New book on understanding evolution

Posted 15 April 2014 by

I occasionally get books for review unsolicited, and many of them are not worth noticing. However, Kostas Kampourakis' _Understanding Evolution_ is a wonderful resource for students of all kinds, including biology students. 9781107034914.jpg Kampourakis, a philosopher at Geneva, has compiled and discussed sensibly a range of topics concerning evolution. He begins with the conceptual difficulties people have in understanding the evolutionary process, and why. In chapter 1, he discusses how we know about evolution, what questions it answers, and considers two cases that are close to home: domestication and epidemiology, the evolution of disease. The evolutionary questions are about why living things evolved the way they did, about speciation, the process of evolving new species, and the hypotheses that these require. He talks about explanation (especially "[inference to the best explanation](http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/abduction/)") and the use of scientific method in evolutionary biology. The sections on domestication of animals and on epidemiology are satisfyingly complete. Chapter 2 covers religious objections to evolution, including, of course, creationism and intelligent design. He discusses the arguments made by ID, especially in the context of atheism and agnosticism. Arguments from design in nature are expounded and given a thorough treatment, including "artifact thinking" and complexity. The he discusses world views in conflict, especially relating to Richard Dawkins' views, and then more widely the views of both theist and atheist scientists. Gould's "nonoverlapping magisteria" and Simon Conway Morris' inevitability thesis are also reviewed. There is a nice discussion of the differences between knowing and believing and various kinds of methodological and metaphysical naturalisms. Chapter 3 is titled "Conceptual difficulties to understanding evolution". Here he discusses psychological essentialism in detail, and the "design stance" that Dennett identified. The problems of conceptual change, which I have published on myself, are then discussed. An example he uses is the shift from geocentric thinking to heliocentric thinking, and it is a good case study. The discussion on essentialism and design thinking, especially of artifacts, appeals to the psychological literature in detail. Chapter 4 gives a complete and up to date account of how Darwin himself came to his theories. In particular he discusses how Darwin thought varieties became species, and gives a nice timeline of Darwin's intellectual development. The chapter concludes with a discussion of how scientists and the religious reacted to the _Origin_. Chapter 5 is about common ancestry. Usually books of this type focus upon natural selection, as if that were where Darwin's originality lay. Kampourakis knows that Darwin's true novelty lay in this idea instead. He explains how genealogical thinking allows us to reconstruct and classify the history of nature, and how thinking in terms of a historical tree of life made all the difference (and was Darwin's first and main problem to solve). There's a good discussion of molecular evolutionary biology here. He gives an account of an often misunderstood notion in biology: homology. This is followed by phylogenetic classification and construction, and a discussion of the question of apparent similarities in biology: convergences (analogy, or homoplasy). Many clear and useful diagrams make the chapter even easier to follow. Then he considers the role of developmental thinking, and how evolution often modifies the timing of development. Chapter 6 is titled "Evolutionary change". It discusses "deep time" and dating of taxa and their divergence. Here he notes that while selectionist accounts are important, much evolution is stochastic, that is, chance. He discusses the difference of within-species evolution (microevolution) and between-species evolution (macroevolution) and gives a good summary of scientific ideas about these, especially the "major transitions" literature. The "selection-against" and "selection-for" distinction is explained here. Speciation and extinction are also explained. Then he returns to the question of inference, in a historical science like evolution. Finally, in his concluding remarks, he discusses what evolution does, and does not explain, especially with respect to ethical and religious questions. Each chapter has a good reading list, and the material is up to date in both science, and philosophy and history. He takes stances throughout but does so explicitly, allowing the reader to decide what to think for themselves. This is an excellent, and long-needed book. The education of evolution in schools is now so poor in many countries, that this can act as both a primer and as an invitation to think further, and I would recommend it unreservedly to anyone who wants to know what evolution really is and means. It is not cheap, but neither is it as expensive as many books of its kind. Buy a copy.

68 Comments

DavidK · 15 April 2014

Sounds like an excellent book worth reading, but it's awfully pricy ($81 HB, $31 PP). I'm sure the dishonesty institute will soon pan it.

John Harshman · 15 April 2014

It sounds interesting, but I think I'll be hoping that the local libraries get a copy. Does it cover conceptual problems in interpreting cladograms? The apparent difficulty of tree-thinking has been a big topic in evolution education for a while, e.g. failing to understand that rotation around nodes makes no change in relationships.

Flint · 15 April 2014

As of today, Amazon says the book has not yet been released. Why the kindle version is $25 more than the paperback is a mystery.

nobodythatmatters · 15 April 2014

i wonder if a deal could be struck with the publisher for a bulk run of this book at a reduced price point. It would be entertaining, and possibly educational, for some wealthy person or organization to get a lot of copies of this book and politely offer them for free to students at religous institutions.

i also think it'd be funny to show up at evangelical churches and politely offer them to the congregation as they enter or leave the church. I wonder how they'll feel about the "both sides" argument in that context.

TomS · 15 April 2014

This is published by the Cambridge University Press, so I tried their website, and you can get some more information here

http://www.cambridge.org/us/academic/subjects/life-sciences/evolutionary-biology/understanding-evolution

You can download the illustrations in the book.

Robert Byers · 15 April 2014

Is this philosopher a biological scientist? Has he done any science with accomplished results.
Its okay to write books on evolution is not a scientist. many creationists write great debunking books on science. However its brought up in the bars about them being not scientists!
The only thing that matters is proving your case.
I would scan such a book, FIRST, for whether he provides biological scientific evidence , ENOUGH, to justify evolution as a theory of science as opposed to a hypothesis/hunch.
He discredits himself right off if he calls opposition to evolution as coming from religious opinions.
its not,. It comes from intellectual opinions with or without a prompting from other presumptions called religion.
It seems like the same old stuff one would read in wiki.
the times have passed for mere repeating of the a tired and failing old script.
Prove your case like real sciences do.
The Philistines are upon you.

phhht · 15 April 2014

Robert Byers said: I would scan such a book, FIRST, for whether he provides biological scientific evidence , ENOUGH, to justify evolution as a theory of science as opposed to a hypothesis/hunch.
phhht said:
Robert Byers said: Evolutionary biology has not shown why its a THEORY as opposed to a hypothesis.
The Theory of Evolution is a theory because it is vast, powerfully explanatory, and extremely well supported with observation and experiment. It explains everything from sickle cell anemia to why speckled moths change color in the presence of coal dust to why the beaks of the Galapagos finches change size to why bees are social insects. Those widely disparate facts, so evidently unrelated on their faces, are all explained by one Theory: the ToE. And it is not only those facts. The ToE explains thousands of other facts which we observe in the real world. There is literally nothing known about living systems which is not illuminated by the ToE. It is a towering work of genius. As always, the loons have nothing but denial. They don't have a unified, self-consistent, testable explanation for anything at all. They can't even say why they believe in gods. All they can do is to deny.

Rolf · 16 April 2014

Robert, do yourself (and us) a favor, please buy the book! Instead of scanning, Will you read, really read and apply whatever intellect you may have to understanding what you read? Do you really have a sufficient background in general science making you capable of proper understanding and assimilation of what's written?

Don't read it only once, the bare minimum is two readings but my experience is that re-reading a book over an extended period of time, there is always something new to be learned. Learning takes an effort! It is your resistance to learning that does the work of teaching you what you read.

If you read with the premise that it is all crap, you are just augmenting the crap you already have far too much of instead of learning.

Robert, The place in heaven you have waiting for you won't be jeopardized by making an effort to learn something you do not like and do not want to believe. Knowing your enemy makes you capable of making valid arguments.

Someday you may grow up an realize how silly you once were...

But that's okay, I still have much more I should learn than what I already learned over 70 years of studying both evolution and creationism.

Peter Moritz · 16 April 2014

"It comes from intellectual opinions with or without a prompting from other presumptions called religion"

Your style of writing as displayed in this one sentence betrays the dearth of intellectual rigour in your thinking - if what you post here can be called thinking at all.

Please be so kind to link to any books by those criticizing evolutionary theory that are not based on religious beliefs. And ID does not count. They threw that cloak of lies away some time ago.

Other than that - your willful ignorance, your opinions based on nothing but misunderstood, half digested information and untruth soaked up with the willingness of one who is too lazy to read and understand the literature that provides simply overwhelming evidence for the process of evolution gets really tiresome.
You are nothing but the ghost of denial...in the face of over one-hundred fifty years of still accumulating evidence from palaeontology, genetics, comparative anatomy, physiology etc. one can only hope that the the thin gruel that supports your existence in the interweb eventually will lead to a vanishing act as in Charles Dickens story.

gnome de net · 16 April 2014

In your own words, Robert,

the times have passed for your mere repeating of your tired and failing old script. Prove your case like real sciences do.

John S. Wilkins · 16 April 2014

John Harshman said: It sounds interesting, but I think I'll be hoping that the local libraries get a copy. Does it cover conceptual problems in interpreting cladograms? The apparent difficulty of tree-thinking has been a big topic in evolution education for a while, e.g. failing to understand that rotation around nodes makes no change in relationships.
Yes, he does. In figure 5.12 he shows the same phylogeny in different arrangements as being equivalent, so that apparent progressions are not to be inferred from one representation. As TomS noted, you can download the figures fromt he website.

Robert Byers · 16 April 2014

phhht said:
Robert Byers said: I would scan such a book, FIRST, for whether he provides biological scientific evidence , ENOUGH, to justify evolution as a theory of science as opposed to a hypothesis/hunch.
phhht said:
Robert Byers said: Evolutionary biology has not shown why its a THEORY as opposed to a hypothesis.
The Theory of Evolution is a theory because it is vast, powerfully explanatory, and extremely well supported with observation and experiment. It explains everything from sickle cell anemia to why speckled moths change color in the presence of coal dust to why the beaks of the Galapagos finches change size to why bees are social insects. Those widely disparate facts, so evidently unrelated on their faces, are all explained by one Theory: the ToE. And it is not only those facts. The ToE explains thousands of other facts which we observe in the real world. There is literally nothing known about living systems which is not illuminated by the ToE. It is a towering work of genius. As always, the loons have nothing but denial. They don't have a unified, self-consistent, testable explanation for anything at all. They can't even say why they believe in gods. All they can do is to deny.
You said nothing but what I've seen said a trillion times. its about evidence for saying evolution is a theory of science. Your just repeating it is a theory backed up with good evidences. first things first. why is evolution a theory of science ? Whats your top three evidences, se excellent, as to qualify evolution as a theory and not just a hypothesis dreamt up in the old days?! Wiki doesn't say either!

Robert Byers · 16 April 2014

Rolf said: Robert, do yourself (and us) a favor, please buy the book! Instead of scanning, Will you read, really read and apply whatever intellect you may have to understanding what you read? Do you really have a sufficient background in general science making you capable of proper understanding and assimilation of what's written? Don't read it only once, the bare minimum is two readings but my experience is that re-reading a book over an extended period of time, there is always something new to be learned. Learning takes an effort! It is your resistance to learning that does the work of teaching you what you read. If you read with the premise that it is all crap, you are just augmenting the crap you already have far too much of instead of learning. Robert, The place in heaven you have waiting for you won't be jeopardized by making an effort to learn something you do not like and do not want to believe. Knowing your enemy makes you capable of making valid arguments. Someday you may grow up an realize how silly you once were... But that's okay, I still have much more I should learn than what I already learned over 70 years of studying both evolution and creationism.
I have read heaps from articulate and otherwise evolutionists on forums galore. I know all this stuff. thats why I hit at deeper assumptions behind it and not just the usual list of proofs. I hit them too. No more philosophers but lets see real science in these fantastic claims of bugs to buffalos or fish to people with fish gills by their ears.

Dave Luckett · 16 April 2014

Three "evidences" says Robert, in his version of English.

One. All living things reproduce with variation, and the variations are themselves heritable. Observed fact.
Two. All variations, however slight, are neutral, advantageous, or disadvantageous. Logically necessary, but also observed fact.
Three. Advantageous variations tend to be selected by the environment (and sometimes by other factors), while neutral ones are not selected and disadvantageous ones tend to be culled. Logically necessary, but also observed fact, confirmed by countless field studies.

The emergent effect of these confirmed, reconfirmed, endlessly repeated observations is necessarily the theory of evolution. That was the evidence that Darwin saw and led, and the necessary logical deduction he made. It was good science then, and still is.

This is somewhat like the Rabbi Hillel's reply when asked to explain the Torah while "he stood on one foot". He said, "That which is hateful to you, do not do to another. The rest is commentary", but he added, "Now go and study".

If Byers actually wanted to know, he'd go and study. He doesn't and he won't, of course.

Richard B. Hoppe · 17 April 2014

It's a textbook, which is why it's expensive.

https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawmSOoisp2Oqk5_gBhZFwlSisb7SMhyTjFs · 17 April 2014

Richard B. Hoppe said: It's a textbook, which is why it's expensive.
I've never understood this argument. It has a limited print run, it's printed on vellum, the publisher invested a shedload in a bunch of expensive books that haven't washed their faces and is repeating the mistake; all seem a more reasonable explanations by comparison.

TomS · 17 April 2014

iSTM that the evidence for evolutionary biology is more accessible to the ordinary person than is the evidence for the heliocentric model of the Solar System. Or the atomic theory of matter.

John Harshman · 17 April 2014

I also recommend another textbook, Tree Thinking, by D.A. Baum and S.D. Smith. Roberts and Company Publishers. ISBN 9781936221165. It would appear to overlap somewhat in subject and treatment, but is focused on teaching phylogenetic systematics. It has quite a bit on how to understand phylogenetic trees, including what can cause people not to understand them.

Tenncrain · 17 April 2014

Robert Byers said: I have read heaps from articulate and otherwise evolutionists on forums galore. I know all this stuff.
Excellent that you finally "know all this stuff" as you yourself say. Now you can finally get around to answering all the questions that you have run away from. Including questions you have avoided for over a year in a half, despite you repeatedly being asked. Click here and here, Byers.

Helena Constantine · 17 April 2014

Robert Byers said: The Philistines are upon you.
The first true thing Byers ever said. How are you coming along with learning Hieroglyphs Bobby? that's what you would have to do before you can make claims that only someone who can read hieroglyphs could make. I understand they have good programs at Brown and Yale if you are in new England.

Helena Constantine · 17 April 2014

Dave Luckett said: Three "evidences" says Robert, in his version of English. One. All living things reproduce with variation, and the variations are themselves heritable. Observed fact. Two. All variations, however slight, are neutral, advantageous, or disadvantageous. Logically necessary, but also observed fact. Three. Advantageous variations tend to be selected by the environment (and sometimes by other factors), while neutral ones are not selected and disadvantageous ones tend to be culled. Logically necessary, but also observed fact, confirmed by countless field studies. The emergent effect of these confirmed, reconfirmed, endlessly repeated observations is necessarily the theory of evolution. That was the evidence that Darwin saw and led, and the necessary logical deduction he made. It was good science then, and still is. This is somewhat like the Rabbi Hillel's reply when asked to explain the Torah while "he stood on one foot". He said, "That which is hateful to you, do not do to another. The rest is commentary", but he added, "Now go and study". If Byers actually wanted to know, he'd go and study. He doesn't and he won't, of course.
No, No!. That doesn't answer Byers at all. You provided three reasons Evolution is a fact. He wants to know why its a theory. Try this, Bobby: 1. It explains all the observed facts of evolution. 2. It makes testable predictions. 3. It is consonantly being modified as new evidence is discovered. Next unanswerable question, Bobby?

phhht · 17 April 2014

Robert Byers said:
Your just repeating it is a theory backed up with good evidences. first things first. why is evolution a theory of science ?
Because it is a comprehensive explanation of an aspect of nature (biology) that is supported by a vast body of empirical evidence. That is what we mean by a theory in science.
Whats your top three evidences, se excellent, as to qualify evolution as a theory and not just a hypothesis dreamt up in the old days?! Wiki doesn't say either!
There are no "top three" pieces of evidence which qualify the Theory of Evolution for its designation as a theory of science. Instead there are hundreds, thousands, hundreds of thousands of such observations. Each and every one is explained by the ToE. One reason the ToE is regarded as a work of genius is because it explains phenomena which appear to be entirely unrelated. Examples include fossil hominid skulls, sickle cell anemia, why speckled moths change color in the presence of coal dust, why the beaks of the Galapagos finches change size, molecular evidence for common ancestry, and myriad other such facts of nature. The ToE explains them.

Robert Byers · 18 April 2014

Helena Constantine said:
Dave Luckett said: Three "evidences" says Robert, in his version of English. One. All living things reproduce with variation, and the variations are themselves heritable. Observed fact. Two. All variations, however slight, are neutral, advantageous, or disadvantageous. Logically necessary, but also observed fact. Three. Advantageous variations tend to be selected by the environment (and sometimes by other factors), while neutral ones are not selected and disadvantageous ones tend to be culled. Logically necessary, but also observed fact, confirmed by countless field studies. The emergent effect of these confirmed, reconfirmed, endlessly repeated observations is necessarily the theory of evolution. That was the evidence that Darwin saw and led, and the necessary logical deduction he made. It was good science then, and still is. This is somewhat like the Rabbi Hillel's reply when asked to explain the Torah while "he stood on one foot". He said, "That which is hateful to you, do not do to another. The rest is commentary", but he added, "Now go and study". If Byers actually wanted to know, he'd go and study. He doesn't and he won't, of course.
No, No!. That doesn't answer Byers at all. You provided three reasons Evolution is a fact. He wants to know why its a theory. Try this, Bobby: 1. It explains all the observed facts of evolution. 2. It makes testable predictions. 3. It is consonantly being modified as new evidence is discovered. Next unanswerable question, Bobby?
You didn't give three reasons why its a theory. Those were categories and not reasons for why evolutionary biology is to be classified as a scientific theory as they classify them. Name one and remember the great claims of the "theory".

Robert Byers · 18 April 2014

phhht said:
Robert Byers said:
Your just repeating it is a theory backed up with good evidences. first things first. why is evolution a theory of science ?
Because it is a comprehensive explanation of an aspect of nature (biology) that is supported by a vast body of empirical evidence. That is what we mean by a theory in science.
Whats your top three evidences, se excellent, as to qualify evolution as a theory and not just a hypothesis dreamt up in the old days?! Wiki doesn't say either!
There are no "top three" pieces of evidence which qualify the Theory of Evolution for its designation as a theory of science. Instead there are hundreds, thousands, hundreds of thousands of such observations. Each and every one is explained by the ToE. One reason the ToE is regarded as a work of genius is because it explains phenomena which appear to be entirely unrelated. Examples include fossil hominid skulls, sickle cell anemia, why speckled moths change color in the presence of coal dust, why the beaks of the Galapagos finches change size, molecular evidence for common ancestry, and myriad other such facts of nature. The ToE explains them.
if its a work of genius then it shouldn't be hard to name three or one TO JUSIFY it as a scientific theory. A theory of biology requires substantive material to back up its a theory. not just a hypothesis claiming to join bits of data. Genesis joins bits of data but we don't call it a theory of science. Although its the truth.

Rolf · 18 April 2014

Since this thread already is contaminated beyond salvation;

Robert: Evolution is the only viable explantation of the evidence. Call it whatever you like, science, heresy or whatever.

Now tell us how and why Genesis is - not true - but "the truth"?

The "bits of data" joined sounds interesting, tell us more about them!

Keelyn · 18 April 2014

Robert Byers said:
phhht said:
Robert Byers said:
Your just repeating it is a theory backed up with good evidences. first things first. why is evolution a theory of science ?
Because it is a comprehensive explanation of an aspect of nature (biology) that is supported by a vast body of empirical evidence. That is what we mean by a theory in science.
Whats your top three evidences, se excellent, as to qualify evolution as a theory and not just a hypothesis dreamt up in the old days?! Wiki doesn't say either!
There are no "top three" pieces of evidence which qualify the Theory of Evolution for its designation as a theory of science. Instead there are hundreds, thousands, hundreds of thousands of such observations. Each and every one is explained by the ToE. One reason the ToE is regarded as a work of genius is because it explains phenomena which appear to be entirely unrelated. Examples include fossil hominid skulls, sickle cell anemia, why speckled moths change color in the presence of coal dust, why the beaks of the Galapagos finches change size, molecular evidence for common ancestry, and myriad other such facts of nature. The ToE explains them.
if its a work of genius then it shouldn't be hard to name three or one TO JUSIFY it as a scientific theory. A theory of biology requires substantive material to back up its a theory. not just a hypothesis claiming to join bits of data. Genesis joins bits of data but we don't call it a theory of science. Although its the truth.
Booby, give one reason to justify the Standard Model as a scientific theory. Or, do you contend that it is not a scientific theory? Then do the same for quantum chromodynamics and field theory. Just one reason each why they should or should not qualify as scientific theories. Now, demonstrate again why evolution does not qualify as a scientific theory. Explain what definition criteria evolution fails to meet that the others do (that is, if you even consider the SM, QCD, and QFT scientific theories).

phhht · 18 April 2014

Robert Byers said: if its a work of genius then it shouldn't be hard to name three or one TO JUSIFY it as a scientific theory. A theory of biology requires substantive material to back up its a theory. not just a hypothesis claiming to join bits of data. Genesis joins bits of data but we don't call it a theory of science. Although its the truth.
Look, stupid, the ToE is NOT JUSTIFIED AS A SCIENTIFIC THEORY BY PIECES OF EVIDENCE. It is justified by its extremely powerful EXPLANATORY POWER. The hundreds of thousands of pieces of evidence are ALL EXPLAINED BY THE SAME ToE. And if you think Genesis is the truth, you're a delusional loon.

fnxtr · 18 April 2014

There's no point shouting at Bobby. He's intellectually deaf.

https://me.yahoo.com/a/JxVN0eQFqtmgoY7wC1cZM44ET_iAanxHQmLgYgX_Zhn8#57cad · 18 April 2014

fnxtr said: There's no point shouting at Bobby. He's intellectually deaf.
Hard of thinking. Glen Davidson

Just Bob · 18 April 2014

https://me.yahoo.com/a/JxVN0eQFqtmgoY7wC1cZM44ET_iAanxHQmLgYgX_Zhn8#57cad said:
fnxtr said: There's no point shouting at Bobby. He's intellectually deaf.
Hard of thinking. Glen Davidson
The natural consequence of being soft-headed.

Helena Constantine · 21 April 2014

Robert Byers said:
Helena Constantine said:
Dave Luckett said: Three "evidences" says Robert, in his version of English. One. All living things reproduce with variation, and the variations are themselves heritable. Observed fact. Two. All variations, however slight, are neutral, advantageous, or disadvantageous. Logically necessary, but also observed fact. Three. Advantageous variations tend to be selected by the environment (and sometimes by other factors), while neutral ones are not selected and disadvantageous ones tend to be culled. Logically necessary, but also observed fact, confirmed by countless field studies. The emergent effect of these confirmed, reconfirmed, endlessly repeated observations is necessarily the theory of evolution. That was the evidence that Darwin saw and led, and the necessary logical deduction he made. It was good science then, and still is. This is somewhat like the Rabbi Hillel's reply when asked to explain the Torah while "he stood on one foot". He said, "That which is hateful to you, do not do to another. The rest is commentary", but he added, "Now go and study". If Byers actually wanted to know, he'd go and study. He doesn't and he won't, of course.
No, No!. That doesn't answer Byers at all. You provided three reasons Evolution is a fact. He wants to know why its a theory. Try this, Bobby: 1. It explains all the observed facts of evolution. 2. It makes testable predictions. 3. It is consonantly being modified as new evidence is discovered. Next unanswerable question, Bobby?
You didn't give three reasons why its a theory. Those were categories and not reasons for why evolutionary biology is to be classified as a scientific theory as they classify them. Name one and remember the great claims of the "theory".
Actually those are the three reasons why its a theory, but you don't recognize them because you don't understand what a theory is. Have you considered that? Your confused use of the word "categories" ought to show you that your thinking here is muddled. Try to think to yourself what you meant by it. I bet you can't really say. No individual piece of evidence, as you seem to think, proves a theory true, there is no missing link waiting to be discovered. Rather a theory is a theory because it offers a falsifiable explanation of all the evidence. Can you comprehend this? Tiktalik, ring species, and the consilience between trees of life constructed from phenotype and from genetics are all powerful pieces of evidence that evolution is a fact, but none of them prove the theory alone--they can't in the nature of things. However,you could falsify it with a single piece of evidence that the theory cannot explain (a fossil rabbit in Cambrian rock strata, for instance), but no such evidence has ever been produced. Doesn't it tell you something that you cannot submit now a single piece of evidence yourself that is not explained by evolution?

DS · 21 April 2014

As for creationism, in any of it's many transparent disguises:

1. It explains none of the observed facts.

2. It makes no testable predictions.

3. It is has never been modified as new evidence is discovered (only superficially modified when court decisions are handed down).

When Bobby can get his mind around these simple facts, maybe he will begin to see the error of his ways. Until then he can blubber his unique brand of idiocy all he wants, he isn't fooling anyone.

TomS · 21 April 2014

DS said: As for creationism, in any of it's many transparent disguises: 1. It explains none of the observed facts. 2. It makes no testable predictions. 3. It is has never been modified as new evidence is discovered (only superficially modified when court decisions are handed down). When Bobby can get his mind around these simple facts, maybe he will begin to see the error of his ways. Until then he can blubber his unique brand of idiocy all he wants, he isn't fooling anyone.
4. It does not attempt to describe what happened, if it wasn't "naturalistic evolution" going on; nor how the creator/designers did it (what materials and methods); nor why things turned out this way, given the vast (if not literally infinite) number of things that they might of done; nor where; nor even the difference between Omphalism. Intelligent Design does not even say when or who.

prongs · 21 April 2014

DS said: As for creationism, in any of it's many transparent disguises: 1. It explains none of the observed facts. 2. It makes no testable predictions. 3. It is has never been modified as new evidence is discovered (only superficially modified when court decisions are handed down).
Creationism is the end of Knowledge, the end of Science, by which I mean it puts an end to Inquiry. It says, "We need dig no further." "God did it, He said it, I believe it, that settles it." "Creation Science" is reduced to counting the number of "kinds" on the Ark, and to counting the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin. No need to ask, "Just how does a Creator turn clay into a Man?" "It's a miracle." That's the answer. Nothing else to say, except, "Hallelujah!" If there's more to "Creation Science" than that perhaps Bobby can elucidate.

Scott F · 21 April 2014

I have an answer for Robert: one hard piece of evidence that supports the Theory of Evolution:

Tiktaalik

[ If you haven't watched the videos yet, I think they are excellent. Very well done, and very informative. Neil Shubin is my new favoritist science spokesman! ]

I'm not talking about the creature or the fossil itself. That's almost beside the point (of this response).

A Scientific "Theory" is a "Theory" because (in part) it is useful in making predictions. Neil Shubin (and his colleagues) used the Theory of Evolution to predict that if they explored a certain valley in Canada which no one had ever visited before, that they would be likely to find a creature that would represent a species that was transitional between fish and reptiles. This prediction of the Theory of Evolution proved to be correct.

Now you may not believe that what they found represents what they claim. That doesn't even matter, because that's not the point. What they found is unique (no one had found anything quite like it before), and (most importantly) what they found was what they said they were looking for, in exactly the spot on the Earth where the Theory of Evolution said they should find it.

That is an example of what makes Evolution a "Theory". It makes testable predictions about the world, which more often than not turn out to be "true" predictions. Shubin used the ToE to make the prediction that they would find a fossil like this, in this valley. And they did.

Robert, name one prediction made by creationism that, after experimentation, turned out to be true. However, this prediction has to be something that was not known at the time the prediction was made, and it has to be something that the Theory of Evolution would not have predicted.

Scott F · 21 April 2014

If I were a Creation "Scientist", the most obvious prediction of "The Flood" related to life is that we should expect to see the various species of life radiating outward from a central point on the globe. Just by looking at the distribution of existing "native" species, and at the fossil finds, we should be easily able to identify where on the Earth Noah's Ark must have grounded. Do we find such radiating distributions of life on the planet?

No, we do not.

Can Creationism explain why kangaroos and lots of closely related marsupials are found in Australia, and no where else on Earth?

No, it can't.

Can Creationism explain why there are penguins on every continent south of the equator, but none around the north pole, yet (conversely) there are polar bears around the north pole, but not the south?

No, it can't.

Can Creationism explain ring species? Dinosaurs? Why blind cave fish have the genes to make eyes? Why chickens have the genes to make teeth?

Nope, nope, nope, and nope. All it can do is to deny any and all evidence found for any of these things.

https://me.yahoo.com/a/UZTyNgIV2NoJdpo6Kaxq0gI.KQ--#90715 · 22 April 2014

of course prongs would be wrong. "God did it!" is the first question, not the last. The second question is "How did He do it?" The answer is..........."Information". And plenty, plenty of science is being done around the question of information and how it related to life's processes. And "God did it' lends a helping hand in conceptualizing information as a real, independent entity as opposed to being a consequence of matter in motion. God believing just happens to be a workable, useful, positive, practical idea. So. God. Science. Good match. Newton thought so. Einstein was warming to the idea. Guess God's death is a wee bit premature after all.
prongs said:
DS said: As for creationism, in any of it's many transparent disguises: 1. It explains none of the observed facts. 2. It makes no testable predictions. 3. It is has never been modified as new evidence is discovered (only superficially modified when court decisions are handed down).
Creationism is the end of Knowledge, the end of Science, by which I mean it puts an end to Inquiry. It says, "We need dig no further." "God did it, He said it, I believe it, that settles it." "Creation Science" is reduced to counting the number of "kinds" on the Ark, and to counting the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin. No need to ask, "Just how does a Creator turn clay into a Man?" "It's a miracle." That's the answer. Nothing else to say, except, "Hallelujah!" If there's more to "Creation Science" than that perhaps Bobby can elucidate.

Dave Luckett · 22 April 2014

And “God did it’ lends a helping hand in conceptualizing information as a real, independent entity as opposed to being a consequence of matter in motion.
Regrettably, it's neither.

prongs · 22 April 2014

I said "elucidate" not "obfuscate." But then what else have we come to expect from creationists?

SWT · 22 April 2014

Is this homecoming week or something? Biggy's made a brief appearance on the BW, as has Bozorgmehr, and now, it looks like SteveP is back.

SteveP, of course, has neither new content nor any links to respectable peer-reviewed scientific papers that make a scientific case for a "designer".

DS · 22 April 2014

Information? Really? So exactly how is this information created? Where is it created? Why is it created? How can we predict where it will pop up next? How can we explain why it popped up where it did? Why do you think it could not be produced by natural processes? Are you getting extra credit points or are you just being obtuse for no reason?

Have you read the book on understanding evolution? Do you have any comments that have to do with the topic of this thread? Are you just a hit and run science wanna be who can't answer a simple question?

Scott F · 22 April 2014

https://me.yahoo.com/a/UZTyNgIV2NoJdpo6Kaxq0gI.KQ--#90715 said: And "God did it' lends a helping hand in conceptualizing information as a real, independent entity as opposed to being a consequence of matter in motion.
How, exactly, does "God did it" help? Do you have a bottle of "God did it" on the shelf that you can sprinkle on recalcitrant experiments to make them work the way you want to? Do you happen to have a "God did it" meter that lets you detect the invisible hand of God changing the speed of light, or changing the decay rates of atomic nuclei, or moving continents at a good walking pace? What precisely does "God did it" bring to the scientific study of the world? How does it bring more precision or better understanding to our measurements? Where is the "God did it" variable in Einstein's equations? In Newton's equations? Newton thought he had found the hand of "God did it" in the motions of Mercury, until later calculations showed that God did not live in that particular gap after all. "God did it" is simply a religious shorthand for "I don't know". The problem for religion is that the equivalent Scientific statement is, "We don't know, yet." The gaps in which your god can act are getting smaller every year. I suggest you watch these videos if you believe that "information", such as the number "2" is a real, independent entity.

https://me.yahoo.com/a/JxVN0eQFqtmgoY7wC1cZM44ET_iAanxHQmLgYgX_Zhn8#57cad · 22 April 2014

And plenty, plenty of science is being done around the question of information and how it related to life’s processes. And “God did it’ lends a helping hand in conceptualizing information as a real, independent entity as opposed to being a consequence of matter in motion.
Except that no real science involving information either resorts to, or is aided by, "God did it." Indeed, why research information if that's the "answer"? There is a great deal of information in the world, none of which can be traced back to God or to any single unknown entity. "Conceptualizing information as an entity" isn't even a sensible string of words. Glen Davidson

phhht · 22 April 2014

https://me.yahoo.com/a/UZTyNgIV2NoJdpo6Kaxq0gI.KQ--#90715 said: of course prongs would be wrong. "God did it!" is the first question, not the last. The second question is "How did He do it?" The answer is..........."Information". And plenty, plenty of science is being done around the question of information and how it related to life's processes. And "God did it' lends a helping hand in conceptualizing information as a real, independent entity as opposed to being a consequence of matter in motion. God believing just happens to be a workable, useful, positive, practical idea. So. God. Science. Good match. Newton thought so. Einstein was warming to the idea. Guess God's death is a wee bit premature after all.
Define "god." Say how to detect it. Say how to measure it. Say how to tell "god" from its absence. But you can't. Gods are no more detectable than Harry Potter, no more measurable than Captain America, no more useful than The Walking Dead. Gods are, as Laplace pointed out, utterly dispensible. Gods are fictional characters, not real ones. I don't understand why you crazies can't tell the difference.

eric · 22 April 2014

https://me.yahoo.com/a/UZTyNgIV2NoJdpo6Kaxq0gI.KQ--#90715 said: "God did it!" is the first question, not the last.
Its not a question at all - its an assertion with an excalmation point used to try and give it more emphasis. The question form would be: "did God do it?" There is no evidence supporting a "yes" answer, while there is lots of evidence supporting the "evolution did it" answer.
The second question is "How did He do it?" The answer is..........."Information".
How exactly does "information" answer questions about the origin of species or of life?
"God did it' lends a helping hand in conceptualizing information as a real, independent entity as opposed to being a consequence of matter in motion.
OTOH, if information IS just a consequence of matter creating patterns, then the assumption or hypothesis "God did it" would be leading us down a completely wrong track, wouldn't you agree? IOW, it's only really helpful now if it turns out to be right in the future.
Guess God's death is a wee bit premature after all.
IDers like Dembski and Behe can keep positing their designer hypothesis. Mainstream scientists will continue to have no need of it. And we'll see who comes up with the most useful inventions and most effective models of how things work.

https://me.yahoo.com/a/JxVN0eQFqtmgoY7wC1cZM44ET_iAanxHQmLgYgX_Zhn8#57cad · 22 April 2014

eric said:
https://me.yahoo.com/a/UZTyNgIV2NoJdpo6Kaxq0gI.KQ--#90715 said: "God did it!" is the first question, not the last.
Its not a question at all - its an assertion with an excalmation point used to try and give it more emphasis. The question form would be: "did God do it?" There is no evidence supporting a "yes" answer, while there is lots of evidence supporting the "evolution did it" answer.
It's kind of the opposite of Jeopardy, it's a question in the form of an answer, or anyway, it purports to be an answer when all it does is raise questions (except to your average creationist, who wants nothing more). But whether "God did it" is the first and only question creationists normally raise, since "it's magic" is basically the desired conclusion. The first scientific question to be asked is, what caused the present organisms to exist? Reproduction being the answer. With that answer in hand, we might then wish to ask, how do we know if organisms are related? If we find shared specifics, we have our answer, as in if we used DNA to determine parentage of an individual organism. But where does that method cease to be legitimate? The only obvious reasons would be if we started to find chimerical combinations (sans lateral transfers of DNA) of specific inheritances, aside from hybrids and the like, or if novelties arose without antecedents, those sorts of things. Since we don't find chimerical combinations, other than via known means (retroviruses being another), or the novelties at least occasionally expected of designers, well, yeah, we can determine shared ancestry by examining DNA (lateral gene movements included), and from the results of DNA (morphology shows ancestry as well). Information does inform us. Creationists just aren't willing to properly process what information tells us about shared ancestry--like that it doesn't require or, apparently, use magic. Glen Davidson

Helena Constantine · 22 April 2014

https://me.yahoo.com/a/UZTyNgIV2NoJdpo6Kaxq0gI.KQ--#90715 said: of course prongs would be wrong. "God did it!" is the first question, not the last. The second question is "How did He do it?" The answer is..........."Information". And plenty, plenty of science is being done around the question of information and how it related to life's processes. And "God did it' lends a helping hand in conceptualizing information as a real, independent entity as opposed to being a consequence of matter in motion. God believing just happens to be a workable, useful, positive, practical idea. So. God. Science. Good match. Newton thought so. Einstein was warming to the idea. Guess God's death is a wee bit premature after all.
prongs said:
DS said: As for creationism, in any of it's many transparent disguises: 1. It explains none of the observed facts. 2. It makes no testable predictions. 3. It is has never been modified as new evidence is discovered (only superficially modified when court decisions are handed down).
Creationism is the end of Knowledge, the end of Science, by which I mean it puts an end to Inquiry. It says, "We need dig no further." "God did it, He said it, I believe it, that settles it." "Creation Science" is reduced to counting the number of "kinds" on the Ark, and to counting the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin. No need to ask, "Just how does a Creator turn clay into a Man?" "It's a miracle." That's the answer. Nothing else to say, except, "Hallelujah!" If there's more to "Creation Science" than that perhaps Bobby can elucidate.
The answer is not "information. Did god use a biological laboratory to construct genomes the way scientists are beginning to do, or, as the Bible says, did he use magic (He spoke and it was so)? IF he used a laboratory, what did he create? The first replicator, or the chickens with genes for teeth, and if the latter, why did he do that?

shjcpr · 23 April 2014

Helena, why would you think God 'speaking and it was so' is some sort of magic. Is this an attempt to ridicule a reality you have trouble conceptualizing?

Is not magic just undiscovered science? It seems airplanes were magic until they were not. Smart phones were magic until they were not.

I dont think "God spoke and it was so " will stay magic for too much longer. After all, He did stay that there was nothing that would not be revealed.

All magic needs is a little patience. Give magic a chance, would you?

You wont regret it.

shjcpr · 23 April 2014

Eric,

Game on!

Dave Luckett · 23 April 2014

shjcpr said: Helena, why would you think God 'speaking and it was so' is some sort of magic. Is this an attempt to ridicule a reality you have trouble conceptualizing?
No, it's an accurate description of an undemonstrated assertion.
Is not magic just undiscovered science?
No. It's either something that doesn't exist, or something that can't be demonstrated to exist, which comes to much the same thing.
It seems airplanes were magic until they were not. Smart phones were magic until they were not.
Now that you have demonstrated your knowledge of aeronautics and electronics, why not have a go at biology?
I dont think "God spoke and it was so " will stay magic for too much longer. After all, He did stay that there was nothing that would not be revealed.
And now that you've admitted that "God spoke and it was so" actually is magic, would you care to lever your foot out of your mouth and try "exegesis" for five points?
All magic needs is a little patience. Give magic a chance, would you?
What magic needs is to actually work. All humankind gave magic a chance for thousands of years, and little came of it. Most people were still engaged in stoop labour fourteen hours a day, and lucky if they made it to forty. Four hundred years of reality, and what do you know? Reality works better! Who'da thunk it?
You wont regret it.
Like the Ghost Shirts, or the Boxers, or the Congolese Ninjas, all of whom used magic to ward off bullets, you mean? Or maybe the Heaven's Gate lot? Or the Branch Dravidians? The Children's Crusaders, now there was a bunch that gave magic a chance. Then there was every millenarian moron from Hillary of Poictiers to Warren Jeffs. Or should we include you in that list, too?

shjcpr · 23 April 2014

Scott F,

I hope hou dont realyy believe he stuff in that video you linked to. Geez. His own little talk went right over his head.

Does he think that anything that resides in his mind is not real??? Were the Wright brothers imagining of human flight fantasy. They simply actualized the reality that was formerly residing between their ears.

Tribbles of course exist. They are currently residing between that guy's ears. Who knows, with a little help from some creative scientists, they'll come out of their noodly residence and pay you a visit.

So yeah, the number 2 is quite real and lives in lots of places. Viva le 2.

Bobsie · 23 April 2014

shjcpr said:Is not magic just undiscovered science? It seems airplanes were magic until they were not. Smart phones were magic until they were not.
However, all your examples of previously accepted "magic" did not require violation of any natural laws to be realized. I would say anytime one can suspend any and all natural laws, you're definitely doing magic.

Dave Luckett · 23 April 2014

I think shjcpr is mainlining from here: http://sebpearce.com/bullshit/

Either that, or it's an uncannily accurate recapitulation of his concepts.

DS · 23 April 2014

shjcpr wrote:

"Tribbles of course exist. They are currently residing between that guy’s ears."

Same with god. She only exists between your ears.

Let me ask you a question. Do you get extra credit for winning an argument, or is just having one enough?

fnxtr · 23 April 2014

Dave Luckett said: I think shjcpr is mainlining from here: http://sebpearce.com/bullshit/ Either that, or it's an uncannily accurate recapitulation of his concepts.
THIS is delicious.

eric · 23 April 2014

shjcpr said: Is not magic just undiscovered science? It seems airplanes were magic until they were not. Smart phones were magic until they were not.
I am not sure equating ignorance of mechanism with "magic" saves the concept of God. If you're implying that God manipulates forces and materials using/by obeying the laws of physics, then you are giving the laws of physics primacy over God. You're making the "God is pious" argument from the Euthyphro, just applied to physics rather than ethics. Most people reject that notion of God as unsufficiently omnipotent. OTOH if you didn't mean to imply that - if you think God breaks all laws or is beyond laws of physics - then you're basically admitting Helena's point: that creation was a sort of magic.
All magic needs is a little patience. Give magic a chance, would you?
We will give it exactly the same patience and credit that we give any unevidenced hypothesis. To wit: after you come up with evidence for it, we'll consider it. Not before. You should appreciate that. It's science treating religion with the exact same respect and dignity as any nonreligious scientific hypothesis.

eric · 23 April 2014

Dave Luckett said: Like the Ghost Shirts, or the Boxers, or the Congolese Ninjas, all of whom used magic to ward off bullets, you mean? Or maybe the Heaven's Gate lot? Or the Branch Dravidians? The Children's Crusaders, now there was a bunch that gave magic a chance. Then there was every millenarian moron from Hillary of Poictiers to Warren Jeffs. Or should we include you in that list, too?
And let's not forget Peter Delly's literal takedown of Yellow Bamboo chi fighting, or Sanal Edamaruku laughing on camera while a tantric magician attacks him with a "death curse." We give magic lots of chances. Its failure is often good for a laugh.

eric · 23 April 2014

fnxtr said:
Dave Luckett said: I think shjcpr is mainlining from here: http://sebpearce.com/bullshit/ Either that, or it's an uncannily accurate recapitulation of his concepts.
THIS is delicious.
Yeah I agree. Props to the designer.

Scott F · 23 April 2014

shjcpr said: Is not magic just undiscovered science? It seems airplanes were magic until they were not. Smart phones were magic until they were not.
Your question, and both statements are false. The statement about airplanes could only be true if you believe that birds fly by using "magic". Even the ancient Greeks knew that the only thing preventing humans from flying was a bit of engineering. That bit of engineering happened to be beyond the materials science of the time, but they realized that there was nothing "magic" about it: build wings that are big enough and light enough, and humans can fly. Daedalus was essentially correct. He just needed some aluminum tubing and nylon. No violation of physical "laws" was ever required. Archimedes might find a 747 to be amazing, but he would certainly never believe it was "magic". I believe that quote you are looking for is from Arthur C. Clarke's third law:

“Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.”

Note he is saying the opposite of what you were saying. You claim that "magic" is just advanced science. In fact, Clarke's statement is that advanced science can appear to be "magic". Those are two very different statements. I can easily imagine some sort of anti-gravity device that would allow me to hover above the surface of the Earth. I don't imagine for a moment that it would be "magic". It might require some physics we haven't discovered yet, but that's not the same thing. However, if I were to be able to float above the surface of the Earth through the power of my will alone, or if something could create the Earth out of nothing but "information" alone, or if something could stop and reverse the Earth's rotation in such a way that no one on the Earth would notice, then that would indeed be magic. Now you're talking Green Lantern or Aladdin kind of magic.

Helena Constantine · 23 April 2014

shjcpr said: Scott F, I hope hou dont realyy believe he stuff in that video you linked to. Geez. His own little talk went right over his head. Does he think that anything that resides in his mind is not real??? Were the Wright brothers imagining of human flight fantasy. They simply actualized the reality that was formerly residing between their ears. Tribbles of course exist. They are currently residing between that guy's ears. Who knows, with a little help from some creative scientists, they'll come out of their noodly residence and pay you a visit. So yeah, the number 2 is quite real and lives in lots of places. Viva le 2.
Are you in a contest with Byers to be the stupidest poster here? My core professional competence is the history of magic int he Roman Empire. I do not to be lectured about it by someone who doesn't have the first idea of what magic is. From my perspective the most use definition is as the religion of the other, a marker of social deviance. But another generally accepted definition is the one I cited: the idea that ritual action (including spoken spells) result in the outcome wished for by the enactor--this is not the same as science that we don't understand. It is a very simple concept that is totally different from science and which happens to be demonstrably false (at least no viable claim of evidence of its efficacy has ever been made). The first chapter of Genesis is a classic example of. God speaks and the things he says happens. Listen to the clearly--the power of the words make things happen. There is no idea in Genesis, as you imply, that god was a space alien with an Acme sun-ignitor and flipped the on-switch and Adam just didn't understand what was going on (run that by Ken Ham and see what he thinks of it, by the way). This is even more foolish than the Genesis author's belief in magic. They did nothing to make a fantasy a reality. That isn't how science works. But you evidently understand neither science nor magic and have the two hopelessly confused. They worked to solve mathematical-physical problems. The way the Wright Brother's proceeded was to discover that the generally equations that described aerodynamics in the 1890s were wrong, and then rewrite the equation on the basis of experiment (pretty good work for high school graduates). Then with the correct equations, they were able to design an airfoil of a usable shape. To make it clear to you: magic is not an undiscovered technology; it is a hypothesis about how the world works that is very different from science's hypothesis and it has been falsified. But I don't suppose you are either corrigible or shamble.

prongs · 23 April 2014

One counter-example destroys the hypothesis. Consider Alchemy (turning lead into gold). Thousands of practitioners, throughout the centuries, sought the magic formula to transform lead into gold.

Science undiscovered? Nay. Alchemy is magic that can never become real science, nuclear reactors notwithstanding. Although it may be possible to transmute lead into gold inside a nuclear reactor, the economics and the yield are prohibitive. No science will ever make abundant gold out of lead. (And if it did, gold would become almost worthless, about like lead.)

So our new friend is wrong. Magic is not science undiscovered - as history shows us so abundantly. And neither is creationism science - as every test has found it wanting.

Scott F · 23 April 2014

shjcpr said: Scott F, I hope hou dont realyy believe he stuff in that video you linked to. Geez. His own little talk went right over his head. Does he think that anything that resides in his mind is not real??? Were the Wright brothers imagining of human flight fantasy. They simply actualized the reality that was formerly residing between their ears. Tribbles of course exist. They are currently residing between that guy's ears. Who knows, with a little help from some creative scientists, they'll come out of their noodly residence and pay you a visit. So yeah, the number 2 is quite real and lives in lots of places. Viva le 2.
Well, I'm glad you listened to the video. I'm sorry that you didn't understand a word of it. I'm no philosopher myself, but if you had understood anything he was saying, you would understand that it doesn't matter whether I or you believe what he said or not. As I understand it, Epistemology is a matter of agreed-upon definitions and rules. If you don't like his definitions of words like "reality", if you don't like his rules for evaluating "truth" statements, feel free to invent some of your own. But, as I understand the author's definition of Pragmatism, you then have to defend your chosen Epistemology. Are your definitions practical? Do they provide useful processes for judging the effectiveness of actions? You ask: "Does he think that anything that resides in his mind not real??" In fact, that is his very first axiom: Anything in his mind is real, by definition, because there is no way to judge it otherwise. It's what he calls an "internal reality". Does everything in his mind correspond to an "external reality"? That's a different question. "Tribbles" of course, do not exist in any known "external reality". I may be the POTUS in my "internal reality", but that doesn't mean it has any correspondence to the known "external reality". And simply believing that I'm POTUS, or Jesus does not help me. I suggest that you go back and listen again for comprehension. You seem to have missed the first time every critical point that he was trying to make.

Henry J · 23 April 2014

To sum up: effective error correction is a necessary part of science.

Rolf · 24 April 2014

shjcpr said: Helena, why would you think God 'speaking and it was so' is some sort of magic. Is this an attempt to ridicule a reality you have trouble conceptualizing? Is not magic just undiscovered science? It seems airplanes were magic until they were not. Smart phones were magic until they were not. I dont think "God spoke and it was so " will stay magic for too much longer. After all, He did stay that there was nothing that would not be revealed. All magic needs is a little patience. Give magic a chance, would you? You wont regret it.
Nonsense. Cell phones never was magic except maybe they might have appeared like that to some obscure tribes deep in the still uncharted (any left?) spots on the globe. Are you a tribe-man? The history of magic is as follows: There was a time when man didn't know squat about the world around him. But thing did happen, and man therefore quite reasonably reasoned that things that happen must have an explanation. All the things man knew like beating your kids make them cry or killing a snake made it dead taught him the relationship between cause and effect. But nature itself in all its manifestations didn't manifest any causes. To solve that obvious discrepancy, man invented gods. A god for this, another god for that. When the universal god was invented, he took on all the chores previously attributed to lesser gods. It wasn't until man had amassed enough knowledge and insight that he slowly began to realize that the causes are built-in in nature. Nature contains all it's own causes. Rains are not sent by a benevolent - or sometimes angry, rain-god. The rains are just a natural part of the water cycle. We have as per this writing yet not detected the existence of any magician operating in the world; what we have learned is that even invisible particles move by natural forces. What's more, the law of action and reaction tells us that a mover always will feel the reverse force of what he's doing. How could God absorb the recoil from all his more or less terrible deeds? The bottom line is of course that magic is nonsense, you'd have to wait at least for a million years for magic to move your car. Now you know what to do with your magic, don't you?

Dale · 24 April 2014

I thought Robert Byers was only allowed one comment on a blog entry and that we were forbidden to respond to him because that would be feeding the troll.

In any case, he, like all other Creationist bigots who come here, is a pathological liar. He lies because that is what he does for entertainment here. Most normal people play computer games like World of Warcraft for that.

Dale Husband, the Honorable Skeptic

shjcpr · 24 April 2014

Hmm. Curious where my last post went. It was posted but is no where to be found. Evidence of its existence has been recorded, however.

Is this what we should descrive as a form of "benign censorship"? Plausible deniability?

ah, must be a case of "quota filled". No extensions? No gimmies? No bonus time?

Catcha later, people.

eric · 24 April 2014

shjcpr said: Hmm. Curious where my last post went.
Sigh. There are a couple of informal rules of the internet I really wish people would learn. 1. A post being lost/unposted does not imply malice. Computer systems are not perfect - and neither are you. Either could have made an error resulting in a non-post. 2. A poster being away does not imply rudeness, cowardice, or that you 'won.' Everyone has a life. Blog posting may be a part of it, but for 99% of us its not a big part of it. 3. Don't whine about site advertisements, they are largely out of the control of the blogger. 4. Don't whine about blog topic choice, that is wholly in the control of the blogger...and it should be, because it's his/her site, not yours. 5. Practice dialogue rather than monologue. This means, among other things... 5a. Don't drive-by. If you start a conversation, try and be responsive to those who participate in it. 5b. Don't spam or use someone else's blog as your own personal advertisement space. 5c. Your pet peeve is not our pet peeve. Don't bring it up unless its relevant to the post. If we all follow these simple rules, our contributions to the net will sound a lot more reasonable and a lot less like the narcissism of a 14-year-old drama king/queen.

KlausH · 25 April 2014

fnxtr said:
Dave Luckett said: I think shjcpr is mainlining from here: http://sebpearce.com/bullshit/ Either that, or it's an uncannily accurate recapitulation of his concepts.
THIS is delicious.
That site makes my head hurt.