reality. And they can cause a school enormous, expensive problems.

Frank J said:

I personally knew a teacher like this; and it is true, you just can’t make up the crap they generate and believe.

— Mike Elzinga

Until we can read minds we don't know what they believe. If I were a better speaker/writer I could probably make up this nonsense (I even thought up anti-evolution arguments that are original, or at least I haven't heard them yet). In fact just recently several people on one of these boards were fooled by a "creationist" video that turned out to be a parody. I'll go so far as to admit that I would even teach that nonsense, pretend to believe it, and fake cluelessness of evolution, if I honestly thought that the only way to save the world was to keep students believing in fairy tales. It's only my "gut feeling," plus the fact that the video was from before most people heard of ID, let alone Dover, that makes me think it is not a parody, and that the teacher really is that misinformed.

When I say that you can't make this junk up. I mean that if you were writing fiction and you wrote this kind of nonsense and made your characters act this way your editor would likely make you rewrite to make the characters more believable. These type of people do actually exist. That is the sad part. Just take the last dig about skin color. What editor would let something like that stand. You'd alienate your readers that want to experience fiction that might reflect reality. Anyone can make up junk as stupid as this, but who should take them seriously? That is the saddest part about the intelligent design scam. The ID perps not only ran the bait and switch on the creationist rubes that supported their scam, but they depend on the rubes being stupid and dishonest enough to bend over and take the switch scam from the guys that just lied to them about ID. The wonder is how many ID supporters that they get to bend into pretzels to take the switch scam that doesn't even mention that ID ever existed. You really can't make this junk up and be taken seriously. Just take the first public bait and switch that the ID perps ran (Ohio in 2003, years before they lost in Dover). You are a science reporter and you come back with a story about a state board of education that claimed to want to teach the science of intelligent design. Some of them are pretty vocal in public about it. The ID perps come in and lie to the board that ID is science and can be taught in the public schools. The scientists set the record straight and the ID perps back off and run the bait and switch scam on the board. It isn't that the Ohio rubes didn't know that they were lied to. Some of them suggested that they change the definition of science for Ohio students to make the ID perp claims less of a lie. Really, what would an editor do with a claim that some state education board wanted to change the definition of science because they didn't like the existing definition for religious reasons and wanted to support a dishonest political scam? Not only that, but instead of running the ID perps out of the state on a rail, the board bends over and takes the switch scam. They continue to support the switch scam that they find out doesn't even mention that ID ever existed, and that they have to rewrite to remove any mention of the ID perps because their "science" material proves too bogus to include in the lesson plan. This drags on for a couple of years until the ID perps lose in court in another state and ID "movement" ringleaders like Philip Johnson finally admit that there never was any intelligent design science to teach to anyone. Who would believe that, if it didn't actually happen? Why are there still ID perp supporters when every single rube school board or legislator that claimed to want to teach the science of intelligent design since Ohio has had the bait and switch run on them and never got any ID science to teach? Why should anyone bend over and take the switch scam from the liars? Would this be acceptable fiction? Not likely, but it is the current sad reality.

taylor said: ROFL. "How can an african american person evolve from awhite person... we are different skin?" HOW ABOUT THIS QUESTION: How can humans evolve from a fish, or even better, a single cell organism.... THERE IS A HIGHER POWER people.

Well, look on the bright side.....

No shortage of long-term McDonald's employees in this classroom.

It's just a pity that there is probably a lot of unrealised potential going to waste for the lack of teaching of critical thinking and logical analysis skills. I'm guessing that's why Caltech, Scripps, Harvard, etc, aren't in Tennessee.

Unfortunately what we've seen in the video can't be tossed aside as the mewings of some rubes in the Midwest or the South. There have been recent instances where creationism has reared its disreputable shadow in the suburbs of Harford, CT, and, even in suburban Southern New Jersey, less than a thirty minute drive from New York City.

Ichthyic said: *sigh* this is modern Ohio? ...or did I just type an oxymoron.

mplavcan said:

Ron Okimoto said:

Mike Elzinga said:

Ron Okimoto said:

Frank J said:

Who is responsible for this clip? I smell loki.

— Ron Okimoto

It's possible, but I recall someone saying that you can't make this junk up. ;-)

If this clip is real who should believe it, and if it is loki why should a lot of people have taken it seriously? Same answer for both questions.

I personally knew a teacher like this; and it is true, you just can’t make up the crap they generate and believe. It’s like dealing with someone who is in a twilight zone completely unconnected to reality. And they can cause a school enormous, expensive problems.

Frank J said:

I personally knew a teacher like this; and it is true, you just can’t make up the crap they generate and believe.

— Mike Elzinga

Until we can read minds we don't know what they believe. If I were a better speaker/writer I could probably make up this nonsense (I even thought up anti-evolution arguments that are original, or at least I haven't heard them yet). In fact just recently several people on one of these boards were fooled by a "creationist" video that turned out to be a parody. I'll go so far as to admit that I would even teach that nonsense, pretend to believe it, and fake cluelessness of evolution, if I honestly thought that the only way to save the world was to keep students believing in fairy tales. It's only my "gut feeling," plus the fact that the video was from before most people heard of ID, let alone Dover, that makes me think it is not a parody, and that the teacher really is that misinformed.

When I say that you can't make this junk up. I mean that if you were writing fiction and you wrote this kind of nonsense and made your characters act this way your editor would likely make you rewrite to make the characters more believable. These type of people do actually exist. That is the sad part. Just take the last dig about skin color. What editor would let something like that stand. You'd alienate your readers that want to experience fiction that might reflect reality. Anyone can make up junk as stupid as this, but who should take them seriously? That is the saddest part about the intelligent design scam. The ID perps not only ran the bait and switch on the creationist rubes that supported their scam, but they depend on the rubes being stupid and dishonest enough to bend over and take the switch scam from the guys that just lied to them about ID. The wonder is how many ID supporters that they get to bend into pretzels to take the switch scam that doesn't even mention that ID ever existed. You really can't make this junk up and be taken seriously. Just take the first public bait and switch that the ID perps ran (Ohio in 2003, years before they lost in Dover). You are a science reporter and you come back with a story about a state board of education that claimed to want to teach the science of intelligent design. Some of them are pretty vocal in public about it. The ID perps come in and lie to the board that ID is science and can be taught in the public schools. The scientists set the record straight and the ID perps back off and run the bait and switch scam on the board. It isn't that the Ohio rubes didn't know that they were lied to. Some of them suggested that they change the definition of science for Ohio students to make the ID perp claims less of a lie. Really, what would an editor do with a claim that some state education board wanted to change the definition of science because they didn't like the existing definition for religious reasons and wanted to support a dishonest political scam? Not only that, but instead of running the ID perps out of the state on a rail, the board bends over and takes the switch scam. They continue to support the switch scam that they find out doesn't even mention that ID ever existed, and that they have to rewrite to remove any mention of the ID perps because their "science" material proves too bogus to include in the lesson plan. This drags on for a couple of years until the ID perps lose in court in another state and ID "movement" ringleaders like Philip Johnson finally admit that there never was any intelligent design science to teach to anyone. Who would believe that, if it didn't actually happen? Why are there still ID perp supporters when every single rube school board or legislator that claimed to want to teach the science of intelligent design since Ohio has had the bait and switch run on them and never got any ID science to teach? Why should anyone bend over and take the switch scam from the liars? Would this be acceptable fiction? Not likely, but it is the current sad reality.

Why? Simple -- these people are evangelists and they are telling people what they want to hear. This is a matter of belief. People drink up propaganda because it bolsters their belief. It gives them a sense that their belief is rational because others believe it too. The validity of the belief is confirmed by the participation of others. The phenomenon is not limited to religion by any means. Just look at the political arena here in the US (turn on Fox News, for example) and see how much lying and distorting goes on, and how people swallow it hook line and sinker because it supports their belief. You have to ask two questions here -- why do people believe this dreck?, and why to the creationists so persistently propagate it? The answer is that they are all seeking mutual support to re-enforce their belief system in the face of a challenge to the belief system. People WANT the ID perps. The need them. They will always need them.

I did a bit of digging:

There is no high school in Dayton TN. From what I can find Dayton TN is served by Rhea County High School District (no web page). The RCHS is located up the road from Dayton in Evensville TN. They have no website.

Joe Wilkey still teaches 'science' there.

It ain't all bad. Amanda Osteen from Hillsboro High School in Nashville TN opposes the teaching of creationism in her school. The clip in the article is part of a five part set of Youtube videos. It was a special program by the BBC called, "Science Friction: Creation".

In part 3/5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCvHjMxLFlg&feature=related
(about 4:55 in) is the part worth seeing. She is also a lot better speaker, IMO, than the teacher from Evensville.

mplavcan said: Why? Simple -- these people are evangelists and they are telling people what they want to hear. This is a matter of belief. People drink up propaganda because it bolsters their belief. It gives them a sense that their belief is rational because others believe it too. The validity of the belief is confirmed by the participation of others. The phenomenon is not limited to religion by any means. Just look at the political arena here in the US (turn on Fox News, for example) and see how much lying and distorting goes on, and how people swallow it hook line and sinker because it supports their belief. You have to ask two questions here -- why do people believe this dreck?, and why to the creationists so persistently propagate it? The answer is that they are all seeking mutual support to re-enforce their belief system in the face of a challenge to the belief system. People WANT the ID perps. The need them. They will always need them.

John Kwok said: Unfortunately what we've seen in the video can't be tossed aside as the mewings of some rubes in the Midwest or the South. There have been recent instances where creationism has reared its disreputable shadow in the suburbs of Harford, CT, and, even in suburban Southern New Jersey, less than a thirty minute drive from New York City.

Dale Husband said: Popularity has nothing to do with logical validity. If 99% of people committed suicide by age 60, would that justify you committing suicide before you turn 61?

Ron Okimoto said:

mplavcan said: Why? Simple -- these people are evangelists and they are telling people what they want to hear. This is a matter of belief. People drink up propaganda because it bolsters their belief. It gives them a sense that their belief is rational because others believe it too. The validity of the belief is confirmed by the participation of others. The phenomenon is not limited to religion by any means. Just look at the political arena here in the US (turn on Fox News, for example) and see how much lying and distorting goes on, and how people swallow it hook line and sinker because it supports their belief. You have to ask two questions here -- why do people believe this dreck?, and why to the creationists so persistently propagate it? The answer is that they are all seeking mutual support to re-enforce their belief system in the face of a challenge to the belief system. People WANT the ID perps. The need them. They will always need them.

It isn't that simple in this case. The rubes are being told that their version of reality is so bogus that it can't even be mentioned in a stand up argument, and what they have to do is settle for a stupid obfuscation scam that can't mention creationism, nor intelligent design. This isn't reinforcing anything. It is just sad. The rubes that believed the ID scam have to realize that they were lied to, but instead of taking a breath and trying to figure out if there is anything to salvage from the lies and bogus propaganda they bend over and take a bogus obfuscation scam from the guys that they know lied to them about intelligent design. Who cares if birds might not be the major selective agent that shifted the allele frequencies of a population of moths. No one denies that natural selection is a fact of nature. The scam artists don't even deny that birds are a likely selective agent. All they are making noise about is that we might not know all the selective agents. Why would an ID rube buy into a switch scam like that when they know what they wanted to teach? The plain and simple fact is that the rubes were told that they had something that could compete against the science and all they got was zip and told to bend over and take a stupid obfuscation scam that is designed to do nothing but blow smoke over the issues. That isn't reinforcing mob opinion. That is just appealing to the lowest common denominator. It just demonstrates that there was no honest intent to begin with.

mplavcan said: It IS that simple. The rubes have been told that truth has been persecuted and driven from society by the forces of evil. It's Jesus vs Satan on the scoreboard. Good vs Evil. Christians vs Atheists. Go team! To fight evil, they must use every tool at hand to battle the lies of Satan and his poor atheist tools. Christians are persecuted and God is driven from schools. ID is truth packaged in a way to circumvent the evils of the atheist anti-God evolutionists who have taken over the government and twisted its laws to serve their anti--Christian purpose. And of course, ID is true. Why, it is so simple and obvious that if the atheist-evolutionists reject it, it merely shows their determination to fight God and persecute Christians. The rubes don't realize they were lied to -- most of them see it as a defeat of God by the evil forces of secularism. The whole point here is that the belief in creationism is just that -- a belief. It is not based on evidence, or logic. It is based on faith. Faith transcends logic and data. Just read the faith statement that AiG has its "scientists" sign when the join the organization. It is a study in self-professed denial-ism. People want people to tell them that their belief is true. Nothing more. From an outsider's point of view, it is shocking that scam artists like the DI can get with with their antics and maintain credibility. But they do. They have a willing audience clamoring for the product.

I am sorry, I have not had time to review all the comments. This might have been addressed, I hope it has.

So, what can be done about this? This is absurd. Joe Wilkie is the department head of science. This seems to be illegal, correct? No one is telling Mr.Wilkie to tell his students their beliefs are those of trailer park trash like he implies. Based solely on this brief video they obviously know very little about evolution - I would assume this is because of their teacher.

Is there anything that can be done to see this man is either fired or immediately begins to teach science in science class?

Thanks,
-Tony
(feel free to email)

David Utidjian said: I did a bit of digging: There is no high school in Dayton TN. From what I can find Dayton TN is served by Rhea County High School District (no web page). The RCHS is located up the road from Dayton in Evensville TN. They have no website. Joe Wilkey still teaches 'science' there. It ain't all bad. Amanda Osteen from Hillsboro High School in Nashville TN opposes the teaching of creationism in her school. The clip in the article is part of a five part set of Youtube videos. It was a special program by the BBC called, "Science Friction: Creation". In part 3/5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCvHjMxLFlg&feature=related (about 4:55 in) is the part worth seeing. She is also a lot better speaker, IMO, than the teacher from Evensville.

Ron Okimoto said: No, it is not that simple. That may be what the rubes are told in the backrooms and maybe even in the churches, but that isn't the public version of the current political scam. Anyone with any reasoning power at all can look at the public version and compare it to what they may be told in private and what conclusions can they possibly draw? The claim was that there was some real science. That was a lie. The switch scam is just a bogus obfuscation scam that doesn't mention amything that they really want to teach. Even if they are being told some conspiracy theory it is simply unbelieveable. Anyone that was fooled by the ID scam and that has had the bait and switch run on them know who the liars really are. They have to be able to take that fact and accept that their side is the one that requires the desception and bogus argument. They essentially have to lie to themselves to keep from doing that. This isn't reinforcement of their religious foundations. It is the antithesis of what they claim to be doing and the guys that have had to bend over and take the switch scam from the dishonest creationist ID perps understand that, that is what they are doing. They likely think that it is the only thing left to do. As pathetic as that sounds that is all they have. The creationist religious beliefs are not being reinforced by the current bogus political scams Fear is probably the major factor keeping the political scam going. These guys are literally watching their belief system eat itself from the inside out and they don't know how to stop it. Self desception is about all they have left. Just imagine what it is like when your own side blindsides you and runs a bait and switch scam on you. The ID perps didn't run the bait and switch on the science side. They have run the bait and switch on every single rube creationist school board and legislator that fell for the ID claptrap. Not only that, but they ran the bait and switch for years before they lost in court, so what excuse do they have? They obviously knew how bogus their junk was for a long time. You don't see anyone denying that the bait and switch was run because it is obvious that the ID perps were selling something called the science of intelligent design, but all anyone ever got was some stupid obfuscation scam that doesn't even mention that ID ever existed. Only the ignorant and the mentally incompetent do not understand that. So how is that appealing to the mob belief? It just is not as simple as you claim. There is likely something worse involved. Some part of the negative side of human nature is manifesting itself. I don't know what it is. Lauri Lebo in her book Devil in Dover thought that it was fear that drove her father to reject the reality that he was living as he watched the ID scam exposed. It wasn't just fear for himself, but for everyone that he cared for. That definitely is not something that you would want to base your religious beliefs on. The ID perp's political movement manipulators think that they can ride that tiger. Beats me where it is going to lead them.

I am not directing this comment at any particular individual, but some of the things I have read have truly disgusted me. Many who have commented claim to be intelligent while mocking those who are no doubt much younger and inexperienced in this video. You comment of ignorance, intolerance, stupidity, and bigotry while displaying many of these same characteristics through your prejudiced and self-righteous comments. If you disagree with a belief, then so be it. That is perfectly fine and one of the many reasons why the United States is a great place to live (not that it's perfect by any means). When you choose to mock, scoff at, or look down your nose at others simply because you believe something different, or because they are uninformed of one matter or another, then you spit upon the very intelligence, understanding, and equality that many of you have so preached about. It is sad when those who fancy themselves more intelligent than others, display aspects that are characteristic of some of the lowliest, most ignorant, biased, and racist people. Once again, I direct this comment at no particular individual, but upon reading many of these comments, I was saddened and disgusted. Feel free to write whatever condescending, hateful, or crude replies to this you so choose, whether it be out of spite or for some other reason. I just felt I needed to say this, whether it will be of any great importance in the grand scheme of things or not.

Disgusted said: I am not directing this comment at any particular individual, but some of the things I have read have truly disgusted me. Many who have commented claim to be intelligent while mocking those who are no doubt much younger and inexperienced in this video. You comment of ignorance, intolerance, stupidity, and bigotry while displaying many of these same characteristics through your prejudiced and self-righteous comments. If you disagree with a belief, then so be it. That is perfectly fine and one of the many reasons why the United States is a great place to live (not that it's perfect by any means). When you choose to mock, scoff at, or look down your nose at others simply because you believe something different, or because they are uninformed of one matter or another, then you spit upon the very intelligence, understanding, and equality that many of you have so preached about. It is sad when those who fancy themselves more intelligent than others, display aspects that are characteristic of some of the lowliest, most ignorant, biased, and racist people. Once again, I direct this comment at no particular individual, but upon reading many of these comments, I was saddened and disgusted. Feel free to write whatever condescending, hateful, or crude replies to this you so choose, whether it be out of spite or for some other reason. I just felt I needed to say this, whether it will be of any great importance in the grand scheme of things or not.

Ichthyic said: *sigh* this is modern Ohio? ...or did I just type an oxymoron.

Certainly there is a lot of room for discussion and disagreement on the motives of these folks, but I think that the DI and ID people truly and honestly believe that they are defending Truth ™, and that the shenanigans that they do are merely tactics pursued in the defense of God’s Truth ™. They are delusional, especially to themselves. But outside of the personal, internal mental circus of the DI creatures, the message that they promulgate works because they are feeding the line that the “rubes” want to hear. Simple as that.

David Utidjian said:

John Kwok said: Unfortunately what we've seen in the video can't be tossed aside as the mewings of some rubes in the Midwest or the South. There have been recent instances where creationism has reared its disreputable shadow in the suburbs of Harford, CT, and, even in suburban Southern New Jersey, less than a thirty minute drive from New York City.

John, FYI: If you mean the Matthew LaClair fighting his history teacher in Kearny NJ... that is hardly South Jersey and more like 15 minutes from mid-town (traffic willing.) Then there is the Creation Study Group of New Jersey in Lincoln Park http://www.csgnj.org/ Again, that is North Jersey. Matthew LaClair won a $5,000 scholarship from the ACLU Youth Scholar program in 2008. http://www.aclu.org/organization-news-and-highlights/2008-youth-scholar-matthew-laclair-kearny-high-school-kearny-nj I think Amanda Osteen is also worthy of such a scholarship... but she has probably long since graduated college.

John Kwok said: I think I am if that history teacher is the one who organized a class "field trip" to Ken Ham's cynical, quite reprehensible, joke of a museum, the so-called "Creation Museum":

David Utidjian said:

John Kwok said: Unfortunately what we've seen in the video can't be tossed aside as the mewings of some rubes in the Midwest or the South. There have been recent instances where creationism has reared its disreputable shadow in the suburbs of Harford, CT, and, even in suburban Southern New Jersey, less than a thirty minute drive from New York City.

John, FYI: If you mean the Matthew LaClair fighting his history teacher in Kearny NJ... that is hardly South Jersey and more like 15 minutes from mid-town (traffic willing.) Then there is the Creation Study Group of New Jersey in Lincoln Park http://www.csgnj.org/ Again, that is North Jersey. Matthew LaClair won a $5,000 scholarship from the ACLU Youth Scholar program in 2008. http://www.aclu.org/organization-news-and-highlights/2008-youth-scholar-matthew-laclair-kearny-high-school-kearny-nj I think Amanda Osteen is also worthy of such a scholarship... but she has probably long since graduated college.

I don't head into NJ much, so pardon me for thinking Kearny is more South Jersey than it is.

If 99% of people committed suicide by age 60, would that justify you committing suicide before you turn 61?

in and of itself, no.

it sure would make me think to investigate why though, and then maybe find, if not a rational justification, whatever really was behind it.

strangely, it was the ad-populum argument theists so often present as "evidence" that made me start investigating what lies behind it.

...and discover nothing but what one would expect to evolve given certain cultures and certain observations.

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/322/5898/58

http://www.psych.ubc.ca/~henrich/Published.html

so, while seeing 99% of people doing something does not automatically justify it, it DOES tend to make one want to investigate it more thoroughly.

Dayton, Tennessee. Not Dayton, Ohio.
Ohio is not in the Bible Belt, go learn something before you mock a state.

After about a hundred of these, am I allowed to officially ignore them at this point, or am I required, yet again, to point out why I had Ohio on my mind?

*hint: John Freshwater, among other history the defenders of Ohio seem unaware of.

harold said: The very last student to speak in the video honestly expresses something that a thousand agitated trolls are obsessively thinking, but won't express.

John Kwok said: I think I am if that history teacher is the one who organized a class "field trip" to Ken Ham's cynical, quite reprehensible, joke of a museum, the so-called "Creation Museum":

David Utidjian said:

John Kwok said: Unfortunately what we've seen in the video can't be tossed aside as the mewings of some rubes in the Midwest or the South. There have been recent instances where creationism has reared its disreputable shadow in the suburbs of Harford, CT, and, even in suburban Southern New Jersey, less than a thirty minute drive from New York City.

John, FYI: If you mean the Matthew LaClair fighting his history teacher in Kearny NJ... that is hardly South Jersey and more like 15 minutes from mid-town (traffic willing.) Then there is the Creation Study Group of New Jersey in Lincoln Park http://www.csgnj.org/ Again, that is North Jersey. Matthew LaClair won a $5,000 scholarship from the ACLU Youth Scholar program in 2008. http://www.aclu.org/organization-news-and-highlights/2008-youth-scholar-matthew-laclair-kearny-high-school-kearny-nj I think Amanda Osteen is also worthy of such a scholarship... but she has probably long since graduated college.

I don't head into NJ much, so pardon me for thinking Kearny is more South Jersey than it is.

Casuals said:

Disgusted said: I am not directing this comment at any particular individual, but some of the things I have read have truly disgusted me. Many who have commented claim to be intelligent while mocking those who are no doubt much younger and inexperienced in this video. You comment of ignorance, intolerance, stupidity, and bigotry while displaying many of these same characteristics through your prejudiced and self-righteous comments. If you disagree with a belief, then so be it. That is perfectly fine and one of the many reasons why the United States is a great place to live (not that it's perfect by any means). When you choose to mock, scoff at, or look down your nose at others simply because you believe something different, or because they are uninformed of one matter or another, then you spit upon the very intelligence, understanding, and equality that many of you have so preached about. It is sad when those who fancy themselves more intelligent than others, display aspects that are characteristic of some of the lowliest, most ignorant, biased, and racist people. Once again, I direct this comment at no particular individual, but upon reading many of these comments, I was saddened and disgusted. Feel free to write whatever condescending, hateful, or crude replies to this you so choose, whether it be out of spite or for some other reason. I just felt I needed to say this, whether it will be of any great importance in the grand scheme of things or not.

I have not commented on the thread, and have not mocked anyone of the children, so I feel I have an adequate stance to ask you this question, Why do you not want to identify any individual? If you take issue with the words of any particular one of them, why won't you name them, challenge them, and debate them, instead of lumping everything into "you", and trying to get them to "self-identify" and hence you might retort with "I didn't say it was you, you are projecting?" Yes, some words spoken are too harsh and maybe unjustified, but if you have issue with it, spell it out, point to that person, argue with him, why won't you do that? Are you afraid of argument? Why do you express such strong opinions as "disgusted you", yet try so hard to "won't identify any individual". If you think anyone's words are unwarranted, challenge him, why hide?

TM said: ...and lost the ability to dance and play bass, as well as their affinity for fried chicken and grape Koolaid.

He is correct, in that you cannot have a Caucasoid descend from a Negroid.

That's the sad part about Biblical Literalism, a belief system abandoned by thinking Christians a long time ago. It is remarkably fragile. These kids are in for a rough ride when they become adults. Is it any wonder that so many of these people would rather deny reality than go through such a hurtful epiphany?

harold said: The accents STRONGLY indicate Tennessee. Some parts of Ohio are near Kentucky, but to hear middle class looking people of that speaking with such strong southern accents, you really have to be in the South, and probably in a very small town. For full disclosure I am from a low income rural background and have many relatives who speak with a strong regional accent. I am making a statement of fact, not disparaging people. For fairness, we see exactly three students speaking, one of whom is apparently expressing naive racism. The student depicted wearing a cross could easily be Catholic. The only villain here is the teacher, who will hopefully be fired because of this. It is not illegal for students to ignorant, nor even for students to be racist. What is illegal is for a teacher to violate the constitution by favoring one particular religious view.

dogmeat said: Effectively all positions are equal, regardless of evidence, and should be treated as equally valid.

mary said: If the student were Catholic they would be wearing a crucifix. Catholic schools teach evolution in biology class.

Dave said: What you see is the effects of religion, as taught by Baptists, on the future of the hiring pool of McDonald's and Burger King.