Matt, When you used "encyclopedic" you were spot on target. And with any encyclopedic effort there are, as you point out, some weak points because the author is forced well beyond their personal expertise, or even interests. I thought the opening section on the origin of life was weak, and would have been better left off.
I also had a few questions about the flat fish. I have dissected dozens of specimens from a half dozen species. They all share lateralized skeletal growth, with even the ribs, pararibs, and lateral spinal processes asymmetric. Just checking a California halibut; the half dozen bones of the mouth are symmetric, but everything from there back to the "tail" vertebra are lateralized. The most dramatic are the cranial bones of course. There are fossil data where this growth does not produce fully lateralized adults. I think this is what Schwab meant. But, it is a great book beautifully illustrated.
A collected volume that does as good a job for teeth is Teaford et al. Being the product of many authors, nearly every chapter is the product of an expert. The downside here is they are not that inclined to make it easy for general interest readers to follow. I personally would have liked a chapter on baleen whale evolution. But, I suppose one could argue that that is tooth loss.
Teaford, Mark F., Moya Meredith Smith, and Mark W.J. Ferguson 2006 “Development, Function and Evolution of Teeth” Cambridge University Press
air · 28 July 2012
As I recall from an ancient Scientific American article, flounders (I think) have opposite handedness in their asymmetry on opposite sides of the Pacific. stop. google....google aha
Air
DS · 28 July 2012
One of the best types of evidence for evolution is the diversity of life. Creationists who live under a rock seem to be under the impression that there are only about one thousand species that were on the ark and have never changed. The actual number is about two million and that's probably only a small fraction of the species that actually exist and an even smaller fraction of all of the species that have ever existed. There are some truly bizarre species out there. This diversity is exactly what is expected from over four billion years of evolution. If all of these species were created, they were created by an incompetent tinkerer, completely lacking in imagination, who got it wrong most of the time and got is horribly wrong most of the rest of the time. Why anyone would choose to believe such a depressing scenario is not entirely clear. Historical contingency and developmental constraint would seem to be a much better explanation for the diversity observed anyway.
Gary_Hurd · 28 July 2012
air said:
As I recall from an ancient Scientific American article, flounders (I think) have opposite handedness in their asymmetry on opposite sides of the Pacific. stop. google....google
aha
Air
There are species that have rare "reverse handedness" within the same populations. And IIRC, some that are nearly 50-50.
qilong · 29 July 2012
Just a clarification:
All flatfish swim in the same manner as typical fish due: through bi-lateral undulation of the body and tail (or just tail). Flatfish as adults merely turn their body sideways, so that the same motion is just performed 90 degrees around (just like the rest of the body).
Chris Lawson · 29 July 2012
@air,
Shouldn't flounders have finnedness?
Chris Lawson · 29 July 2012
Knot per hour could be a unit of acceleration, though. Right?
Scott F · 29 July 2012
Rather OT, but I recently heard a local news reporter describe the extent of a wild fire as some impressive number of "square acres". While "knots per hour" is a perfectly good unit of acceleration, I wondered what 4th dimension a "square acre" might involve. :-)
apokryltaros · 29 July 2012
Chris Lawson said:
@air,
Shouldn't flounders have finnedness?
Technically yes, but, with flounders, it should be eyedness.
Robert Byers said:
Eyes are a great example for creationists in demonstrating the unlikelyness of evolution and eye investigation could, based on creationist presumptions, lead to healing of eyes.
'Unlikely' as in 'had to fall together all at once PURELY by chance !!1!!!1!!!' - a model no one but IDiots and creationists even bring up.
Good thing that - IN REALITY - evolution is NOT pure chance. Variants that work tend to stick around, while less effective variants tend to go extinct.
End result - the APPEARANCE of deliberate design.
Evolutionary explanations - being REALITY BASED - have a far better chance of coming up with something useful than the glorification of willful stupidity known as 'creationism'.
The sole creationist presumption is 'AN UNKNOWABLE BEING DIDIT !!!1!!!!1!!!!
Now sit down, shut up, and stop asking questions !!!!!'
Its not a dazzling array of types of eyes or different eye types for solution to problems.
It is as was said largely about compound eye type or camera type.
Very limited options after these foundations.
If evolution had been at work forever it wouldn't be that way.
How the frell would YOU know ?
Evolution has not been at work 'forever' - merely a few hundreds of millions of years.
Evolution can be very conservative - whatever works is retained. The only way a system would be replaced is either if a BETTER system came up, or an alternate system got extremely lucky for a very long time (ie, neutral evolution)
Such convergence would be unlikely .
The great array would of canceled out these two simple foundations.
From what orifice did you pull that idea ?
'Convergence' would be unlikely if all eyes developed independently; good thing that in reality we know of something called COMMON DESCENT. Descendants tend to have eyes very similar in structure to their ancestors.
The other diversity is minor changes after the main structure is established.
In other words - EVOLUTION WORKS.
eyes show a common design from a common designer and not from evolutions mind and hand.
RiiIIiiIIIIiiiight ! Upon what do you base that silly assertion ?
The 'common designer' being the laws of physics, variations (mutations), and filtering selection.
In other words - EVOLUTION.
most really do just have two eyes as if from a common blueprint.
Also what you'd expect from common descent and evolution as well.
i didn't know about some of these options in how some eyes or eye sensitive operations do occur in nature.
There is room here to figure out bigger equations for how eyesight works and this might lead to healing eyesight.
How eyesight works is fully explainable via evolution - the relatedness of the proteins used in photoreception, the cascades of protein activations, etc.
And just HOW, exactly, does screaming 'GOD DIDIT !!!!!!1!1!!!' help figure out anything at all ?
Believing eyes are all evolved types for every occasion denies common laws to eyesight and healing as i see it.
Those 'common laws to eyesight' are known as the laws of physics (ie, OPTICS), and biology must adhere to them.
In other words, all those eye types are fully explainable via evolution - variant eyes that don't work very tell tend to go extinct, while those that work tend to remain in the population.
A good case where different foundations (creationist/Evolutionist) would lead to different confidence in seeking progress in healing eyesight.
Creationists don't seek anything - since they've deluded themselves into 'thinking' that they have all the answers, they prefer to sit on their rumps and mumble about how great their unknowable Magical Sky Pixie is.
Science-based endeavors have always paid off eventually; when was the last time a magic-based endeavor ever yielded anything but ignorance, arrogance, and strife ?
How, EXACTLY, would creationist 'explanations' or 'understandings' help anything at all ?
Blubbering "IT WUZ DEEZINED !!1!!!1!!!" doesn't explain anything at all unless you know something about the motives and methods of designer.
And your 'designer' is conveniently unknowable ...
Matt Young said:
Please do not feed the Byers troll.
Thanks, Matt. I suggest that this guidance is a rough paraphrase of Titus 3 (ESV):
10 As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, 11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.
dorght · 31 July 2012
I'm in the middle of reading this book. I am an engineer, however, not a research biologist. Very interesting with a few caveats.
Terms and concepts sometimes aren't explained until pages later, a good editor would have helped. Having read "Animal Eyes" by Land almost seems a necessary primer because this book jumps in with both feet.
The authors are very good at stating that when modern examples of primitive creatures are used the subject creatures are millions/billions of years evolutionarily removed. An author (from style differences I think it is just one) falls down, however, by repeatedly phrasing evolutionary changes as if it was an active individual choice. I know it is easy short hand language but it irritates my to read that some species had to change this, or they developed this trait or structure to deal with some new environment. Wish I had the book with me to quote some examples of this. I've not finished the book. There is a lot of very interesting information about eyes of differing evolutionary stages but I'm not sure all the factoids are neatly tied into supporting the premise of the title.
Tenncrain · 2 August 2012
LibLight. said:
Explanation of diversity:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlJiZiL3D-Y&feature=plcp
Other evolution vs creation lectures 101-108:
http://www.youtube.com/user/OfficialADTVChannel/videos?sort=dd&view=0&page=14
LibLight, we look forward to the 'scientists' at Amazing Discoveries as they publish the results of their science experiments in mainstream science peer-review journals. We look forward to Amazing Discoveries presenting their findings at mainstream science meetings/seminars. LibLight, as you may know, science is tentative. Science is more like a journey toward the truth as opposed to an arrival at the truth. If your 'scientists' provide the scientific evidence that sways the scientific consensus, anti-evolution views could supplement evolution or even make evolution go the way of the Dodo bird.
Alas, a few of us on on this Pandas Thumb forum - myself included - happen to be former young-earth creationists. Most of us ex-YECs are quite familiar with Amazing Discoveries, AIG, ICR, etc. I grew up on YEC books like The Genesis Flood (Whitcomb & Morris). Even today as an ex-YEC, I often go to ICR's website to find old Impact articles I remember from my younger years; back then I eagerly awaited Impact articles in the mailbox.
To be sure, former YECs sometimes drop their YEC views reluctantly due to spiritual pain. Some former YECs remain Christians (click here), others leave the faith feeling they were taken for a ride by both pseudoscience and bad theology. In the end, many former YECs have concluded that young-earth creationism serves little purpose other than to provide hollow theological comfort. YECism is virtually useless in the real world, as ex-YECs like Glenn Morton (link here) painfully discovered.
Henry · 4 August 2012
Carl Drews said:
Matt Young said:
Please do not feed the Byers troll.
Thanks, Matt. I suggest that this guidance is a rough paraphrase of Titus 3 (ESV):
10 As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, 11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.
KJV gives a different picture
10
A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject;
11
Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
Dave Luckett · 4 August 2012
Yes, Henry, the KJV version was written in Jacobean English. What a surprise.
Are you one of the extreme loons who think that God talks Jacobean English and the KJV is the true inerrant Bible, on account of you say it is?
Henry · 5 August 2012
Dave Luckett said:
Yes, Henry, the KJV version was written in Jacobean English. What a surprise.
Are you one of the extreme loons who think that God talks Jacobean English and the KJV is the true inerrant Bible, on account of you say it is?
No, I am not.
Dave Luckett · 5 August 2012
All right, Henry. But here's an interesting exercise. The original meaning of the Greek noun "hairetikos" (singular, masculine, accusative) is derived from the verb "haireo", which means "to choose for one's self, to prefer." That is, "hairetikos" would mean one who chooses to go his own way, by extension, one who is factious, divisive. This is most likely the sense in which the Apostle uses it.
But the word "heretic" came to mean something very different for early seventeenth century Protestants. It meant "one opposed to the established doctrines and authority of the Church".
In your own words, Henry, explain why the translators of the KING JAMES AUTHORISED VERSION of the Bible might want to warn their readers against opposing the doctrines and authority of the (established) Church, rather than using a word that was closer to the Apostle's likely original intention, and didn't carry such, er, additional baggage.
20 Comments
Gary_Hurd · 28 July 2012
Matt, When you used "encyclopedic" you were spot on target. And with any encyclopedic effort there are, as you point out, some weak points because the author is forced well beyond their personal expertise, or even interests. I thought the opening section on the origin of life was weak, and would have been better left off.
I also had a few questions about the flat fish. I have dissected dozens of specimens from a half dozen species. They all share lateralized skeletal growth, with even the ribs, pararibs, and lateral spinal processes asymmetric. Just checking a California halibut; the half dozen bones of the mouth are symmetric, but everything from there back to the "tail" vertebra are lateralized. The most dramatic are the cranial bones of course. There are fossil data where this growth does not produce fully lateralized adults. I think this is what Schwab meant. But, it is a great book beautifully illustrated.
A collected volume that does as good a job for teeth is Teaford et al. Being the product of many authors, nearly every chapter is the product of an expert. The downside here is they are not that inclined to make it easy for general interest readers to follow. I personally would have liked a chapter on baleen whale evolution. But, I suppose one could argue that that is tooth loss.
Teaford, Mark F., Moya Meredith Smith, and Mark W.J. Ferguson
2006 “Development, Function and Evolution of Teeth” Cambridge University Press
air · 28 July 2012
As I recall from an ancient Scientific American article, flounders (I think) have opposite handedness in their asymmetry on opposite sides of the Pacific. stop. google....google
aha
Air
DS · 28 July 2012
One of the best types of evidence for evolution is the diversity of life. Creationists who live under a rock seem to be under the impression that there are only about one thousand species that were on the ark and have never changed. The actual number is about two million and that's probably only a small fraction of the species that actually exist and an even smaller fraction of all of the species that have ever existed. There are some truly bizarre species out there. This diversity is exactly what is expected from over four billion years of evolution. If all of these species were created, they were created by an incompetent tinkerer, completely lacking in imagination, who got it wrong most of the time and got is horribly wrong most of the rest of the time. Why anyone would choose to believe such a depressing scenario is not entirely clear. Historical contingency and developmental constraint would seem to be a much better explanation for the diversity observed anyway.
Gary_Hurd · 28 July 2012
qilong · 29 July 2012
Just a clarification:
All flatfish swim in the same manner as typical fish due: through bi-lateral undulation of the body and tail (or just tail). Flatfish as adults merely turn their body sideways, so that the same motion is just performed 90 degrees around (just like the rest of the body).
Chris Lawson · 29 July 2012
@air,
Shouldn't flounders have finnedness?
Chris Lawson · 29 July 2012
Knot per hour could be a unit of acceleration, though. Right?
Scott F · 29 July 2012
Rather OT, but I recently heard a local news reporter describe the extent of a wild fire as some impressive number of "square acres". While "knots per hour" is a perfectly good unit of acceleration, I wondered what 4th dimension a "square acre" might involve. :-)
apokryltaros · 29 July 2012
Robert Byers · 30 July 2012
This comment has been moved to The Bathroom Wall.
PA Poland · 30 July 2012
Matt Young · 30 July 2012
Please do not feed the Byers troll.
LibLight. · 31 July 2012
Explanation of diversity:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlJiZiL3D-Y&feature=plcp
Other evolution vs creation lectures 101-108:
http://www.youtube.com/user/OfficialADTVChannel/videos?sort=dd&view=0&page=14
Carl Drews · 31 July 2012
dorght · 31 July 2012
I'm in the middle of reading this book. I am an engineer, however, not a research biologist. Very interesting with a few caveats.
Terms and concepts sometimes aren't explained until pages later, a good editor would have helped. Having read "Animal Eyes" by Land almost seems a necessary primer because this book jumps in with both feet.
The authors are very good at stating that when modern examples of primitive creatures are used the subject creatures are millions/billions of years evolutionarily removed. An author (from style differences I think it is just one) falls down, however, by repeatedly phrasing evolutionary changes as if it was an active individual choice. I know it is easy short hand language but it irritates my to read that some species had to change this, or they developed this trait or structure to deal with some new environment. Wish I had the book with me to quote some examples of this.
I've not finished the book. There is a lot of very interesting information about eyes of differing evolutionary stages but I'm not sure all the factoids are neatly tied into supporting the premise of the title.
Tenncrain · 2 August 2012
Henry · 4 August 2012
Dave Luckett · 4 August 2012
Yes, Henry, the KJV version was written in Jacobean English. What a surprise.
Are you one of the extreme loons who think that God talks Jacobean English and the KJV is the true inerrant Bible, on account of you say it is?
Henry · 5 August 2012
Dave Luckett · 5 August 2012
All right, Henry. But here's an interesting exercise. The original meaning of the Greek noun "hairetikos" (singular, masculine, accusative) is derived from the verb "haireo", which means "to choose for one's self, to prefer." That is, "hairetikos" would mean one who chooses to go his own way, by extension, one who is factious, divisive. This is most likely the sense in which the Apostle uses it.
But the word "heretic" came to mean something very different for early seventeenth century Protestants. It meant "one opposed to the established doctrines and authority of the Church".
In your own words, Henry, explain why the translators of the KING JAMES AUTHORISED VERSION of the Bible might want to warn their readers against opposing the doctrines and authority of the (established) Church, rather than using a word that was closer to the Apostle's likely original intention, and didn't carry such, er, additional baggage.