SIX Years Already? Merry Kitzmas!

(edited from my Talk.Origins post)

Merry Kitzmas, evolution-deniers!

It’s hard to believe but will be 6 years since an “activist judge” banned creationism, ID, and all other assorted anti-evolution arguments from every outlet that you counted on - the Internet, books, films, private school non-science classes, etc.

You may not believe me, but I feel your pain. So I’m actually going to break the law and give you a Kitzmas present that will have you jumping for joy. I wanted to find as many anti-evolution arguments in one place as possible for you to enjoy all year round. As a bonus,
since you advocate “critical analysis,” your Kitzmas present includes a critical analysis of all those arguments.

Wait, there’s more! I pulled some strings so that if you want to use
this Kitzmas present as “supplemental material” in private school non-science classes, you will be granted the “academic freedom” to do so.

Yes, if only "Darwinists" could be forced to tell the truth in court. Why then we'd............find out officially what a corrupt and dishonest sham ID is (more importantly, the rest of the world that pays far less attention to creationism than we do would learn this).

Glen Davidson

Merry Kitzmas!

I remember reading the transcripts of the trial as it was going on and the reports by the NCSE and the most wonderful Lauri Lebo (buy her book!)

Those were heady days and when Jones' decision came out it was like chum in the water, such a frenzy of blog postings, analysis and, ultimately, celebration.

I think we should thank Expert Witness Dr. M. Behe without whom we wouldn't have the clarification that ID is like astrology. Thanks, Mikey, that was great.

And, second, I would like to thank Dr. Dr. Willie D. who provides such insightful testimony on the nature of the theory of ID, and just nailed it on the improbability of Darwinian whatsis thingies ...

Oh, wait, ... Dr. Dr. went AWOL after he witnessed Barbara Forrests deposition. Probably the smartest thing he's ever done, all things considered!

Six years, has it been that long? I believe Luskin is still writing refutations, he only got to the immune system and evolution-of-new-genes evidence in the last year or two...

That was a very welcome day. A lot of people worked very hard toward that event. Since then ID creationism has not managed to officially infiltrate a single school district.

Merry Kitzmas everyone! Damn, I forgot it was today.

The impact of the trial is best visualized by google trends or insight.

A Masked Panda said: The impact of the trial is best visualized by google trends or insight.

Statement A: The development of life came about through an unguided process of random mutations and natural selection. Statement B: The development of life was guided by intelligent design. Statement A: 33% Statement B: 52% Neither: 7% Other/Not sure: 8

As FL always manages to demonstrate by his very existence; there can never be a lower bound to the IQ scale.

I remember reading the decision here as a interested observer and thinking, 'oh my, get over to UD quick they'll be ropeable!' They were; angry young campers to a man, with the egregious Dembsky heading off to make fart jokes.

Yes FL, the decision has been torn to shreads at, AIG, UD and a vast number of other footstomping, kindergarden, echochambers. Check out the husk that is UD these days and you can see the depths to which they have been reduced.

Doc Bill remembers Dembsky running like a scared child upon being confronted by the indefatigable Barbara F, so do I. But do you remember his 'backdoor' antics at trying to have his testimony read into evidence as an 'absent' expert witness? The mighty judge treated the twit with the contempt he deserved and said if he wants to say something, step up and say it. William's answer was the answer John Cleese's character gave in the "Holy Grail"; 'Run Awaaaaay!!'

robert van bakel said: I remember reading the decision here as a interested observer and thinking, 'oh my, get over to UD quick they'll be ropeable!' They were; angry young campers to a man, with the egregious Dembsky heading off to make fart jokes. Yes FL, the decision has been torn to shreads at, AIG, UD and a vast number of other footstomping, kindergarden, echochambers. Check out the husk that is UD these days and you can see the depths to which they have been reduced. Doc Bill remembers Dembsky running like a scared child upon being confronted by the indefatigable Barbara F, so do I. But do you remember his 'backdoor' antics at trying to have his testimony read into evidence as an 'absent' expert witness? The mighty judge treated the twit with the contempt he deserved and said if he wants to say something, step up and say it. William's answer was the answer John Cleese's character gave in the "Holy Grail"; 'Run Awaaaaay!!'

https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawm-WhebH0itIDDTj06EQo2vtiF0BBqF10Q said: The impact of the trial is best visualized by google trends or insight.

Except for a few crazy legislators or presidential candidates, ID just doesn’t make the news any more.

That should tell you something.

— FL

Actually Robert, what I remember best about William Dembski regarding the Kitzmiller trial is this:

http://www.designinference.com/documents/2005.09.Expert_Rebuttal_Dembski.pdf

...and I made myself a copy for future use, should I ever find myself in a discussion with somebody who likes to quote Forrest, Padian, and others. It's not a be-all and end-all, but the information comes in quite handy, I've noticed. Judge Jones, of course, wasn't able to deal with it. There was a lot of stuff he wasn't able to deal with.

****

Honestly? In hindsight, I think one of the great disadvantages for you evolutionist guys was that you actually WON the Dover trial.

You guys got so astonishingly lazy afterwards (not just here but all evolution outlets), you got to the point where you mindlessly started saying "Dover", "Kitzmiller", or "Cdesign" like a robotic Magic Mantra. "See? Here's Dover; discussion over!"

Meanwhile, your opposition kept on examining and reexamining Jones' decision, the arguments used, and the assumptions involved. They kept checking things out. They made sure that all your expert testimonies (Forrest, Padian, Miller) were properly and minutely responded to...and that the critiques were in writing and accessible to the public.

Issues like the Kitzmiller attorney trying to make it look as if Behe endorsed astrology as modern science, have been explained, resolved, neutralized by now.

In other words, a lot of pro-ID groundwork was laid, not just during the trial, but afterwards, even while evolutionists kept on celebrating and parroting the Magic Mantra. At this time, every Kitzmiller angle from "Cdesign..." to "Is ID religious..." has been thoroughly covered. The groundwork has been done.

****

You guys won the trial and with it, you won a lot of media and cultural influence. For a while.

But Kitzmiller was receiving serious dissection and fisking virtually before the ink was dry, and now, six years later, Kitzmiller's media and cultural influence--its primary advantage--is on a very steep wane. The people, ultimately, didn't buy into it.

FL

In other words, a lot of pro-ID groundwork was laid, not just during the trial, but afterwards, even while evolutionists kept on celebrating and parroting the Magic Mantra.

At this time, every Kitzmiller angle from “Cdesign…” to “Is ID religious…” has been thoroughly covered.

FL said: The groundwork has been done.

Speaking of "groundwork" can anyone tell me whether the Biologic Institute is an actual laboratory or whether it's simply a web site?

So, tell us, FL, what sort of pro-Intelligent Design research, and how many pro-Intelligent Design papers has the Discovery Institute put out since Dover? What "ground work" was laid out in Dover that will help Intelligent Design?

Oh, wait, they've done nothing, and Dover helped exposed Intelligent Design as another Big Lie For Jesus.

Les Lane said: Speaking of "groundwork" can anyone tell me whether the Biologic Institute is an actual laboratory or whether it's simply a web site?

FL blathers thus: "Actually Robert, what I remember best about William Dembski regarding the Kitzmiller trial is this:

http://www.designinference.com/docu[…]_Dembski.pdf "

I love that document too. In legal terms, that's called "unsworn inadmissible hearsay." It's one of my favorite Kitzmiller documents.

Dembski didn't have the guts to actually stand up, get sworn in and testify under penalty of perjury. At least Behe made the effort and look where it got him.

Kitzmiller, where ID finally had the opportunity to get a level playing field where both sides could testify under penalty of perjury.

ID forgot that means you have to tell the truth.

sealawr said: Dembski didn't have the guts to actually stand up, get sworn in and testify under penalty of perjury. At least Behe made the effort and look where it got him.

FL said: ...Honestly? In hindsight, I think one of the great disadvantages for you evolutionist guys was that you actually WON the Dover trial.

You guys got so astonishingly lazy afterwards (not just here but all evolution outlets), you got to the point where you mindlessly started saying "Dover", "Kitzmiller", or "Cdesign" like a robotic Magic Mantra. "See? Here's Dover; discussion over!"

Meanwhile, your opposition kept on examining and reexamining Jones' decision, the arguments used, and the assumptions involved. They kept checking things out. They made sure that all your expert testimonies (Forrest, Padian, Miller) were properly and minutely responded to...and that the critiques were in writing and accessible to the public.

Issues like the Kitzmiller attorney trying to make it look as if Behe endorsed astrology as modern science, have been explained, resolved, neutralized by now.

In other words, a lot of pro-ID groundwork was laid, not just during the trial, but afterwards, even while evolutionists kept on celebrating and parroting the Magic Mantra. At this time, every Kitzmiller angle from "Cdesign..." to "Is ID religious..." has been thoroughly covered. The groundwork has been done.

sealawr said: FL blathers thus: "Actually Robert, what I remember best about William Dembski regarding the Kitzmiller trial is this: http://www.designinference.com/docu[…]_Dembski.pdf " I love that document too. In legal terms, that's called "unsworn inadmissible hearsay." It's one of my favorite Kitzmiller documents. Dembski didn't have the guts to actually stand up, get sworn in and testify under penalty of perjury. At least Behe made the effort and look where it got him.

sealawr said: Dembski didn't have the guts to actually stand up, get sworn in and testify under penalty of perjury. At least Behe made the effort and look where it got him. Kitzmiller, where ID finally had the opportunity to get a level playing field where both sides could testify under penalty of perjury. ID forgot that means you have to tell the truth.

Gosh. By now, Kitzmiller has got to be one of the most fisked court decision (and ole Judge Jonesy one of the most fisked judicial activists) in recent American jurisprudence.

Kitzmiller is now stuck with multiple refutations from multiple angles. Some are online, some made it into law journals, but there's plenty of good anti-Kitzmiller refutations on the table, that's for sure.

DeWolf, West, and Luskin said it best in a 2007 Montana Law Review article: "Judge Jones’s opinion will serve future judges only with an example of how NOT to analyze the issues that were presented to him." (For more information, see the following article, which includes a link to the MLR article: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/11/did_judge_jones_get_anything_r027721.html )

At any rate, the Kitzmiller Decision been sliced and diced so thoroughly, there's not much chance of it recovering all the ground that it has lost.

Furthermore, in six years, NO school board or governmental entity has repeated the same specific, egregrious legal mistake that the Dover School Board stubbornly insisted on making, (against the clear public warnings of ID advocates), to its own detriment.

Nor was there ever any need to make any such mistake anyway, as Texas and Louisiana have very effectively demonstrated recently.

Did Kitzmiller put an end to ID? Hardly. ID has only spread further and further in the past six years. Notice that Gary Hurd said "officially infiltrate" but carefully remained stone-silent about unofficial infiltration. Mustn't be a Debbie Downer, eh?

Consider well: In 2009, Darwin's 150th birthday, only a few years after all the Kitzmiller Decision media hype, the majority of the American people clearly SUPPORTED intelligent design (Zogby Poll, 1053 likely voters, margin of error +/- 3.1 percentage points):<./blockquote> And how reliable are those polls commissioned by the Disco Tute? "Although Zogby polls commissioned by the Discovery Institute show more support, these polls suffer from considerable flaws, such as having a very low response rate (248 out of 16,000), being conducted on behalf of an organization with an expressed interest in the outcome of the poll, and containing leading questions.[87][88][89]" Yawn.

Statement A: The development of life came about through an unguided process of random mutations and natural selection. Statement B: The development of life was guided by intelligent design. Statement A: 33% Statement B: 52% Neither: 7% Other/Not sure: 8

That should tell you something.

Furthermore, in 2011, PandasThumb is now monitoring ID activity on a WEEKLY basis, week in week out (via Jack Scanlan's blogs). Putting it all together, that should give you some idea of how much ID is clearly worrying the evolutionist community, and how much ID has spread further and further in its national influence over the past six years.

And ID efforts have helped create a national climate in which an overwhelming public majority of Americans support the presentation of both strengths AND weaknesses of evolution whenever the topic is presented in the public schools. ( http://www.discovery.org/a/11631 )

So, in light of these facts, what is Kitzmiller's current value? Well, there's always "Nostalgia" value, like the 15-cent McDonald's hamburger, or the 25-cent-a-gallon gasoline pump. It's always fun to be able to say, "Hey, I was there when..." The good ole days, aye? http://www.flickr.com/photos/springfieldhomer/3924490018/

So by all means, celebrate Kitzmiller. Pour a glass of Welch's Sparkling Grape Juice. Toast with good friends. Just remember that the "good ole days" are long, long gone, if you're an evolutionist. Kitzmiller is NOT officially defeated, nor is it dead. But unofficially...it's caged and declawed and defanged, not to mention a coupla bullet holes in the side. So, enjoy whatever's left of it, baby. Party Hearty!! FL

Dave Luckett said:

robert van bakel said: Doc Bill remembers Dembsky running like a scared child upon being confronted by the indefatigable Barbara F, so do I. But do you remember his 'backdoor' antics at trying to have his testimony read into evidence as an 'absent' expert witness? The mighty judge treated the twit with the contempt he deserved and said if he wants to say something, step up and say it. William's answer was the answer John Cleese's character gave in the "Holy Grail"; 'Run Awaaaaay!!'

That was actually Graham Chapman, as Arthur, when the French started heaving cows at them.

FL said: Gosh. By now, Kitzmiller has got to be one of the most fisked court decision (and ole Judge Jonesy one of the most fisked judicial activists) in recent American jurisprudence. Kitzmiller is now stuck with multiple refutations from multiple angles. Some are online, some made it into law journals, but there's plenty of good anti-Kitzmiller refutations on the table, that's for sure. DeWolf, West, and Luskin said it best in a 2007 Montana Law Review article: "Judge Jones’s opinion will serve future judges only with an example of how NOT to analyze the issues that were presented to him." (For more information, see the following article, which includes a link to the MLR article: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/11/did_judge_jones_get_anything_r027721.html ) At any rate, the Kitzmiller Decision been sliced and diced so thoroughly, there's not much chance of it recovering all the ground that it has lost. Furthermore, in six years, NO school board or governmental entity has repeated the same specific, egregrious legal mistake that the Dover School Board stubbornly insisted on making, (against the clear public warnings of ID advocates), to its own detriment. Nor was there ever any need to make any such mistake anyway, as Texas and Louisiana have very effectively demonstrated recently. **** Did Kitzmiller put an end to ID? Hardly. ID has only spread further and further in the past six years. Notice that Gary Hurd said "officially infiltrate" but carefully remained stone-silent about unofficial infiltration. Mustn't be a Debbie Downer, eh? Consider well: In 2009, Darwin's 150th birthday, only a few years after all the Kitzmiller Decision media hype, the majority of the American people clearly SUPPORTED intelligent design (Zogby Poll, 1053 likely voters, margin of error +/- 3.1 percentage points):

Statement A: The development of life came about through an unguided process of random mutations and natural selection. Statement B: The development of life was guided by intelligent design. Statement A: 33% Statement B: 52% Neither: 7% Other/Not sure: 8

That should tell you something. Furthermore, in 2011, PandasThumb is now monitoring ID activity on a WEEKLY basis, week in week out (via Jack Scanlan's blogs). Putting it all together, that should give you some idea of how much ID is clearly worrying the evolutionist community, and how much ID has spread further and further in its national influence over the past six years. And ID efforts have helped create a national climate in which an overwhelming public majority of Americans support the presentation of both strengths AND weaknesses of evolution whenever the topic is presented in the public schools. ( http://www.discovery.org/a/11631 ) **** So, in light of these facts, what is Kitzmiller's current value? Well, there's always "Nostalgia" value, like the 15-cent McDonald's hamburger, or the 25-cent-a-gallon gasoline pump. It's always fun to be able to say, "Hey, I was there when..." The good ole days, aye? http://www.flickr.com/photos/springfieldhomer/3924490018/ **** So by all means, celebrate Kitzmiller. Pour a glass of Welch's Sparkling Grape Juice. Toast with good friends. Just remember that the "good ole days" are long, long gone, if you're an evolutionist. Kitzmiller is NOT officially defeated, nor is it dead. But unofficially...it's caged and declawed and defanged, not to mention a coupla bullet holes in the side. So, enjoy whatever's left of it, baby. Party Hearty!! FL

Gary_Hurd said: That was a very welcome day. A lot of people worked very hard toward that event. Since then ID creationism has not managed to officially infiltrate a single school district.

FL said: Gosh. By now, Kitzmiller has got to be one of the most fisked court decision (and ole Judge Jonesy one of the most fisked judicial activists) in recent American jurisprudence. Kitzmiller is now stuck with multiple refutations from multiple angles. Some are online, some made it into law journals, but there's plenty of good anti-Kitzmiller refutations on the table, that's for sure. DeWolf, West, and Luskin said it best in a 2007 Montana Law Review article: "Judge Jones’s opinion will serve future judges only with an example of how NOT to analyze the issues that were presented to him." (For more information, see the following article, which includes a link to the MLR article: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/11/did_judge_jones_get_anything_r027721.html ) At any rate, the Kitzmiller Decision been sliced and diced so thoroughly, there's not much chance of it recovering all the ground that it has lost. Furthermore, in six years, NO school board or governmental entity has repeated the same specific, egregrious legal mistake that the Dover School Board stubbornly insisted on making, (against the clear public warnings of ID advocates), to its own detriment. Nor was there ever any need to make any such mistake anyway, as Texas and Louisiana have very effectively demonstrated recently. **** Did Kitzmiller put an end to ID? Hardly. ID has only spread further and further in the past six years. Notice that Gary Hurd said "officially infiltrate" but carefully remained stone-silent about unofficial infiltration. Mustn't be a Debbie Downer, eh? Consider well: In 2009, Darwin's 150th birthday, only a few years after all the Kitzmiller Decision media hype, the majority of the American people clearly SUPPORTED intelligent design (Zogby Poll, 1053 likely voters, margin of error +/- 3.1 percentage points):

Statement A: The development of life came about through an unguided process of random mutations and natural selection. Statement B: The development of life was guided by intelligent design. Statement A: 33% Statement B: 52% Neither: 7% Other/Not sure: 8

That should tell you something. Furthermore, in 2011, PandasThumb is now monitoring ID activity on a WEEKLY basis, week in week out (via Jack Scanlan's blogs). Putting it all together, that should give you some idea of how much ID is clearly worrying the evolutionist community, and how much ID has spread further and further in its national influence over the past six years. And ID efforts have helped create a national climate in which an overwhelming public majority of Americans support the presentation of both strengths AND weaknesses of evolution whenever the topic is presented in the public schools. ( http://www.discovery.org/a/11631 ) **** So, in light of these facts, what is Kitzmiller's current value? Well, there's always "Nostalgia" value, like the 15-cent McDonald's hamburger, or the 25-cent-a-gallon gasoline pump. It's always fun to be able to say, "Hey, I was there when..." The good ole days, aye? http://www.flickr.com/photos/springfieldhomer/3924490018/ **** So by all means, celebrate Kitzmiller. Pour a glass of Welch's Sparkling Grape Juice. Toast with good friends. Just remember that the "good ole days" are long, long gone, if you're an evolutionist. Kitzmiller is NOT officially defeated, nor is it dead. But unofficially...it's caged and declawed and defanged, not to mention a coupla bullet holes in the side. So, enjoy whatever's left of it, baby. Party Hearty!! FL

Hmmm...tried to post last night and got a message that my post was awaiting moderation. I see it is not here this morning. Did I miss something or hit a glitch of some kind?

Robin said: Hmmm...tried to post last night and got a message that my post was awaiting moderation. I see it is not here this morning. Did I miss something or hit a glitch of some kind?

Dave Thomas said:

Robin said: Hmmm...tried to post last night and got a message that my post was awaiting moderation. I see it is not here this morning. Did I miss something or hit a glitch of some kind?

I have approved it. You probably included too many hyperlinks, and thus triggered the SPAM filter. Since it posted with the original timestamp, you can find it here. Dave

So what ground has this case lost in your mind, because it seems in reality-land the opposite is true.

FL said:

So what ground has this case lost in your mind, because it seems in reality-land the opposite is true.

The Montana Law Review spells out all the diverse areas in which Judge Jones missed out and messed up. No use rewriting the entire article. Kitzmiller is full of holes. The fact is that the prideful chairman of the Dover School board insisted on "mandatory" teacher readings. He messed up, and his mess led to defeat. He merely needed to back down from that position, and say "optional" and maybe even specify "after-hours" to sweeten the pot. Better still, he really needed to adopt the exact language of the Louisiana SEA and leave it at that for a few years. He did have options--very good ones, in fact. He merely needed to dial down his prideful ambitions to be "The Big Man Who Defeated Evolution in America", and then he would have gotten a win. (Or more likely, the ACLU would simply back off, tail appropriately placed between legs, and go silent like they did in LA. No contest.) FL

FL said:

So what ground has this case lost in your mind, because it seems in reality-land the opposite is true.

The Montana Law Review spells out all the diverse areas in which Judge Jones missed out and messed up. No use rewriting the entire article. Kitzmiller is full of holes. The fact is that the prideful chairman of the Dover School board insisted on "mandatory" teacher readings. He messed up, and his mess led to defeat. He merely needed to back down from that position, and say "optional" and maybe even specify "after-hours" to sweeten the pot. Better still, he really needed to adopt the exact language of the Louisiana SEA and leave it at that for a few years. He did have options--very good ones, in fact. He merely needed to dial down his prideful ambitions to be "The Big Man Who Defeated Evolution in America", and then he would have gotten a win. (Or more likely, the ACLU would simply back off, tail appropriately placed between legs, and go silent like they did in LA. No contest.) FL

FL said:

So what ground has this case lost in your mind, because it seems in reality-land the opposite is true.

The Montana Law Review spells out all the diverse areas in which Judge Jones missed out and messed up. No use rewriting the entire article. Kitzmiller is full of holes. The fact is that the prideful chairman of the Dover School board insisted on "mandatory" teacher readings. He messed up, and his mess led to defeat. He merely needed to back down from that position, and say "optional" and maybe even specify "after-hours" to sweeten the pot. Better still, he really needed to adopt the exact language of the Louisiana SEA and leave it at that for a few years. He did have options--very good ones, in fact. He merely needed to dial down his prideful ambitions to be "The Big Man Who Defeated Evolution in America", and then he would have gotten a win. (Or more likely, the ACLU would simply back off, tail appropriately placed between legs, and go silent like they did in LA. No contest.) FL

You gotta love how FL has turned the demise of ID into a great victory. That's not easy to do!

FL said: The Montana Law Review spells out all the diverse areas in which Judge Jones missed out and messed up.

He merely needed to back down from that position, and say "optional" and maybe even specify "after-hours" to sweeten the pot. Better still, he really needed to adopt the exact language of the Louisiana SEA and leave it at that for a few years.

He did have options--very good ones, in fact. He merely needed to dial down his prideful ambitions to be "The Big Man Who Defeated Evolution in America", and then he would have gotten a win.

tomh said: You gotta love how FL has turned the demise of ID into a great victory. That's not easy to do!

FL said:

So what ground has this case lost in your mind, because it seems in reality-land the opposite is true.

The Montana Law Review spells out all the diverse areas in which Judge Jones missed out and messed up. No use rewriting the entire article. Kitzmiller is full of holes.

The fact is that the prideful chairman of the Dover School board insisted on "mandatory" teacher readings. He messed up, and his mess led to defeat. He merely needed to back down from that position, and say "optional" and maybe even specify "after-hours" to sweeten the pot.

Better still, he really needed to adopt the exact language of the Louisiana SEA and leave it at that for a few years.

He did have options--very good ones, in fact. He merely needed to dial down his prideful ambitions to be "The Big Man Who Defeated Evolution in America", and then he would have gotten a win. (Or more likely, the ACLU would simply back off, tail appropriately placed between legs, and go silent like they did in LA. No contest.)

The board wanted students to hear a warning label on evolution and get told about Of Pandas and People.

No, FL I can't speak for others but I don't agree.

Let's continute a bit more. The fact is that whatever you are counting on Kitzmiller to establish or reinforce Darwinian dominance in 2011, such goals are effectively negated by the huge victories in Louisiana and Texas.

You ask, (disingenuously), "What ground has been lost since Kitzmiller?"

Well, there's one clear, imposing answer to start you off: "Biology teachers in LA can (carefully) do, exactly what that evolution-fanatic Judge Jones said the Dover teachers cannot do."

For you Pandas, that IS lost ground. Absolutely. You griped about it--oh you griped till the cows came home--but you were perfectly helpless to fight back. Your Kitzmiller meant nothing, a perfect zero, against the LSEA. Even today, that's true.

And now you are constantly haunted with the very real specter that other states, other voters, may someday choose the LA option for themselves.

Again, are we agreed on that much?

FL

Oh goody. I can't wait until the very first creationist tries to teach creationism in direct violation of the FIrst Amendment and the rulings by the supreme court. I just can't wait to hear them use the defense that this measly illegal legislation is supposed to somehow make their illegal activity somehow magically legal. This could spell the end for all of these pesky legislative efforts.

Even better, I can't wait for the first Buddist, Muslim or Hindu to teach their creation myths as science using exactly the same supposed justification. That would be great.

It's all fun and games until someone gets hurt, then it's freakin hilarious.

FL said:

The board wanted students to hear a warning label on evolution and get told about Of Pandas and People.

The board wanted to REQUIRE students etc etc etc. They wanted to REQUIRE their teachers--all of them--to do the warning label and tell their students about OPAP. That stubborn, prideful insistence on making their stuff MANDATORY for their teachers, made them into easy targets for lawsuits. Their eventual loss was guaranteed because of it. Their pride, their refusal to listen, led to their fall. Duh. *** In contrast, the Louisiana Science Education doesn't mandate or require any teacher to do any such things as the mistaken Dover Board required. Everything is optional with LSEA, and those teachers who do decide to teach Science Education instead of Darwin Indoctrination, are required to jump through multiple official chain-of-command hoops, and justify any critical-thinking approaches they want to implement. Which left the mangy-hide NCSE and ACLU totally wrapped up, tied up, tangled up, knocked out, unable to set even one stinking primate foot inside any courthouse. The difference in approaches, and outcomes, between Dover and LA could not be any clearer. Wouldn't you agree? FL

FL said: The Montana Law Review spells out all the diverse areas in which Judge Jones missed out and messed up.

So if the LSEA does not mandate teachers to teach Creationism, or even "teach the controversy," i.e., spread lies about science, then what good is it?

It's a useless drain on taxpayer money.

There is an important issue that FL and his hyper-delusional fantasies overlook. It is absolutely impossible to teach ID/creationism or use ID/creationist “arguments” against evolution without totally misrepresenting and mangling the science. Persistent incompetence is a justifiable cause for not hiring or for terminating a teacher’s contract.

It wouldn’t matter if politicians want to protect creationist teachers from being punished for teaching ID/creationism. These politicians would have to pass additional laws that would protect incompetent teachers from deliberately teaching science that is dead wrong. They would actually have to specify in the law that it is perfectly okay to teach pseudo-science as though it is real science, and that such incompetent teachers cannot be fired for misrepresenting science.

I would like to see a bunch of politicians attempt to pull that one off. I have no doubt that such stupidity exists in politics. And FL is a glaring reminder of just how stupid some community members could be in attempting to sabotage the educations of other people’s children by teaching stuff that is dead wrong.

And I would also like to see IDiots argue that it is proper to teach pseudo-science and deliberately misrepresent science. That would be a good litmus test to determine the competence of a prospective teacher.

Any teacher who thinks he/she can defend the pseudo-science of ID/creationism should be made to do so in front of a panel of competent, knowledgeable scientists and board-certified teachers. And any such teacher who truly believes he/she can do this should no longer be considered as a prospective teacher. Don’t hire them. And fire any of them for refusing to achieve a level of competence necessary to teach science properly.

Universities and their departments of education have to start weeding out the kind of ID/creationist incompetence that seeps through by keeping its head down. Make them pass rigorous exams that test conceptual understanding. Make ID/creationists squeal and squirm and attempt to fake understanding just a FL does when confronted with a concept test or with having to articulate ID/creationist pseudo-science.

Make them articulate ID/creationist pseudo-science concepts and then make them demonstrate how none of it conflicts with or misrepresents real scientific concepts. I claim that there isn’t an ID/creationist on this planet that can do it.

You simply cannot understand real science and think that ID/creationist pseudo-science is a legitimate alternative. If you think ID/creationism is valid, you don’t understand real science, and we can demonstrate that fact quite easily. I say it can be done; we have already done it on this site a number of times with these trolls. And FL already knows the pain of such scrutiny. He has flunked every time, even as he attempts to maintain his uncomprehending, slack-jawed, sectarian erection for proselytizing. Nobody would ever think of hiring him to teach anything; the glaring stupidity is just too obvious.

Mike Elzinga said: You simply cannot understand real science and think that ID/creationist pseudo-science is a legitimate alternative. If you think ID/creationism is valid, you don’t understand real science, and we can demonstrate that fact quite easily. I say it can be done; we have already done it on this site a number of times with these trolls. And FL already knows the pain of such scrutiny. He has flunked every time, even as he attempts to maintain his uncomprehending, slack-jawed, sectarian erection for proselytizing. Nobody would ever think of hiring him to teach anything; the glaring stupidity is just too obvious.

FL said: Everything is optional with LSEA, and those teachers who do decide to teach Science Education instead of Darwin Indoctrination, are required to jump through multiple official chain-of-command hoops, and justify any critical-thinking approaches they want to implement. Which left the mangy-hide NCSE and ACLU totally wrapped up, tied up, tangled up, knocked out, unable to set even one stinking primate foot inside any courthouse. The difference in approaches, and outcomes, between Dover and LA could not be any clearer. Wouldn't you agree?

eric said:

FL said: Everything is optional with LSEA, and those teachers who do decide to teach Science Education instead of Darwin Indoctrination, are required to jump through multiple official chain-of-command hoops, and justify any critical-thinking approaches they want to implement. Which left the mangy-hide NCSE and ACLU totally wrapped up, tied up, tangled up, knocked out, unable to set even one stinking primate foot inside any courthouse. The difference in approaches, and outcomes, between Dover and LA could not be any clearer. Wouldn't you agree?

It never ceases to amaze me that you consider this a victory. You passed a law which you think might hypothetically allow teaching creationism, but nobody actually uses it to teach creationism. And you think this is a win for you guys?

I'd agree that in the Dover case where creationists tried to teach creationism, the court ruled it unconstitutional. And that in LA classes where creationists don't try to teach it, the ACLU doesn't mount a case. Which is as it should be.

FL said: Let's continute a bit more. The fact is that whatever you are counting on Kitzmiller to establish or reinforce Darwinian dominance in 2011, such goals are effectively negated by the huge victories in Louisiana and Texas.

You ask, (disingenuously), "What ground has been lost since Kitzmiller?"

FL: At any rate, the Kitzmiller Decision been sliced and diced so thoroughly, there’s not much chance of it recovering all the ground that it has lost.

Robin: And yet I have to ask, what ground to you imagine has been lost? Dover is certainly not thinking of adopting ID again - in fact the opposite would be true at this current date as they not only have solid, evolutionary-based science standards, but they now offer a comparative religions class as an elective. So what ground has this case lost in your mind, because it seems in reality-land the opposite is true.

Well, there's one clear, imposing answer to start you off: "Biology teachers in LA can (carefully) do, exactly what that evolution-fanatic Judge Jones said the Dover teachers cannot do."

For you Pandas, that IS lost ground. Absolutely. You griped about it--oh you griped till the cows came home--but you were perfectly helpless to fight back. Your Kitzmiller meant nothing, a perfect zero, against the LSEA. Even today, that's true.

And now you are constantly haunted with the very real specter that other states, other voters, may someday choose the LA option for themselves.

Again, are we agreed on that much? FL

The only kind of people who would even consider hiring FL to teach anything would be other Young Earth Creationists who hate the truth, reality and science as much as he does.

But Floyd - you yourself have noted that neither Texas nor Louisiana can use the LSEA to actually…you know…teach creationism or ID. They can’t even be used to poke holes in evolution.

FL said: Robin says,

But Floyd - you yourself have noted that neither Texas nor Louisiana can use the LSEA to actually…you know…teach creationism or ID. They can’t even be used to poke holes in evolution.

That's why you guys fought Louisiana and Texas, honestly. You didn't want any biology teachers deviating from that good ole cann'd spam'd Darwin Dogma in the biology textbooks. Unfortunately for you (but fortunately for science), you lost. FL

FL said:

The only kind of people who would even consider hiring FL to teach anything would be other Young Earth Creationists who hate the truth, reality and science as much as he does.

You're probably right, but.... Would you be badly offended if I took that as a compliment? FL

FL said: Robin says,

But Floyd - you yourself have noted that neither Texas nor Louisiana can use the LSEA to actually…you know…teach creationism or ID. They can’t even be used to poke holes in evolution.

First sentence is accurate, of course. But the second sentence is yours, and where did you get it from? After all, subjecting assorted evolutionary claims to critical-thinking processes is bound to produce perforations perforce.

The fact is that maybe a few Standard Canned Darwin Textbook claims might git all poked-up in front of the high school science students. Doubts...evil, nagging DOUBTS about evolution...may well enter the minds of the young future scientists.

That's why you guys fought Louisiana and Texas, honestly. You didn't want any biology teachers deviating from that good ole cann'd spam'd Darwin Dogma in the biology textbooks.

Unfortunately for you (but fortunately for science), you lost. FL

FL said:

So what ground has this case lost in your mind, because it seems in reality-land the opposite is true.

The Montana Law Review spells out all the diverse areas in which Judge Jones missed out and messed up. No use rewriting the entire article. Kitzmiller is full of holes. The fact is that the prideful chairman of the Dover School board insisted on "mandatory" teacher readings. He messed up, and his mess led to defeat. He merely needed to back down from that position, and say "optional" and maybe even specify "after-hours" to sweeten the pot. Better still, he really needed to adopt the exact language of the Louisiana SEA and leave it at that for a few years. He did have options--very good ones, in fact. He merely needed to dial down his prideful ambitions to be "The Big Man Who Defeated Evolution in America", and then he would have gotten a win. (Or more likely, the ACLU would simply back off, tail appropriately placed between legs, and go silent like they did in LA. No contest.) FL

At this season we should all count our blessings, and express our humble gratitude to the Ultimate Source of all such blessings.

As this thread so well demonstrates, all honest Christians must thank the Lord for sending Special Angels, such as FL, IBIG, Andersen, Henry, AC, and others to show us how NOT to act as Christians.

Without their untiring efforts, some of us might occasionally be tempted to use ridicule, threats, and anger against others of God's children, and attack those who strive to reveal the real wonders of God's Creation.

But with FL and the others as glaring examples of how NOT to be a Christian, and how NOT to represent the faith-- and how NOT to lead others to honor and respect the Prince of Peace-- we have constant reminders to keep us from falling into their miasma of prideful ignorance and spiteful attacks against those truly blessed with wisdom and insight into God's natural world.

FL said: Robin says,

But Floyd - you yourself have noted that neither Texas nor Louisiana can use the LSEA to actually…you know…teach creationism or ID. They can’t even be used to poke holes in evolution.

First sentence is accurate, of course. But the second sentence is yours, and where did you get it from? After all, subjecting assorted evolutionary claims to critical-thinking processes is bound to produce perforations perforce.

5 C. A teacher shall teach the material presented in the standard textbook 6 supplied by the school system and thereafter may use supplemental textbooks 7 and other instructional materials to help students understand, analyze, critique, 8 and review scientific theories in an objective manner, as permitted by the city, 9 parish, or other local public school board unless otherwise prohibited by the 10 State Board of Elementary and Secondary Education. 11 D. This Section shall not be construed to promote any religious doctrine, 12 promote discrimination for or against a particular set of religious beliefs, or 13 promote discrimination for or against religion or nonreligion.

The fact is that maybe a few Standard Canned Darwin Textbook claims might git all poked-up in front of the high school science students. Doubts...evil, nagging DOUBTS about evolution...may well enter the minds of the young future scientists.

That's why you guys fought Louisiana and Texas, honestly. You didn't want any biology teachers deviating from that good ole cann'd spam'd Darwin Dogma in the biology textbooks.

Unfortunately for you (but fortunately for science), you lost. FL

Who was it who, hunkered down in his bunker, his capital in ruins over his head, his enemies shelling his last fanatical defenders, spent his final days ordering around nonexistent divisions and predicting final victory with the advent of secret miracle weapons? Oh, and blaming his generals for screwing up and losing battles (like FL blames the Dover board). And calling retreats "strategic shortening of lines."

Dang, I can't think of who that was.

Gary_Hurd said: That was a very welcome day. A lot of people worked very hard toward that event. Since then ID creationism has not managed to officially infiltrate a single school district.

Steve P. said:

Gary_Hurd said: That was a very welcome day. A lot of people worked very hard toward that event. Since then ID creationism has not managed to officially infiltrate a single school district.

What a victory it was for design deniers! The State to the rescue. Evolution is saved. Protected. Insulated. All warm and fuzzy. But then that is all evolution ever was. Now a bit more lukewarm; but still fuzzy.

Steve P. said:

Gary_Hurd said: That was a very welcome day. A lot of people worked very hard toward that event. Since then ID creationism has not managed to officially infiltrate a single school district.

What a victory it was for design deniers! The State to the rescue. Evolution is saved. Protected. Insulated. All warm and fuzzy. But then that is all evolution ever was. Now a bit more lukewarm; but still fuzzy.

Steve P. said:

Gary_Hurd said: That was a very welcome day. A lot of people worked very hard toward that event. Since then ID creationism has not managed to officially infiltrate a single school district.

The State to the rescue. Evolution is saved. Protected. Insulated. All warm and fuzzy. But then that is all evolution ever was. Now a bit more lukewarm; but still fuzzy.

Steve P. said: All warm and fuzzy. But then that is all evolution ever was. Now a bit more lukewarm; but still fuzzy.

Dover was supposed to be Evolution’s Waterloo.

FL said: Meanwhile, here's a nice Christmas education story, from Louisiana, just for Stanton. And of course, Merry Christmas, (as in Jesus Christ who for some reason doesn't cuss like you do). http://video.msnbc.msn.com/nightly-news/45788053/#null FL

FL said:

Dover was supposed to be Evolution’s Waterloo.

Simply shift the geography, that;s all. Dover = / = Evolution Waterloo. Louisiana = Evolution Waterloo. Fixed!

Meanwhile, here's a nice Christmas education story, from Louisiana, just for Stanton. And of course, Merry Christmas, (as in Jesus Christ who for some reason doesn't cuss like you do).

SWT said: Of course, the story (a) has nothing to do with Christmas, (b) doesn't discuss any changes to the science curriculum, and (c) doesn't address post-graduation outcomes such as effects on admission to and performance in college-level STEM programs.

Of course, the story (a) has nothing to do with Christmas, (b) doesn’t discuss any changes to the science curriculum, and (c) doesn’t address post-graduation outcomes such as effects on admission to and performance in college-level STEM programs.

Hey, one more thing: the phrase Cussing For Jesus(TM) just came to mind.

No need to belabor it today, (it's still the holidays!), but it might come up in future posts.

FL

Flawd the Damnd said: the phrase Cussing For Jesus(TM) just came to mind.

FL the Asshole said: Hey, one more thing: the phrase Cussing For Jesus(TM) just came to mind. No need to belabor it today, (it's still the holidays!), but it might come up in future posts. FL

FL said:

Of course, the story (a) has nothing to do with Christmas, (b) doesn’t discuss any changes to the science curriculum, and (c) doesn’t address post-graduation outcomes such as effects on admission to and performance in college-level STEM programs.

Well, let's see... (a) There was a tiny little "Dec.25" attached to the story, (in fact, it's still there, when you put the arrow on the thumbnail entitled "Louisiana Schools Make the Grade"). So it's clear that the MSNBC story aired on Christmas Day. That's all I meant.

(b) Quite true, but that's not why I offered the story. Stanton's favorite schtick is that Louisiana is one of the worst school systems in America, (and therefore the LSEA must somehow be a bad thing.)

Now on the Bathroom Wall, we've already seen that the passage of the LSEA has not contributed in any way to Louisiana's generally poor reputation, based on ACT science scores for the past three years.

But now that Louisiana is clearly moving close to the National Average in its grad rates, I think that Stanton, (and a few others too), need to be aware of the new development. I'm sure they will welcome the news.

The fact is that providing after-school "Re-Take" courses, and providing parents with instant "Online Score-Checking" of their kid's homework and tests, works just as well for Science classes as it does for English classes. And of course, the LSEA will help those Science students to develop genuine critical-thinking skills as part of their science education, so they can do science better.

Win-Win situation for all of us, wouldn't you agree?

(c) If you're a high-schooler getting B's and C's instead of D's and F's because of the new Louisiana changes, your chances of making it into college at all (and especially into biology, physical sciences, and STEM) would go up rather significantly, I would think.

So, all in all, it's simply a good news story for Panda People to be aware of. Meanwhile, Merry Christmas again, (and make no mistake: it's Christ or nothing)!!

BTW, FL, tell us again why we should trust your assessments in the first place:

After all, you've told us that you believe science is really an evil pagan religion that worships Evolution as some sort of evil demon-god, that science classrooms are actually a kind of church, and that Charles Darwin is a bible.

You've also demonstrated to us that your method of "teaching children critical-thinking skills about science" is to forcefeed them lies that evolution is failing, that scientists are evil and hate God, that science can not be trusted whenever it contradicts your interpretation of the Bible, and that children need to believe that GODDIDIT as according to your interpretation of the Book of Genesis, or they will be killed by God, then tortured forever in Hell at His hands for your amusement for all eternity.

FL said:

Of course, the story (a) has nothing to do with Christmas ...

Well, let's see... (a) There was a tiny little "Dec.25" attached to the story, (in fact, it's still there, when you put the arrow on the thumbnail entitled "Louisiana Schools Make the Grade"). So it's clear that the MSNBC story aired on Christmas Day. That's all I meant.

ID died in Dover. I got interested in the debate in the lead up to the court case. People here were probably too close to the case to remember. At the time there was in the chattering classes some sympathy and debate about ID. A lot of people that were not fundies (and even some agnostics) read the books and became supporters. There was debate in the more serious papers (eg SMH in Australia).

The main complaint here in Panda's was the the reporting was very much he said/she said. Then Dover started and after reading the transcripts everything changed. Except for the wingnuts and the creationists, ID got dropped like a ton of bricks and it became a laughing stock.

MichaelJ said: ID died in Dover. I got interested in the debate in the lead up to the court case. People here were probably too close to the case to remember. At the time there was in the chattering classes some sympathy and debate about ID. A lot of people that were not fundies (and even some agnostics) read the books and became supporters. There was debate in the more serious papers (eg SMH in Australia). The main complaint here in Panda's was the the reporting was very much he said/she said. Then Dover started and after reading the transcripts everything changed. Except for the wingnuts and the creationists, ID got dropped like a ton of bricks and it became a laughing stock.