Help TalkOrigins Bid for "Expelled"

i don't know anything about how films get bought etc.
Yet anything to bring more publicity to this little film is a good thing.
so anyone buying it and seeking out its creation can only add to its already notable success.
Still it shouldn't be movies but it should be the educational system that teaches about origin issues from all sides.

30 dollars donated. Let's hope the sleazeballs haven't already destroyed the evidence.

Definitely, Byers. In ten years time, this little film will be right up there with "Plan 9 from Outer Space" or "Attack of the Killer Tomatoes". People will be making sound tracks up for it, splicing in extra footage, looping it, doing raps to it. It'll be a cult classic!

Donated twenty bucks. I had thought of entering a very low bid for it myself, but this makes more sense.

Donated a few bucks.
Uh, Byers. . . ..the film's "notable success" contributed to Premis Media's bankruptcy. Do you read? I mean, do you read for comprehension? Just wondering.
Good luck to the TalkOrigins Archive Foundation on this great effort!

Byers of course is assuming that "any publicity is good publicity" for his side. This is an exception. A cut of Expelled with the science interviews restored to their actual context would be a good thing--a good thing for the truth.

dpr

I'm trying to spread the word in a couple of related forums.

The donation button seems to not be working.

Thx dude! I'll give a little.

OK, you got my donation!

Byers, if Panda's Thumb having bought Expelled would be a GOOD thing, because it would draw more attention to the film, then YOU will be helping to bring about that GOOD thing, right?

The button works, so you can start with your donation, then encourage other YECs to do likewise at your church, on the internet, etc. Surely that will help get your "origins" story into US schools.

Robert Byers said: Still it shouldn't be movies but it should be the educational system that teaches about origin issues from all sides.

Just to be clear here, our donations will be returned or not taken if the bid loses, right?

Also, if the bid wins, I would like to suggest that a version of the film be made with subtitles or pop ups that explain the fallacies and lies in real time.

revtim said: Just to be clear here, our donations will be returned or not taken if the bid loses, right?

(4) As a practical matter, the Foundation will be unable to return any donations made to the donors, even if the Foundation is unsuccessful in bidding for Expelled, or the Foundation is successful and the amount donated is greater than the bid. We are therefore simply asking potential donors to make contributions (which are tax-deductible in the United States) to the TalkOrigins Foundation. Although the Foundation would like to use those funds towards the purchase of Expelled, given the constraints facing the Foundation, THE FOUNDATION CANNOT MAKE ANY GUARANTEE OR PROMISE CONCERNING THE EXPENDITURE OF THE DONATED FUNDS. Funds not used to acquire Expelled will be used for other purposes consistent with the Foundation's non-profit purposes. Due to the time constraints, the Foundation can only attempt to bid with the funds it has on hand and those donated to its Paypal account as of Monday, June 27, 2011.

Thanks guys, don't know how I missed that!

jinxmchue said: "Also, if the bid wins, I would like to suggest that a version of the film be made with subtitles or pop ups that explain the fallacies and lies in real time." And you could show it on VH1!

revtim said: Yeah, and we can cut to b-list comedians making fun of it! Could be awesome...

In with a few bucks.

It would be useful if Talkorigins Foundation could form a consortium with other groups in the Reality Based Communities.

For example, NSCE, and the various free thought groups, FFRF and so on.

The more the merrier.

I would think the so called moderate, or liberal xian groups would find this a worthy cause as well. We keep hearing that they exist, so where are they?

And of course, our friends the Accomodationists. Calling Mooney et al., where are you?

Since it is an online auction, is there a place where people can watch the bidding in real time. Should be, that is the whole point of online auctions.

It would be useful for PT and so on to keep people updated. Adds a little interest to have an ongoing contest with real money at stake.

In for $50. If the TAA doen't win, at least the money will go to continuing one of the best resources in the fight against the dumbing down of America and the world.

Does anyone have a clue what this film is expected to cost? It's a loser, so it can't have much market value. It would be amazing if sold for very much, unless some creationist kept bidding to keep it out of "Darwinist" hands.

In for 100USD. I know, less than I spend on potato chips each year.

SensuousCurmudgeon said: Does anyone have a clue what this film is expected to cost? It's a loser, so it can't have much market value. It would be amazing if sold for very much, unless some creationist kept bidding to keep it out of "Darwinist" hands.

raven said: Since it is an online auction, is there a place where people can watch the bidding in real time. Should be, that is the whole point of online auctions.

I dated $50, good luck guys!

I refer to talk.origins enough that even if the bid loses I'm happy to support it.

I'm also in for $50. I was going to send coffee to John Wilkins. He will have to keep drinking bilge water.

In for $25. Where the money winds up, I know it will be put to good use.

I would think the so called moderate, or liberal xian groups would find this a worthy cause as well. We keep hearing that they exist, so where are they?

Instead of requesting non-refundable contributions for something you may not get, you should instead set up a KickStarter project, set an appropriate goal based on an analysis of the value of the film and the expected bids of other potential/expected bidders, and then make your bid accordingly. That will give people a choice to donate unconditionally (using your existing process) or to pledge an amount that will be contributed if you win. If you don't win, then the people who contribute via the kickstarter project won't lose their money.

Asking for donations of an unspecified amount, without indicating how much has been donated so far, and without also clearly specifying what the funds will be used for in the event of a loss, is asking too much from some people, myself included.

I, a moderate, am here but I’ve been unemployed over a year.

Would purchase of this film include purchase of the copyright and all other rights attached to it? I.e., could the new owners modify it, remake it, use footage any way they wanted? Or would the purchaser just have the physical prints, rights to distribute, etc?

Asking for donations of an unspecified amount, without indicating how much has been donated so far, and without also clearly specifying what the funds will be used for in the event of a loss, is asking too much from some people, myself included.

Yes, the new owners will own the rights to the file, they can modify it, release it under creative commons, etc. There is an existing distribution deal that may complicate things.

It's an auction. You don't want to let other bidders know how much money you have to spend.

This is all happening at the last moment, and thus it is difficult to set up another means of funding the bids.

Think about it this way. The Foundation just spent several thousand dollars buying the server this site is running on. If you like our site, donate to TOAF to replenish the money it spent on PT.

Robert Byers said: i don't know anything about how films get bought etc.

Robert Byers said: Yet anything to bring more publicity to this little film is a good thing.

Robert Byers said: so anyone buying it and seeking out its creation can only add to its already notable success.

Robert Byers said: Still it shouldn't be movies but it should be the educational system that teaches about origin issues from all sides.

calilasseia said: You also don't know anything about real science.

Call me depressed...

Since the movie grossed 7.7 million USD at a cost of about 3.5 million - I am pessimistic about this venture. But I still donated.

I can't find any data about Premise Media Holdings concerning its bankruptcy sheets, but I have a gut feeling that the reserve bid is in the $800,000 range (assuming 10 cents on the dollar the creditors wish to receive). IANA CPA.

calilasseia said:

Robert Byers said: i don't know anything about how films get bought etc.

You also don't know anything about real science. The evidence for this consisting of four years' worth of your posts on rationalist forums, where you erect rectally extracted blind assertion after rectally extracted blind assertion, several of said assertions being demonstrably and manifestly wrong, and several others being outright creationist lies. Oh, do the good folks at Panda's Thumb know about the hilarity ensuing from your outing at the Richard Dawkins Forums? Where you demonstrated not only that creationism consists of made up shit, but that all too frequently, creationists like yourself cannot make up their minds from one day to the next which made up shit to believe in? Shall I bring those posts here, Byers, where you demonstrated that you couldn't make up your mind from one day to the next, whether or not there were dinosaurs aboard Cap'n Noah's fantasy floating petting zoo? And that as a direct corollary, anything you have to say on the matter is worth even less than the material I flush down my toilet regularly?

Robert Byers said: Yet anything to bring more publicity to this little film is a good thing.

For once I am in complete agreement with you, Byers, but NOT for the reasons you think. MY reasons for wanting this execrable propaganda screed to be subject to the critical spotlight, is so that creationist lies can be exposed even more robustly than before. You know, lies such as those you've been posting on four other rationalist forums over the past four years?

Robert Byers said: so anyone buying it and seeking out its creation can only add to its already notable success.

HA HA HA HA HA HA! Byers, since when does "the company producing it went BANKRUPT" equal "success" in any logically consistent universe? Oh, that's right, you don't live in one of those, you live in a fantasy parallel universe in which one minute, there were dinosaurs aboard the mythological livestock scow, and the next minute there weren't, a universe that rearranges itself to conform to apologetic made up shit just because you think it does, and rearranges itself to conform to contradictory apologetic made up shit to boot.

Robert Byers said: Still it shouldn't be movies but it should be the educational system that teaches about origin issues from all sides.

Oh dear, not THIS blatant creationist lie you've been peddling for at least two years to my knowledge, and which I've roundly flushed down the toilet every time you've erected it. The educational system exists to teach people facts, Byers, not lies erected to prop up an ideological masturbation fantasy of a doctrine arising from theological pornography. Which describes your creationist fantasies to a tee. The reason your sad little doctrine and its lunatic assertions are not taught in science classes, Byers, is because your doctrine and its assertions are not science. Science classes exist to teach SCIENCE, not mythology, Byers. When are you going to learn this elementary lesson, and cease and desist from tiresome whingeing about the fact that your lie-ridden doctrine is excluded from science classes because your lie-ridden doctrine is precisely that - a pack of lies?

JimNorth said: Call me depressed... Since the movie grossed 7.7 million USD at a cost of about 3.5 million - I am pessimistic about this venture. But I still donated.

id.lachy.id.au said: Instead of requesting non-refundable contributions for something you may not get, you should instead set up a KickStarter project, set an appropriate goal based on an analysis of the value of the film and the expected bids of other potential/expected bidders, and then make your bid accordingly. That will give people a choice to donate unconditionally (using your existing process) or to pledge an amount that will be contributed if you win. If you don't win, then the people who contribute via the kickstarter project won't lose their money. Asking for donations of an unspecified amount, without indicating how much has been donated so far, and without also clearly specifying what the funds will be used for in the event of a loss, is asking too much from some people, myself included.

Ah, never mind, it uses extended bidding so there is unlikely to be too many last-second shennanigans.

Well, the link's still there for people, even if my commentary was all wrong. :)

jinxmchue said: @revtim: "Just to be clear here, our donations will be returned or not taken if the bid loses, right?" No, actually, the donations will not, under any circumstances, be returned. To wit:

(4) As a practical matter, the Foundation will be unable to return any donations made to the donors, even if the Foundation is unsuccessful in bidding for Expelled, or the Foundation is successful and the amount donated is greater than the bid. We are therefore simply asking potential donors to make contributions (which are tax-deductible in the United States) to the TalkOrigins Foundation. Although the Foundation would like to use those funds towards the purchase of Expelled, given the constraints facing the Foundation, THE FOUNDATION CANNOT MAKE ANY GUARANTEE OR PROMISE CONCERNING THE EXPENDITURE OF THE DONATED FUNDS. Funds not used to acquire Expelled will be used for other purposes consistent with the Foundation's non-profit purposes. Due to the time constraints, the Foundation can only attempt to bid with the funds it has on hand and those donated to its Paypal account as of Monday, June 27, 2011.

It's highly unlikely that they will win the bidding, so if you're donating money, be aware that you're simply lining the pockets of these guys. "Also, if the bid wins, I would like to suggest that a version of the film be made with subtitles or pop ups that explain the fallacies and lies in real time." And you could show it on VH1!

Is there a way you can contact all biology teachers? They should be very interested.

I'll expand a little on the "lining our pockets" comment. I tried getting two other entities interested in bidding on the project before bringing it up with the rest of the TOAF board. (I thought of another group after I posted this comment.) I didn't get any response from the first, and the second considered but rejected trying to bid on "Expelled" themselves. That's part of why this is a hurry-up project for TOAF, since I waited to see whether other, larger groups would take the lead on this. I just didn't want to see this opportunity pass by. If "Expelled" went for a low bid to an antievolution group, I'd be kicking myself for a long time to come. So, despite the fact that I would have preferred to let other people take action, when it became clear that nobody else was making a community effort out of it, I brought it to the TOAF board. The fund-raising approach may not be the best possible, but I think it is the best practical approach given the time constraints.

I read the fine print. Keep my money whatever happens. Buy a movie or save the world; it's all good.

What would we do with materials from the "Expelled" auction should we win? I mentioned in the post that we would want to release outtakes and other materials online, should they be preserved in the auction.

Even if we only got exactly the rights to the finished, cut film, we would look to make certain that future distribution of the work clearly exposed its as-originally-produced context as propaganda. NCSE already has various short, professionally-produced rebuttal videos. We would hope to collaborate with NCSE on producing a longer version of "Expelled" with integrated rebuttals, aiming for online release. There is a current distribution contract, so modulo its provisions, I think that modifying the current running-time version with revealing subtitles would be one worthwhile effort. (For instance, Ben Stein is shown lecturing to a packed hall at a college, so one piece of information to be delivered would be, "This room is filled with paid extras.")

Kevin Miller, scriptwriter for "Expelled", claims that we'll be disappointed, saying that he has copies of transcripts of the interviews and that there's nothing incriminating there. Whether the transcripts are "disappointing" in just that way or not, I'd be aiming to have all of those published via the TalkOrigins Archive as soon as possible.

In general, I will be pushing for as wide and as open a release of material as possible, consistent with whatever legal responsibilities carry over and with a mind to make this as useless as possible for continued religious antievolution exploitation. I don't know that I can be much more specific about what we will do until (1) we win the auction and (2) have an inventory of materials to work with and (3) have the complete set of existing legal agreements related to the material in hand to study.

Wesley R. Elsberry said: What would we do with materials from the "Expelled" auction should we win? I mentioned in the post that we would want to release outtakes and other materials online, should they be preserved in the auction. Even if we only got exactly the rights to the finished, cut film, we would look to make certain that future distribution of the work clearly exposed its as-originally-produced context as propaganda. NCSE already has various short, professionally-produced rebuttal videos. We would hope to collaborate with NCSE on producing a longer version of "Expelled" with integrated rebuttals, aiming for online release. There is a current distribution contract, so modulo its provisions, I think that modifying the current running-time version with revealing subtitles would be one worthwhile effort. (For instance, Ben Stein is shown lecturing to a packed hall at a college, so one piece of information to be delivered would be, "This room is filled with paid extras.") Kevin Miller, scriptwriter for "Expelled", claims that we'll be disappointed, saying that he has copies of transcripts of the interviews and that there's nothing incriminating there. Whether the transcripts are "disappointing" in just that way or not, I'd be aiming to have all of those published via the TalkOrigins Archive as soon as possible. In general, I will be pushing for as wide and as open a release of material as possible, consistent with whatever legal responsibilities carry over and with a mind to make this as useless as possible for continued religious antievolution exploitation. I don't know that I can be much more specific about what we will do until (1) we win the auction and (2) have an inventory of materials to work with and (3) have the complete set of existing legal agreements related to the material in hand to study.

Oops I meant the bidding is up to $1600. I found that this link shows the bidding history http://www.maxanet.com/cgi-bin/mnhistory.cgi?rosen2/1 . 8461 seems to be the most interested at the moment.

Well I dumped my $100 in. Even if we don't win the auction I know it will go to a good cause.

(Still having some issues with posting... hopefully resolved now.)

wikipedia: Expelled's Blu-ray Disc and DVD releases distributed by Vivendi Visual Entertainment grossed over $1,850,000 in total sales.[129

From what I've seen and heard about Ebay, nothing much will happen until Tuesday, June 28 at the very end. That is when the serious bidders will start bidding against each other.

Long-time lurker delurking. Sent a few bucks. It said 3-5 days for eCheck transaction, but on another page it said it would transfer instantly if I had a linked credit card, which I do. Hopefully it shows up on time!

Re-engaging cloaking device....

As for any claims that there will be "nothing incriminating" with respect to the material on the cutting floor, well the fact that they had to obtain interviews from people such as PZ Myers by false pretences, on its own demonstrates what a duplicitous project Expelled was right from the start. Consequently, I would be pretty surprised if the out-takes and cutting room material, didn't reveal yet more mendacity on the part of the makers of this turgid little propaganda screed.

Of course, we'll have to wait until [1] TalkOrigins is successful in obtaining the material, and [2] sifts through the evidence, before we'll know for sure. However, I have now reached the point where, after having dealt with creationists for four years, I consider creationists to be capable of limitless malfeasance. Frankly, I would not trust a creationist to tell me that two plus two equals four, without seeking independent verification from a proper scholarly source. As a direct corollary of having experienced the willingness of creationists to lie through their teeth, in order to propagandise their miserable little doctrine, finding that the cutting room material didn't reveal yet more skulduggery and intrigue, would be a monumental anti-climax.

No doubt that if Ahamson (or someone like him) really really wants it, they can probably get it.

— eric

Put in US $50.00 toward these worthy goals; I hope we win. I would be very interested to know exactly what, and how much, ended up on the cutting-room floor.

Since we are dealing with zealots here, though, I do not expect them to conduct the sale in good faith. The moment they realize that TOAF has the winning bid, I fully expect them to destroy as much as they think they can get away with.

If there is any reason for optimism, I just checked to see that the maximum high bid for this is approximately $5,000. Wish I could donate but am flat broke at this point.

John said: If there is any reason for optimism, I just checked to see that the maximum high bid for this is approximately $5,000. Wish I could donate but am flat broke at this point.

If Ahmanson is anything like I hear he is, no cost is too great...

I fully expect them to destroy as much as they think they can get away with.

jinxmchue: I'd like to know the thought process that led to the determination that it is "highly unlikely" that TO would win the bidding. You may well be right, but are you basing this on something? I was thinking there is a reasonably good chance.

Personally, given that I have no experience or information on which to estimate odds on the matter, I can only fall back on the "default assumption of ignorance" of 50:50 -- "I have as much reason to think it will work as think it won't, we'll see."

raven said: I'm not sure who funded Expelled, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was Ahmanson in the first place. The backers were never overly concerned with making a profit.

Greg Laden said: jinxmchue: I'd like to know the thought process that led to the determination that it is "highly unlikely" that TO would win the bidding. You may well be right, but are you basing this on something? I was thinking there is a reasonably good chance.

Dave Luckett said: Definitely, Byers. In ten years time, this little film will be right up there with "Plan 9 from Outer Space" or "Attack of the Killer Tomatoes". People will be making sound tracks up for it, splicing in extra footage, looping it, doing raps to it. It'll be a cult classic!

calilasseia said: As for any claims that there will be "nothing incriminating" with respect to the material on the cutting floor, well the fact that they had to obtain interviews from people such as PZ Myers by false pretences, on its own demonstrates what a duplicitous project Expelled was right from the start. Consequently, I would be pretty surprised if the out-takes and cutting room material, didn't reveal yet more mendacity on the part of the makers of this turgid little propaganda screed. Of course, we'll have to wait until [1] TalkOrigins is successful in obtaining the material, and [2] sifts through the evidence, before we'll know for sure. However, I have now reached the point where, after having dealt with creationists for four years, I consider creationists to be capable of limitless malfeasance. Frankly, I would not trust a creationist to tell me that two plus two equals four, without seeking independent verification from a proper scholarly source. As a direct corollary of having experienced the willingness of creationists to lie through their teeth, in order to propagandise their miserable little doctrine, finding that the cutting room material didn't reveal yet more skulduggery and intrigue, would be a monumental anti-climax.

Ray Martinez said: Since we already know that Atheists/Darwinists hate Creationists, what's the point?

Ray Martinez said:

calilasseia said: As for any claims that there will be "nothing incriminating" with respect to the material on the cutting floor, well the fact that they had to obtain interviews from people such as PZ Myers by false pretences, on its own demonstrates what a duplicitous project Expelled was right from the start. Consequently, I would be pretty surprised if the out-takes and cutting room material, didn't reveal yet more mendacity on the part of the makers of this turgid little propaganda screed. Of course, we'll have to wait until [1] TalkOrigins is successful in obtaining the material, and [2] sifts through the evidence, before we'll know for sure. However, I have now reached the point where, after having dealt with creationists for four years, I consider creationists to be capable of limitless malfeasance. Frankly, I would not trust a creationist to tell me that two plus two equals four, without seeking independent verification from a proper scholarly source. As a direct corollary of having experienced the willingness of creationists to lie through their teeth, in order to propagandise their miserable little doctrine, finding that the cutting room material didn't reveal yet more skulduggery and intrigue, would be a monumental anti-climax.

Since we already know that Atheists/Darwinists hate Creationists, what's the point?

Well, Ray's not used to the idea of people saying they like him much -- but the sadness in the case is indisputable.

Ray Martinez said:

Dave Luckett said: Definitely, Byers. In ten years time, this little film will be right up there with "Plan 9 from Outer Space" or "Attack of the Killer Tomatoes". People will be making sound tracks up for it, splicing in extra footage, looping it, doing raps to it. It'll be a cult classic!

Could you please tell us exactly what is wrong with the film?

We're hoping that this will be just the preview.

Ray Martinez just made me donate to TalkOrigins

That's kind of an idea there, isn't it? We need to promote the "Ray Martinez Honorary Fund" for the talk.origins donation drive.

OK, we've got one donation -- already chipped in myself, can't add on, drat. Anybody else want to pledge money in honor of the Ray?

Ray Martinez said: Could you please tell us exactly what is wrong with the film?

Ray Martinez -

I've asked you this before and I'm going to keep on asking until I get an answer.

According to your beliefs, some people are damned from birth (arguably from the beginning of the universe), and only people like that accept the theory of evolution, but they're also damned no matter what they do, isn't that right? I'm basing this on what I've seen you say before.

So then, Ray, why do you bother arguing with us? According to you, we're all damned from birth no matter what we do, so what difference does it make? Even if we became creationists, we'd still be preordained to be damned, or we can never become creationists because we're preordained, or some such thing, so why do you waste your time?

harold said: ... so why do you waste your time?

PS: On listening to fundies and getting a sense of their emphasis, they seem to find the prospect of going to Heaven much less a matter of importance than the fact that everyone else won't.

mrg said: PS: On listening to fundies and getting a sense of their emphasis, they seem to find the prospect of going to Heaven much less a matter of importance than the fact that everyone else won't.

harold said: Yes, that's right, the entire US right ...

The false premise being, “gosh, things are so incredibly complex that something intelligent must have designed everything…therefore, anyone not adhering to this idea will be expelled from academia and suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune”…and so forth.

PS: On listening to fundies and getting a sense of their emphasis, they seem to find the prospect of going to Heaven much less a matter of importance than the fact that everyone else won’t.

jinxmchue said: So which part is false? That complex things are designed by intelligent beings (did computers and jets just happen to evolve into existence all by themselves?) or that people who don't accept evolution are often drummed out of academia?

jinxmchue said: That complex things are designed by intelligent beings (did computers and jets just happen to evolve into existence all by themselves?) ...

jinxmchue said: Which is why evangelism exists.

Hmm...I wonder how many IDiots think that all planets were designed in detail.

Think of how complex Jupiter is--not just the planet, but its whole system and influence: all its moons and their details, radiation belts, magnetic field, ring system, weather patterns, chemical composition, auroras, lightning, ad infinitum.

How much "complex specified information" (whatever that is) must it contain? And remember, it's not static, but a dynamic, evolving, interacting system. It's more a system of phenomena than a thing.

Was Jupiter "designed" at some time in the past to be just as it is now, and be doing what it's doing right now?

I just made a donation, hope its not too late to get processed! Hope more people donate and TO winds the auction. It'd be great if the extra material was made publically available.

I have only ever heard of Panda's thumb in passing. I have heard of expelled. $50 donation is totally worth it.

My only objection is that the makers of the rubbish are in effect getting something out of it.

If we donate to a fund to purchase "expelled", we have effectively made the enterprise more profitable than otherwise, and the creationists have achieved their aim (exchanging their rubbish for money). At very least we might have made creationist ventures a little less odious to underwrite, thereby reducing the difficulty in yet another being made.

We don't really *need* to see the evidence of creationist dishonesty *yet again*.

Those selectively quoted in the film can publicly state their objection, and state that the producers were dishonest as a matter of fact. Should such a matter go to court, the greater interviews that were selectively quoted can be shown and the producers can pay the damages, or admit to destroying such material.

The desired materials may have been tampered with or corrupted in any case, and anybody owning the entire item may find itself "owning" further liabilities yet undiscovered.

Let creationists spend their money on it, if they are of a mind.

Then again, running up the bid to own it, even if not "won" at least transfers more creationist money to (possibly) worthy creditors of the defunct producers, so this may be a good enterprise after all.

Hmmm, better have anaother beer...

Rusty

rusty.catheter said: My only objection is that the makers of the rubbish are in effect getting something out of it. Rusty

Susan Silberstein said: I'm also in for $50. I was going to send coffee to John Wilkins. He will have to keep drinking bilge water.

Paul Burnett said: A very few people whose minds were so crippled by these base superstitions that their scientific productivity stopped after a while were indeed "drummed out of academia" (such as Gonzalez), as would anybody who cannot produce in a production-oriented environment - but the great majority continue to be gainfully employed in academia (such as Behe and Dembski).

john.s.wilkins said:

Susan Silberstein said: I'm also in for $50. I was going to send coffee to John Wilkins. He will have to keep drinking bilge water.

Damn. And I was looking forward to decent coffee, too...

My only objection is that the makers of the rubbish are in effect getting something out of it.

apokryltaros said:

john.s.wilkins said:

Susan Silberstein said: I'm also in for $50. I was going to send coffee to John Wilkins. He will have to keep drinking bilge water.

Damn. And I was looking forward to decent coffee, too...

Dandelion root makes a decent coffee substitute.

I was reading the description of what is actually for sale here. It looks great -- all rights, exposed film, manuscripts, etc. Then I got to the disclaimers at the end, and it stopped looking so good.

1} It 'may be subject to certain distribution and manufacturing rights held by Vivendi Entertainment' -- the distribution rights we already knew about, but 'manufacturing rights'? So winning the bid might still mean someone out there is still printing and selling the original IDC dreck?

2} The sale 'will be “AS IS, WHERE IS without warranty except for the transfer of title through Trustee' -- so while the identities of the bidders is secret during the auction, the winner has to go to wherever the material is and identify themselves as the rightful owner to get it. As soon as an anti-creationist does this, exactly what assurance is there that 'AS IS, WHERE IS' will not rapidly become ashes or shredded remains? All it takes is a little stalling for time and a few phone-calls around to the folks who are holding the materials... then they can claim, 'oh, its been that way for months'.

By all means, I hope TOAF wins this one -- but actually getting the material and stopping the stupid (if it is even possible at all) will require careful handling. By no means do I trust the owners of the film, or expect them to suddenly begin acting in good faith.

I see the purchase of this film as important. We sometimes forget that we have a special position within the evolution/creation/ID debate. We are well informed, we care passionately about it, and many of us actively contribute (such as Mr. Elsberry, Mr. Cartwright and many, many others).

This debate may never come to a full conclusion but we must never back down. There is a larger pattern of recycled arguments and dishonesty and while those that are entrenched on the other side will remain so, many people out there can be persuaded by pointing out this pattern. This is why we continually refute the same arguments. I consider it endlessly dismaying that it is the same arguments that must be batted down again and again, but if that's what must be done, that's what we should do.

I was not raised religious but I had the "always respect religion" perspective simply by soaking it up from culture. In college I explored Christianity, figuring it was worth a look. I had trouble becoming a true believer but bought into the "evolution is a myth" line. I eventually questioned that and explored evolution, I think PZ Myers helped a considerable amount, and it became obvious that science was right on this issue. A Christian friend that is relatively more rational than other Christians we know was skeptical of evolution until he looked into it. He agrees science is right.

People CAN be persuaded. Anything and everything we can do to counter anti-science arguments, in all their new packaging, must be done. Obtaining Expelled might be a major deal or a minor thing, based on what comes with it, but it is undoubtedly a chance to bring more of the other side's arguments to the light of day. There may be no smoking gun in any material that comes as part of this purchase, but that doesn't matter. I suspect simply showing the full interviews unedited will be useful. And imagine a headline like "Pro-Evolution Organization Obtains Rights to Anti-Evolution Film Expelled!" Publicity could help us get our voice out in the public space again.

raven said:

If Ahmanson is anything like I hear he is, no cost is too great...

Ahmanson funds the DI with $2 million a year, roughly half their budget. He also funds Exodus International, a gay genocide promoting organization. While he is a billionaire and could easily afford it, AFAICT, his main accomplishment in life was winning the lucky sperm competition, i.e. it is all inherited money.

J. L. Brown said: so while the identities of the bidders is secret during the auction, the winner has to go to wherever the material is and identify themselves as the rightful owner to get it. As soon as an anti-creationist does this, exactly what assurance is there that 'AS IS, WHERE IS' will not rapidly become ashes or shredded remains? All it takes is a little stalling for time and a few phone-calls around to the folks who are holding the materials... then they can claim, 'oh, its been that way for months'. ... By no means do I trust the owners of the film, or expect them to suddenly begin acting in good faith.

J. L. Brown said: I was reading the description of what is actually for sale here. It looks great -- all rights, exposed film, manuscripts, etc. Then I got to the disclaimers at the end, and it stopped looking so good. 1} It 'may be subject to certain distribution and manufacturing rights held by Vivendi Entertainment' -- the distribution rights we already knew about, but 'manufacturing rights'? So winning the bid might still mean someone out there is still printing and selling the original IDC dreck?

2} The sale 'will be “AS IS, WHERE IS without warranty except for the transfer of title through Trustee' -- so while the identities of the bidders is secret during the auction, the winner has to go to wherever the material is and identify themselves as the rightful owner to get it. As soon as an anti-creationist does this, exactly what assurance is there that 'AS IS, WHERE IS' will not rapidly become ashes or shredded remains? All it takes is a little stalling for time and a few phone-calls around to the folks who are holding the materials... then they can claim, 'oh, its been that way for months'. By all means, I hope TOAF wins this one -- but actually getting the material and stopping the stupid (if it is even possible at all) will require careful handling. By no means do I trust the owners of the film, or expect them to suddenly begin acting in good faith.

People CAN be persuaded. Anything and everything we can do to counter anti-science arguments, in all their new packaging, must be done.

— Jeff

I just donated a few bucks! RBH's coverage of the John Freshwater trial has been worth WAY more than that! It's the least I could do, good luck and go get 'em!

Ok, I understand that the current receivers are not the original production company, and that deserving creditors may see some fraction of what they are owed returned by such an auction.

*but*

The less they get, the less they may be willing to extend credit to creationist ventures in the future.

That being said, I hope the materials are forthcoming as they will confirm yet again the creationist habit of taking quotes out of context.

Given that creationists do so routinely indicates that creationists are of such poor faith that tampering with material before handing it to receivers is entirely conceivable.

Rusty

Just mad a donation,good luck.

I made my donation and I don't care if we get the documentary or not. I am also more than willing to have any funds go to the TO foundation. Good work guys.

$200.00 dontated to one of the best causes I've donated to all year! Good luck at the auction.

Ben Stein ought to buy it to keep all the out-takes of his goofy face from falling into "Darwinist" hands.

Bidding jumped up to $20,150 USD as of 27 jun 12:22 ET. It seems the contest is now starting in earnest.

WOW! The bidding hit the $20,000 mark after I went to bed. Don't tell us if TOAF has begun the bid process; that would be information others would want to know, but I'm anxious. Anyone want to secure a second mortgage for this?

JimNorth said: Call me depressed... Since the movie grossed 7.7 million USD at a cost of about 3.5 million - I am pessimistic about this venture. But I still donated. I can't find any data about Premise Media Holdings concerning its bankruptcy sheets, but I have a gut feeling that the reserve bid is in the $800,000 range (assuming 10 cents on the dollar the creditors wish to receive). IANA CPA.

I wasn't surprised about the auction reserve price. The value of the property is a steeply declining function of time in this case, and the film was massively oversold at the outset, which artificially inflated the numbers up front.

SensuousCurmudgeon said: Ben Stein ought to buy it to keep all the out-takes of his goofy face from falling into "Darwinist" hands.

Frank J said:

SensuousCurmudgeon said: Ben Stein ought to buy it to keep all the out-takes of his goofy face from falling into "Darwinist" hands.

And yet we already have something even more golden than those out-takes, and it didn't cost a cent. That is 3+ years of his running away from the "Set Ben Straight" answers to his nonsense. I can't imagine anyone in their right mind turning down an opportunity to provide a rebuttal, let alone say "I stand corrected." Then again, no one ever claimed that pseudoscience-peddling paranoid conspiracy junkies were ever in their right mind.

Well, in all fairness, Ben Stein has been reduced to selling eye drops by washing a giant eye to get the red out. Seems like a pretty ignominious end for the once glorified financial consultant. On the other hand, they probably paid him millions to do the commercial. So maybe being a whore money worshipper paid off for him after all. Anyway, it sure is fun to watch Shaq kick his pasty white tush in basketball. No idea what they are supposed to be trying to sell, but once again they probably paid him a fortune just to look stupid again. Now that's someone you can trust to tell you the truth about science. What a role model.

@John:

Thanks. I remember that article, and have to wonder if Stein let Derbyshire have the last word too.

When these people know better than to reply, it tells me that they know they don't have a reasonable argument. Unfortunately they know that they don't need one, because their goal to "flood" the media - and public school science class if they ever get their way - with misleading, but catchy, sound bites. They know that most people don't have the time or interest to pay attention to thoughtful, and sometimes highly technical, rebuttals.

Frank J said: @John: Thanks. I remember that article, and have to wonder if Stein let Derbyshire have the last word too. When these people know better than to reply, it tells me that they know they don't have a reasonable argument. Unfortunately they know that they don't need one, because their goal to "flood" the media - and public school science class if they ever get their way - with misleading, but catchy, sound bites. They know that most people don't have the time or interest to pay attention to thoughtful, and sometimes highly technical, rebuttals.

@John:

Thanks again. Unlike Stein, the DI can't afford to be completely silent. So how do they respond to the many ctiticisms of "Expelled?" By defending their own "science" on it's own merits? Of course not. They know and occasionally admit (e.g. oft-cited quotes from Johnson and Nelson) that they have none. By giving more evidence of the alleged "expulsions" or the "Darwin/Hitler" connection? Of course not, they know that's nonsense too.

So what's the best they can offer? Whining that Derbyshire does not "understand" ID (never mind that the strategy is rigged with so many word games that one cannot ever "understand" it without raving about it), and that he did not see the movie! That's almost as pathetic as them calling Judge Jones an "activist judge" after he predicted they would.

The final bid was for $13,200. Hopefully the winning bidder was TalkOrigins Archive Foundation:

http://www.maxanet.com/cgi-bin/mnhistory.cgi?rosen2/1

Frank J said: @John: Thanks again. Unlike Stein, the DI can't afford to be completely silent. So how do they respond to the many ctiticisms of "Expelled?" By defending their own "science" on it's own merits? Of course not. They know and occasionally admit (e.g. oft-cited quotes from Johnson and Nelson) that they have none. By giving more evidence of the alleged "expulsions" or the "Darwin/Hitler" connection? Of course not, they know that's nonsense too. So what's the best they can offer? Whining that Derbyshire does not "understand" ID (never mind that the strategy is rigged with so many word games that one cannot ever "understand" it without raving about it), and that he did not see the movie! That's almost as pathetic as them calling Judge Jones an "activist judge" after he predicted they would.

Bidding is in continuation and up to $167,500 as of last check.

OOPS, I left out an extra zero. The winning bid was for $132,000 as noted here:

http://www.maxanet.com/cgi-bin/mnhistory.cgi?rosen2/1

mrg said: Bidding is in continuation and up to $167,500 as of last check.

$201,000 is the winner. Can we now have the big reveal?

Unfortunately, the winning bid was *not* from the TOAF. Ken Fair has a detailed statement about the campaign that will be up a bit later.

How much did the efforts raise btw? I hopped TO would win, but I am glad that my donation will still be put to good use.

Oh well, the komputer klutz tried to make a donation, but I don't think it was processed. I read that there was a glitch in the beginning, but it's more fun to blame the klutz. Anyway, the 13th year NCSE member (not so subtle hint: join now!) will try again knowing that the donations will still go to a good cause.

Should have had Bill Gates chip in a million.